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to introduce my friend Jack. So I wrote a joke for you. It's not good, but I'm going to tell it to you anyway, because any joke is good at 8:30 in the morning. This is where I'm hedging my bets.

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So there was a Presbyterian minister, and she was sitting in a bar on her day off. And one of her astute parishioners came into the bar and said, Pastor, I'm so glad that I ran into you. because I wanted to thank you for that marvelous sermon you preached on Sunday. And the pastor smiled and she said, Why, thank you.

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I'm so glad that was meaningful to you. And the parishioner went on and he said, You know, I never really thought much about the importance of church unity before. And I've really taken to heart what you said, that I need to be in conversation with people who are different than I am. And I need to make sure that we stay in fellowship, so when we sing

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We are one in the Spirit, one in the Lord. That's not just sort of, you know, pie in the sky. That's actuality. And the pastor kind of was half listening and said, Oh, yeah, that's great.

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I'm so glad, so glad that my sermon was helpful to you. And then the parishioner said, Well, you know, now that we're here together with some free time, There is actually something that I disagree with you about. And I was wondering, could I just pull up a chair and maybe we could sit and talk about it for a while?

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And the pastor said, Well, now you wouldn't want to go too far. Now, this is my day off. Jack is someone who goes too far when it comes to the issue of church unity. He doesn't just talk in abstraction about the unity of the church.

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He goes after it tooth and nail. uh sometimes even probably to the point of uh of getting on our nerves you know he sits down with people with whom he disagrees uh he invites them to write for the Presbyterian Outlook he invites them to come and speak at the churches where he serves he is in the truest sense a peacemaker in our denomination and in our church at large and as we know Jesus said Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called the children of God. We welcome you, the Reverend Dr.

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Jack Haberer, child of God, back into our pulpit today to talk about, well, a pretty boring topic, sex and death. Welcome, Jack. Thank you, Cindy. It's not sex and death, it's Eros and Thanatos.

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I had some years in Pentecostalism, and in those years, we were very much used to the call response deal that we'd learned from the African-American churches. And even though we were majority white, there was, with the help of others, mixed races and ethnic groups, they really got down the rhythm. I never did. But I could use some response today, even if I don't know how to give the call like Paul does.

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Paul Roberts, unbelievable, incredible preaching that he has brought us. So you feel free to give some response, particularly along the lines of, help him, Jesus. Jesus, help him. Jesus, he really needs help.

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Come on, Jesus, come through. Come on now, Jesus, come on now. Yeah. Yesterday I combined, I crunched seven hours of lectures into one.

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I'm going to only try to do two into one today, although this will be harder, I think, because I'll be pushing all kinds of buttons. But I ask you to bear with me and to hear me out as we consider Eros and Thanatos, an opposite order. Let's deal with death first. Might as well die in the...

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No, never mind. A quick review of what we... Oh, by the way, handouts. I know it's hard to see the screen, both here and elsewhere maybe.

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I will give you handouts today. In fact, there'll be 4 grids, four different spreadsheets you'll get, two that we were working with yesterday and we'll finish today, but two others specific to today's topics. They will be for you on the way out. I don't want you reading ahead.

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That's why you can't have them yet, but you can take them with you. Nowhere on those pages is my name to be found, and if you pass it around, I will deny any association with it. Our goal, in simple terms, is to talk about an integrative Christian ethic.

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Excuse me, I'm going to do something to you real quick. I want to turn this computer so I can see what I'm showing you. Okay, an integrative Christian ethic that helps us articulate a truly biblical Christian way of discerning God's will for personal lives and for our life together in Christian community. indeed, in the kingdom of God.

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I'm suggesting that a lot of us, most of us are doing this pretty well most of the time. We just don't know how to articulate it. And so I'm really more after the language with which to give some meaning to it. Where I work, we

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preachers work in the world of words. And as a writer over the last nine years, I did a whole lot more of that, specifically in the written word. And I know that the power of words is the power of everything. So anyway, so we're trying to find words for all of this.

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Toward that end, I said we want to try to be reading the Bible on its own terms. Most importantly, just plain honestly. faithfully, intelligently, treating the Bible's ambiguities as seriously as we treat the Bible's points of clarity and emphasis. Trusting that God has inspired those writers who wrote in such interesting, different, creative, out there kinds of ways to somehow bring God's word to us.

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The onus ultimately is on us to read it, not just to talk about it, but that's part of reading the Bible on its own terms. Also, to categorically try to analyze the texts themselves in terms of their gravity, their specificity, and their negotiability. I didn't quite use those terms yesterday, but that's much of what I was doing, is to ask about all of these different texts, their strength and force and clarity and negotiability and all of that. And also to deduce six particular categories of how to look at these texts regarding

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behavior and actions of what it is we do. Speaking first about the absolutes, which are essentially who God is and what God is all about. God's existence in its essence and God's identity. His primary principle of living, which is to love God with heart, soul, mind, and strength, and to love our neighbor as ourselves.

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Those summary commands put together as summary for Jesus, although obviously referencing Old Testament bases for that. And then particularly from there, getting more specific about the aspirations, that which calls forth from us our very best in some more particular ways. And then from there, looking at those aspirations as how they have become more standardized and our understanding or benchmarks by which we measure or against which we measure our choices, our options, decisions that we would make. And then application, the specific behaviors, particularly as they've been shaped and formed in the tradition, somewhat as a biblical tradition, but also as the growing tradition over the centuries of the church in our differing communities, and so somewhat different in the different Christian communities.

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But then also leaving order, openness, or space for the possibility of approximations and adaptations. Very dangerous words. I don't use exceptions to the rule because that's all the more dangerous. But adaptations and approximations as a way to look at how, consider through that lens how it was that Jesus' original followers, the apostles, the disciples, the writers of the New Testament texts, were interpreting Jesus to their audiences and ultimately

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to us as an audience down the road and many miles away. How did they, was it in fact that they were approximating and adapting the word in that context and modeling for us how we should be approximating and adapting the word into our context, or the words into our context? Well, from there we developed two spreadsheets. I will say that God so loved the world that he did not send spreadsheets.

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But I kind of gave a summary of what it looks like in these categories of thinking to love God, and then in similarly in ways for us to be loving our neighbor as ourselves. Left a couple blank sections there. We'll tackle them and try to fill them in today. But I also want to add one other part of what I would want to say, and that is that whatever we do, we do in community.

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One of the essential lessons for me coming from evangelicalism into Presbyterianism, and in fact, got smacked down on the first version of my dissertation when Ben Johnson said, Jack, it's not all about you. He says, You've got to rework this whole thing. He says, I get being evangelical. That's my roots.

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That's where I come from, too. But it's not about you and Jesus or me and Jesus. It's about us together. and then the living into community.

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And he basically said, you need to go out and read Bonhoeffer. I said, OK, I'll share whatever you want. He said, you read his dissertation. And I said, and that was titled what?

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And he said, Sanctorum Communio. And it's like, oh my, dissertation written by a German with a Latin title. That's not very promising. But I was converted thanks to Communio, Sanctorum Communio.

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I got it and when it comes to discernment of God's will we do that best together because in part we're on the mission together because we do discern and understand better together in the in the Council of many there is wisdom most of the time and our community is to be one of character formation and so in fact on the last part of what I did yesterday about loving one another. I spoke of us as being a people of God, the body of Christ, temple of the Holy Spirit, and we are to be building a community of spiritual, moral, and missional transformation, and filling out part of it that just dropped out of it. And that is that we are to exercise discernment within the faith community, as well as being a leader in the earthly community around us.

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And that means even engaging the political complexities, being loyal oppositions and conscientious objectors by way of an informed conscience. And I do want to mention that point about informed conscience. I'm using that term from the language of Vatican II. Are you familiar with, any of you familiar with Vatican II's treatment of the concept of informed conscience?

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Well, it's not original Vatican II, it goes back in Catholic theology. Look it up. I'd love to give you a whole chapter almost in the book about an informed conscience, but a brilliant, extremely valuable way that the Roman Catholic Church as clear as the Roman centrality is in the formation of its theology, there is a roominess within Roman Catholicism that we Protestants don't usually get in spite of the fact that we protested their narrowness. There's a roominess for having an informed conscience about decision-making

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that's stunning, brilliant, and something for us to be drawing from as we wrestle these questions of our own faith decisions and ethical decisions and moral decisions. So just make a note of that. Go look that up. Or just wait and buy my book when it comes out in a year from now.

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Okay, we're going into the life and death Thanatos question. I need to tell you about Ginger. Ginger was an elderly member of my church, my first church. I was just a couple years into the pastorate.

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Barbie and I had visited her home. She didn't look anywhere near her age. She was a redhead, and she had all of the advantages that came with that. So she looked about 20 or 30 years younger, maybe in her 50s, but she was in her 80s.

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And one Sunday morning, As we were beginning worship, I saw the bright lights of an ambulance pulling up into the church. One of the ushers came up and whispered in my ear, Ginger fell. She's on her way to the hospital.

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Well, I made that announcement. We prayed for her and went on with our worship. After church, I went by the hospital, and she was in ICU, was already on a breathing machine, ventilator, and And they said, she's not doing well.

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We've called for her son. Her son was stationed with the Navy in Pearl Harbor. He was flying out. And so I made a couple of calls back and forth, got the word that he'd be there the next day, Monday morning at around 10 in the morning.

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And so I headed the office about 8, checked up in the hospital. They said she was about 90% brain dead. And I thought, oh no. All I knew at that point about that situation was Karen Quinlan and all of the fights with the U.S.

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Supreme Court about keeping her alive on machines. And we hadn't talked about that in seminary. This was the 1980s. This whole thing about medical ethics was just not in a conversation yet.

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And I was hardcore pro-lifer. I'd have the annual pro-life Sunday in the church and all of that. And I didn't know what to do. I headed out in my car from the church to go meet him as he was due at 10.

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I got there, was heading there to be early. And as I was on my way, loud praying to God for help, because I don't know what in the world I'm doing here, God. A verse of scripture crossed my mind I'd never thought about in this context. A rather familiar one, you've read it many times.

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So God created human beings in his own image. In the image of God, he created them, male and female. He created them. God blessed them and said to them, be fruitful and increase in number.

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Fill the earth and subdue it. Or fresh in memory from King James, be fruitful and multiply. Replenish the earth and subdue it. I recognize that in my mind as the creation mandate or the dominion covenant language that we had used for that in seminary.

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And that, yes, in fact, God gave us a particular authority to create. One of the questions in the pro-life movement that we'd often ask is, who gave you the right to play God and take somebody's life? And suddenly I'm thinking, oh, God did. I mean, or at least God gave us the authority to do what God does best, which is to give life.

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The Creator, so revealed in Genesis chapter one, says, go out and create yourselves. I'm like, oh, and I thought, be fruitful, multiply, replenish, subdue. I thought, uh-oh. Subdue?

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There's A 10-minute ride from the church to the hospital. But suddenly I'm thinking, wait a minute. I never know what to do about all those commands in scripture, about going out to war, commands about death penalty, like not keeping the Sabbath, like we quoted yesterday. And like, how can all that be?

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And wait a minute. God gave some kind of authority to the first humans to subdue. Well, okay, that's for the plant world or for the animal world, but if we're supposed, if the whole context is creating human life, then... Maybe there's a some doing that can go along with that.

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My mind raced and literally I created a spreadsheet in my mind in the next five minutes before getting to the hospital. And when I got there, I thought I had a word that would be the right word to be able to share with Ginger's son. What came out of that was a different way of perceiving my whole relationship with the world, my whole relationship with humanity, our relationship, my sense of our role as humans with humans under the authority of God. And out of that did begin to arise, develop,

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And that is a bigger understanding of all of this. Now Deuteronomy 3 comes to mind. This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death. Blessings and curses.

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Now choose life. So that you and your children may live and you may love the Lord your God. Listen to God's voice and hold fast to God. For the Lord is your life, and God will give you many years in the land God swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

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I quickly started thinking about other life and death situations that we deal with in this life. Self-defense or the defense of another, international conflict, crime and punishment, problem pregnancies and deteriorating health. I thought, oh my, we do have to face a lot of that.

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Life and death questions. And the clear aspiration that's been put before us in Deuteronomy is to choose life. Be life givers, be life builders, life supporters. But as I saw it with her, in her case, oh by the way, yes, that in the case of

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of someone attacking us, Jesus gives us the best words, turn the other cheek or just to flee, get away from it. But what if it's someone else that's being attacked? Or what if in fact the person has so overwhelming force against you that the only way for you to survive is to defend yourself somehow, but all the more so for that other one, whether it be a loved one of yours or a stranger on the street, do you actually really turn the other cheek and go the other way? and then matters of international conflict.

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To choose life is to pursue negotiation and reconciliation to try to bring peace, keep peace before us rather than to succumb to war. And in case of crime and punishment, to do everything we can by way of incarceration, restitution, rehabilitation, to help the person who is erred to recover and see their life redeemed and reconciled by God and for God into the world. And in the case of pregnancy, to do our best to carry, to term, and to raise that child or to put up the child for adoption for someone else to raise so that she or he gets to live a full life.

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In the case of deteriorating health, to exercise and give us medical care as best as possible and to provide hospice care and support as well. But in her case, she was 90% brain dead. And a future of hers would, for her to be alive, would be a life of suffering, of pain, no doubt. There was, from what they're saying already, before I got there, no real hope of recovery, and she was being supported by artificial means.

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What about that? Well, they seemed, had seemed to be kind of extraordinary circumstances. That maybe while I want to be able to give life and certainly resist any shortening of anybody's life, that maybe in extraordinary circumstances, we need to take another look at that. Maybe it's appropriate to discontinue the life support.

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Those are frightening thoughts for me at that stage in my life, because it was so new, you know, that now 80% of all deaths in hospitals are by someone's choice. Only about 20% actually die without someone having a role in that. And those 20% are mostly those who came in an ambulance with EMTs because they were in some kind of an accident. But back then it was totally new.

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Could it be that it's okay to discontinue life support? Well, not right away, but in time I came up with a term, grievous ethical alternative. A grievous ethical alternative. Ethical insofar as it makes sense in the broader Christian ethic, but that it's only and always grievous, not to be entered into lightly.

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But maybe it seemed that that could be appropriate in this situation. Taking a closer look at that, I thought about these other ways of Situations in international conflict in extraordinary circumstances do happen, like the... of a foreign nation or an evil empire that is doing a holocaust, carrying out awful, awful, awful actions of violence against its minorities.

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Could it be that maybe Augustine's just war theory does have some merit within that kind of circumstance as a grievous ethical alternative? And then there's the question of crime and punishment. What about the person that's been the capital criminal, a repeat offender, showing no signs of remorse? Could it be that we can countenance the possibility of capital punishment?

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I will say of all of these categories, this is the hardest one for me to really countenance. I'm not saying I like these, But I'm wondering about how it works within the context of scripture and the exercise, or at least the teaching along those lines. It may be that does become a grievous ethical alternative.

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What about in the case of self-defense when it is life-threatening for you or the other person? Could it be that self-defense or defense of the other is appropriate, even if that means killing the would-be killer? and even in the case of abortion, in those extremer cases like the rape, incest, danger to the mother's life, and severe deformities, severe injury to the child in utero, that maybe there can be the grievous ethical alternative to terminate the pregnancy. Now, I know that this looks like maybe too neat.

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And please don't hear me as being glib because this is painful stuff to talk about and to countenance. I also am well aware that most Christians that I know find at least one or two of those things in the right column to be absolutely incomprehensible. Ironically, we do tend to gravitate toward those who are absolutely against war, absolutely against capital punishment, or on the other hand, absolutely against abortion and absolutely against euthanasia, shortening a person's life or ending medical support.

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I get that. And that's why you can say help them, Jesus. Because these are painful things to be considering, but as an overall framework, I can't help but see some resonance with a lot of the workings and of the scriptures themselves on how they address these matters. For those of you who think we know your philosophy,

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By the way, I've moved away from the label pro-life, not going to the label pro-choice, but pro-ethical. Not that those are not ethical alternatives at all, but that the process of an ethical study and wrestling with these, where we're wrestling with multiple ethical categories is what, well, I began to emerge with these many years ago. And in that, in classical, old style ethical studies, deontological and teleological are always the two that are lifted up.

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And I had one course in college by a Christian deontological ethicist who was absolutely convinced that the Bible is thoroughly and totally deontological. And then in my doctoral program, I took an ethics course by another Christian who was convinced that the Bible was absolutely and totally teleological. They both were brilliant. I agreed with everything both of them said.

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Is it the principle in view? Is it the end in view? Well, there's strong arguments on both sides of that. This kind of, for me, brought them together.

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The principle in view is choosing life. The end in view is looking at the context, the circumstances, the situation. and what's all involved, knowing that you're allowing some nuance, some ambiguity, some complexity, some argument. I got to the hospital early, but the son of Ginger got there earlier.

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And when I got up to her room, she was already dead. They had already decided that it was right to go ahead and discontinue life support. And so where I got to the place where I didn't know what I was doing and now is at least ready to do what I knew well, which is to help a family grieve and to walk through a memorial service, a funeral, a saying farewell. instincts in my pastoral training and my actual favorite thing in ministry of walking through that kind of experience with a family.

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That much I was more familiar with. But Ginger's story in that little window of two days has stuck with me and been swirling in my brain for all of these years in the back of my mind really frankly trying to avoid it because I knew that people will be really troubled, that I would countenance. some of these things I've put in the chart there, but at least I share them with you as a framework to consider, and particularly at least to consider in the conversations among us, wherein we hear others countenancing things that don't seem to make any sense to us, or they seem to think that you're countenancing things that they can't imagine.

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Perhaps this larger framework that holds on to the principle in mind, choose life, be fruitful, multiply, replenish the earth, can also live with looking the end in view and even countenance subdue, subdue, playing not God in the ultimate capital G sense, but living into an authority, a covenant authority that God gave humanity to hold on to very, very carefully and very nervously, never with confidence or surety, lest any of it become glib or easy. But perhaps we can live into the bigger picture of this real world in which God would have us and is having us work to be ultimately a life-giving means of the grace of God to the world.

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Thanatos. To my second lecture. Oh, I'm sorry, I left this out. So how do I fill out that part of this

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choosing life as the aspiration, standard and benchmark to generate and protect life. That's it. And that's applications would be avoiding all kinds of violence, making peace. But the adaptations being some grievous ethical choices, yes, for death.

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It scares me even just to say it. Please hear me in that light. the other side of today's story. This is the most contentious issue in the church these days, ironic to me, because I think life and death issues are bigger than personal intimacies between individuals behind closed doors.

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But that's what it is at this point. I've decided to develop another chart dealing with the question of being faithful. Being faithful in covenant relationships, being faithful in loving relationships and intimate relationships seems to be faithfulness is a good place to start. One that will, I want to scope out those aspirations.

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I want to scope out standards or benchmarks and applications and approximations and adaptations. But I've added another category in here, life happens. There's a reality in all of this where life just plain happens in so many different ways than we had ever imagined.

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And particularly for those who are parents or grandparents and so have some kind of progeny who are living out their own lives without consulting with us. And I want us to take a look at them. What I have done, friends, is to create like in the life and death question. And by the way, this whole discussion about doing ethics this way begins with Ginger.

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That was the catalyst for my thinking along and then expanding and reading the Bible, listening to the Bible over 25 years of how does this work and what about, is this aspirational? Is it more benchmark, is it, we're about absolutes, and all those kinds of words have been in my head for all of these years. You never saw me write about them in the editorials of the Outlook.

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Didn't have the courage then. But coming out with it now. But I've ventured into the last couple of years of allowing myself to discuss and wrestle these matters, partly prompted by the Theological Task Force on Peace, Unity, and Purity of the Church, because we did kind of hint and test these edges of this kind of thinking.

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But even with them, I didn't really share a whole lot of this. But here we go. Life does happen. But I have created another framework about

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marriage, about love relationships, and to speak of the aspiration of being faithful to have subcategories, purity of heart and mind, chastity and singleness, suitability in partnering, fidelity in marriage, generativity of children, longevity throughout life. Now, there's another category that I might add into this as I get that book nailed down, and that is mutuality in relationship. But so for that would be another seven, and that sounds almost too cliche to do that.

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But we'll see where that goes. But you'll see, in addition to standards, benchmarks, applications, I have the column that says life happens before getting to approximations and adaptations. So let's walk through this together if we can. By the way, first I want to give you some biblical texts for background on these particular aspirations.

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Purity of heart and mind. Not only did Jesus say, blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God, but just 20 verses later, says, You have heard it said you shall not commit adultery, but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with his or her heart. I guess he's presuming that women don't have that problem because it's not his.

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I think he means all of us, but bear with that. He elevates that standard of no adultery to even no lustful thoughts. Well, of course, it's there in don't covet your neighbor. Anyway, going on from there, chastity and singleness, I'll just stay there, chastity and singleness.

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First Thessalonians chapter four, verse three and following, it is God's will that you should be sanctified and that you should avoid sexual immorality, that each of you should learn to control your own body in a way that is holy and honorable, not in passionate lust like the pagans who do not know God, and that in this matter no one should wrong or take advantage of a brother or sister. The Lord will punish all those who commit such sins. And we, as we told you and warned you before, for God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. With regard to suitability, the model does go back to Genesis chapter two.

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The Lord said, it is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him. Then the Lord made a woman from the rib that he had taken out of the man and brought her to the man. The man said, this is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh.

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She shall be called woman, for she was taken out of man. For this reason, the man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh. The man and his wife were both naked and felt no shame. With regard to fidelity, well, thou shalt not commit adultery, Exodus 20, 14, and about 100 other references where that's repeated.

00:35:36.100 - 00:35:56.340

In generativity of children, Yes, be fruitful, multiply, replenish the earth and subdue it. But also Psalm 127, verse three through five, children are a heritage from the Lord, offspring, a reward from God. Like arrows in the hands of a warrior are children born in one's youth.

00:35:56.660 - 00:36:10.740

Blessed is the one whose quiver is full of them. They will not be put to shame when they contend with their opponents in court. With regard to longevity, Malachi 2.16, I hate divorce, says the Lord God of Israel.

00:36:11.140 - 00:36:28.980

And I hate it when people clothe themselves with injustice, says the Lord Almighty. So be on your guard and do not be unfaithful. Well, okay, so you've got a basis for that, but let's get down to particulars. With regard to purity of heart, love, yes, lust, no.

00:36:29.060 - 00:36:43.860

That's essentially what Jesus was saying. He wasn't taking away from being in love, but he was saying, don't be one of lust. As I heard when I was a teenager, it's a little cliche, but bear with me if you will. Well, first look is human, second look is sin.

00:36:48.420 - 00:36:58.500

Yeah. But then life happens. It's called puberty. And with it, delays in getting married.

00:36:58.900 - 00:37:16.420

It's a whole sexualized culture that within which we live, it happens. And so what do we do? Well, to try to live within that, cultivate safe friendships, and do your best to refrain or restrain your lust. Okay, we'll move on.

00:37:18.100 - 00:37:33.380

Let's talk about chastity and singleness. Save yourself for marriage. That would be kind of the standard benchmark of what we've done. and said, and we particularly, more specifically, limit your affections to your intermediate intimacies.

00:37:34.140 - 00:37:58.260

There's some range in that, but you define that however you will for your children and probably more restrictive than it was for you, but you know. But then life happens. And not only do we have a puberty, but we have a postponed marrying Average marrying age in 2010, I believe, was 27 for women, 28 for men.

00:37:59.300 - 00:38:33.940

That's a long time in puberty to refrain and restrain all of this. And so as an approximation of adaptation, we pretty much lived into, I don't know that anybody ever says it out loud, but we pretty much lived into the reality, better to marry than burn, that's Paul, but more specifically, be monogamous, and if not, then at least use birth control. Be safe, be cautious. You exercise some controls over all of that so it doesn't become more publicly, more repeated, promiscuous, and all that stuff.

00:38:35.540 - 00:38:51.060

Yes, the room is getting warm. Let's skip the one on partnering. Okay, we're not going to touch that one for a while. With regard to fidelity within marriage, monogamous marriage of a male and female virgins for life.

00:38:51.060 - 00:39:08.540

Now let's get it right. If you're not supposed to lust and it's between a man or a woman, then the model is single female who's never had a lustful thought, single male who's never had a lustful thought, covenant together in marriage. That would be where it starts.

00:39:09.300 - 00:39:34.660

And so yeah, the church consecrates the couple, the civil law circumscribes the laws, and the newly waged consummate in their tent that night. That would be the way it's generally been seen to be the right way. But then again, life happens. Flirting, lust, infidelity, addictive behaviors, conflicts, loss of trust, incompatibility, and the marriage is gone.

00:39:36.940 - 00:39:49.620

I don't like to think of that. It was just a generation ago when that was the death knell of anybody in ministry. You get a divorce, you're done. You go find another career.

00:39:50.420 - 00:40:02.820

Even if you're the, quote, innocent party in a divorce, that was the end of it. Not ours, but all other denominations had absolute rules. It was just no possibility of a divorced person being married.

00:40:02.980 - 00:40:20.580

Well, we have collectively adapted and approximated on that. And by the way, just backing up, the Bible isn't real consistent on this one. Nathan confronts David for his murder of Uriah in order to have Uriah's wife, Bathsheba, to be his wife. And Nathan tells David a parable.

00:40:21.300 - 00:40:27.860

And David says, oh, that's awful. That man is awful, basically. And Nathan says, well, that man is you. You are the man.

00:40:27.940 - 00:40:42.180

This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says. I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. I gave your master's house to you, as King Saul, and your master's wives into your arms. I gave you the house of Israel and Judah.

00:40:42.420 - 00:40:58.580

And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more. Why did you despise the word of the Lord by doing what is evil in his eyes? You struck down Uriah the Hittite with a sword and took his wife to be your own. Now get clear with me on this one.

00:40:58.900 - 00:41:05.300

It was a sin to kill Uriah. I get that. He wants to have Bathsheba to be his wife. That's a terrible thing.

00:41:05.460 - 00:41:18.020

But God's already given him all the wives of Saul. Hello? Okay, Solomon had a thousand, you know, wives and concubines total. David only had about a dozen.

00:41:19.220 - 00:41:41.380

But these ones are given to him by Nathan. Thus says the Lord, says Nathan. So this monogamy thing isn't real clear here. Attempts to repair, save a marriage, repent, forgive, work through all that you can to save it.

00:41:41.860 - 00:41:57.620

But divorce, a possibility. And by the way, that's biblical. There is clear teaching from the Apostle Paul. Jesus referenced about do not divorce except in cases of infidelity or fornication.

00:41:57.700 - 00:42:16.820

And Paul specifically talking about the abandoning spouse and that if you remain and you are not bound, i.e. you are able to divorce and remarry. That kind of exception is right there. And I take that as an example or some permission for talking about

00:42:17.460 - 00:42:39.380

approximations and adaptations. The spirit is still the same, the intention being the same, lifelong covenant between two. But if under inspiration spirit, Paul could say, yeah, but then maybe we're not out of line with that for having made that adjustment. And maybe we actually got more biblical.

00:42:40.780 - 00:43:00.500

when we became more compromising, more understanding, more gracious, more forgiving, more embracing of those who have or are going through a divorce. I think we have been. I think we've become more biblical. It's not just a sellout to a secular culture that we have done that.

00:43:01.060 - 00:43:06.500

Well, it's getting quiet again. Someone say, Help them, Jesus. Help them, Jesus. Come on.

00:43:06.500 - 00:43:11.300

Come on. Someone say, Help them, Jesus. Okay, there we go. Now we're going, getting there.

00:43:11.620 - 00:43:28.100

Okay, generativity of children. Oh yeah, so we lifted up the notion of the quiver full of children. Neat little image from Proverbs, the Bible. And the traditional nuclear extended family is the essential unit of society would be kind of the way that's been applied.

00:43:29.140 - 00:43:53.540

But then life happens, infertility. The choice to limit the number of children, in some cases to not have any children at all, If God gave us the authority to generate life and subdue, then there's an authority to, in cases, to not do so. And so adoption, maybe to have children for those who are not able, or to have, or just for whatever reason, and birth control to avoid or limit children.

00:43:54.020 - 00:44:06.020

We've lived into that as a natural part of our Christian ethic. I don't think there's any controversy around any of that. Understandably so. Same thing when it comes to longevity.

00:44:07.860 - 00:44:21.060

Come covenant to life. until death we depart. So it is. And civil laws and ecclesiastical policy and community approbation deter marital failures.

00:44:21.140 - 00:44:46.100

We do try to have systems and structures to encourage people to stay together and not to promote just lasciviousness, a complete free partnering, multiple partnering, opening of open marriages and all that idea. We've said, no, that's That's not okay. And so we have structures to encourage the longevity, the lifelong covenant.

00:44:47.060 - 00:45:13.060

But then life does happen. Abandonment, infidelity, abuse, criminal behavior, incompatibility, personal failures, and yes, freedom and grace to divorce, remarry, and be restored in leadership within church community and the like, as referenced already of just a minute ago. Okay, now comes the tough one. Suitability and partnering.

00:45:14.340 - 00:45:37.580

Hopefully at this point you're recognizing that when we talk about the model of marriage, there's a whole lot to that. It's not simply measured by this one category. All six of these categories are all part of this. And the more we move to the right, the more open they are, the more possibilities.

00:45:37.580 - 00:46:05.700

And while I'm laying these out, in case it hasn't been obvious, these are possibilities among other possibilities I'm putting out there when we talk both about the applications, because they are different by community and even by different families, and then also the approximations and adaptations. These are some of the more obvious ones. But that doesn't mean that's the limit. There are many others, no doubt, that you have come across and will come across.

00:46:07.300 - 00:46:36.020

But now we come to the question of suitability. The model has been, seek a spouse with whom you're compatible and with whom you are a complement. Through history and through time, we've come about that in different ways. And Kim's, that's the lead in for Kim, and she'll take it a whole lot more, I believe, I expect.

00:46:36.180 - 00:46:48.660

I wish she had gone first. But But we'll go there. But commonly it's been having arranged marriages in some cultures or romantic marriages in others.

00:46:48.660 - 00:47:08.340

At the time, over in Pakistan a couple years ago on campus at Forman Christian College, one of the regular conversations was, are you going to be able to have a romantic marriage or an arranged marriage. Much of it's the majority are arranged. Most of those in their teens and 20s really want the romantic.

00:47:08.340 - 00:47:23.700

They want to be able to choose themselves. I'm not sure historically that that's been the best arrangement. That's Kim's area to work with. But the real goal, though, has always been to find the suitable partner.

00:47:23.900 - 00:47:42.380

And by the way, that was really easy for Adam and Eve. It was her or the orangutan. Him or the chimpanzee. It was really straightforward.

00:47:42.380 - 00:47:59.220

It's been an incredible mystery ever since. It has never been an easy thing. Well, in particular couples cases, but for the most part, it's been much more complicated. Life happens.

00:48:00.820 - 00:48:25.920

You don't find a partner. It just doesn't ever happen along the way. Or you find somebody that mommy and daddy did not really have in mind for you. It could be an African-American family whose daughter brought a white guy.

00:48:28.260 - 00:49:13.380

But when it's an interracial marriage, as we have wrestled in so many storylines, a marriage or a boyfriend or girlfriend from the wrong family, think Romeo and Juliet, and many different versions of that story as it's played out, mommy and daddy are likely to lose some sleep about that, which still happens. still wrestle. Is this the best thing for him, for her? And, it's been a Christian issue.

00:49:13.620 - 00:49:20.740

It's a church issue. See that map? What's that red part? Bible Belt, right?

00:49:21.780 - 00:49:40.900

Yeah, it happens to be the Bible Belt. But this is a map off of Wikipedia. of the states that used to prohibit interracial marriages and only stopped doing so when a Supreme Court ruling required them to do so. so in 1967.

00:49:41.380 - 00:50:06.180

Brothers and sisters, welcome to the Christian heritage of America. Are you proud of that? The states that so much want to lift up, yes, Texas among them, our great Christian heritage, yes, Florida among them, where I am now, and Virginia where I was in the middle. Yeah, we're not going to let those interracial marriages happen because that's not Christian.

00:50:07.740 - 00:50:29.020

I have an old study Bible, the Dakes annotated version of the Bible, and he has all these kind of footnotes on the side. I used it copiously and studied it intensely in high school until I came to the part about segregation and all the biblical arguments he had for segregation and how that's not Christian. I'm sorry, how integration is not Christian. God intends us to live separately.

00:50:29.020 - 00:50:43.940

I'd stopped using Dakes after that. Even at age 18, I knew that was wrong. But that's part of our heritage. What about interdenominational?

00:50:43.940 - 00:50:58.100

I was raised Catholic after all, and I would never think of dating a Protestant in those years. I quit being Catholic. It gave me a whole lot more options. Interreligious.

00:50:58.980 - 00:51:16.620

What about when he decides to marry a Muslim, she wants to marry a Hindu? The Bible is really clear on that one. Do not be yoked together with unbelievers, says Paul in 2 Corinthians 6. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common?

00:51:16.620 - 00:51:30.980

Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? Or what does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? Speaking specifically about marrying unbelievers, but that could also be applied to other religious groups as well.

00:51:32.660 - 00:51:41.380

And then, of course, we come to same gender. relationship. So he brings home a guy, she brings home a girl. And I don't need to play that all out.

00:51:41.380 - 00:52:02.820

That's been played out in many, many images and ideas and conversations. What do families do when she or he brings home somebody that wasn't what they'd hoped for? They go through kind of a family ritual. It's a little different in families, but you know much of it.

00:52:04.500 - 00:52:29.100

You try to be polite. As parents, you go then upstairs and talk about it, and you begin to pray about it. Your prayer life as a married couple gets much more intense and much more serious and earnest because you're really facing this complex crisis. out of your love for your child, eventually you sit down with that child and say, Is this really what you want?

00:52:29.100 - 00:52:46.580

And this is all the things that could go wrong. And you do kind of a T-chart of the strengths and the weaknesses and the good things and the bad things. And you do your very best to plead and to control and to urge. And eventually your child says, But I love him.

00:52:50.580 - 00:53:26.740

This is the person I've been waiting for all of my life. And at some point in time, the healthy parents, or parent if it's one, says, Whom you love, we will love. The unhealthy parent or parents say, I can have nothing to do with that. Ultimately, it's going to come down to that.

00:53:33.760 - 00:54:21.700

Ultimately, as a parent, I have to find a way to be deferential to those in love that really want to step into a covenanted life together with all of the ideals of what kind of marriage I have, that they can live into that in fullness. And while I have a hard time getting my arms around being the officiant, I guess I'm at a place, and it's a shift for me, to say to my fellow pastors, if you feel that that's a call for you to lead a wedding to consecrate, discretion is yours. Deference to the couple, discretion to the officiant. Brothers and sisters, I think

00:54:24.180 - 00:55:06.980

That works in this kind of a framework of understanding the will of God, deference toward the couple, discretion to the efficient. Starting off with the reality that every one of our relationships is at best an approximation, or more likely an adaptation, that none of us fits, quote, the model. None of us is giving very close to that. And frankly, I am a bit uncomfortable with the fact that I also for years have championed a kind of prohibition of a particular kind of sexual attraction that I just don't happen to be tempted by.

00:55:15.780 - 00:55:33.300

Those who say that allowance and movement and openness to this across the country is bringing down the institution of marriage. Let's get real. That's a very small percentage of the population. It's the larger percentage of the population, the heterosexuals that are destroying the institution of marriage.

00:55:34.820 - 00:55:53.940

That's, yeah. Time for some response on that one. I'll own that. My daughter fell in love with Niraj Dilhan four, five years ago, five, six years ago.

00:55:55.220 - 00:56:03.700

Four years ago, We were living up in Virginia. He was living up in D.C. They lived separately in separate parts, but in the D.C.

00:56:03.700 - 00:56:14.820

area. He had season tickets for the Redskins, a hardcore Redskins fan, and I was too. So he called me one day and said, I want you to come up and go to the game with me. Let's get breakfast in the morning beforehand.

00:56:15.100 - 00:56:27.060

I knew what was coming. He was wanting my daughter's hand in marriage. I had two problems with that. First of all, he is a Redskins fan and she's a Cowboys fan.

00:56:29.060 - 00:56:45.860

And they talked trash 12 months out of the year, in season and out of season. But also he was a Hindu. And with Hindu, it means multi gods. It's officially what we call paganism, multiple gods and all of that.

00:56:46.700 - 00:56:56.100

And Barbie and I got past the religion thing quickly. No, not the religion thing. We got past the the football team thing.

00:56:56.340 - 00:57:19.700

But it helped, it did help that when they argued about how they would raise children, whether they be Hindu or Christian, they argued and argued and argued, and Kelly is relentless. And finally he gave in, he said, okay, you can raise them Christian if I can raise them Redskin fans. And she accepted that, thanks be to God. But we struggled and wrestled and struggled and wrestled.

00:57:19.700 - 00:57:48.020

We knew the thing about being unequally yoked with unbelievers. But by the time I was heading out on the road to go to the football game, I was at a place where not only was I willing to give my blessing, but also to perform their wedding, as I'd performed her older brother's wedding before. I'd come to terms with that. They end up breaking up just before they end up getting

00:57:49.060 - 00:58:19.540

When he tried to ask her for marriage, it all blew up, and they split, and that was the end of it. So I didn't have to cross that bridge. But over the years since then, I've been haunted by the question, what if it were not he, Naraj, the Hindu, but were she a devout Christian? asking for my daughter's hand in marriage.

00:58:24.930 - 00:58:51.220

If I could make room for an adaptation across religious lines, could there not be the healthfulness in this family to say, whom you love, we will love. We speak of the church as a family. We've been an unhealthy family in so many ways. And I think we need to get healthy.

00:59:02.640 - 00:59:46.580

And so, yes, the standard benchmark would be opposite gender virgins joining in covenant of marriage till death they depart, while also affirming the role of singles in the community, lest that not be heard clearly. but adapting and approximating by supporting the remarriage possibility, giving deference to couples' choice, granting efficiency discretion to marry suitable partners, and those to be sorted out in pastor studies and session meetings and congregations and the community of a healthy family. So may it be. Thanks.

01:00:08.020 - 01:00:22.820

Thank you, Dr. Haber, for bringing so many intelligent words, but most importantly, a word of hope to us for this morning. I know we're all very touched. I think, Lemuel, I'm looking-- we have a stretch break, and then we reconvene for Dr.

01:00:22.820 - 01:00:24.980

Long's lecture. Thank you.