00:00:09.880 - 00:00:21.250

All right. And we start the show. Uh Good afternoon, everyone. Uh My name is Shaun Watkins and I serve as Associate Dean here at Austin Seminary for lifelong learning and very excited for each and

00:00:21.260 - 00:00:33.440

every one of you to be with us again as we continue our series here in cultivating ideas. Super excited for our guest lecturer and presenter today. Uh The Reverend Sil Crystal Silver mccormick is a visiting instructor

00:00:33.450 - 00:00:46.340

of evangelism and missions. Uh a native of El Paso Texas and a graduate of Austin Seminary from the class of 2010. Her interests include Christian Zionism, post colonial studies of global Christianities and world Mission,

00:00:46.350 - 00:00:59.580

Latin, a theologies and the intersection between colonialism, imperialism and Western missions. Uh She has served as a pastor, a chaplain, a director of youth ministries and immigration, advocate for congregations and hospitals in

00:00:59.580 - 00:01:08.160

Texas and Iowa. And before I pass it on to her and I give her title and I also want to say as well too. I joined this seminary in January of this year and there is a

00:01:08.170 - 00:01:21.160

particular student uh who is increasingly becoming one of my favorite students and a good friend of mine that works the front desk at Austin Seminary for what was both education beyond the walls. And now lifelong learning.

00:01:21.450 - 00:01:30.710

Carson is one of the first students that I met here and one of the first people that he told me about, uh, was Crystal Silver mccormick. He has raved highly about her class and he talked

00:01:30.720 - 00:01:40.500

to her up so much. She was one of the first professors that I was looking forward to meeting and she has lived up to the hype. Um She has been absolutely incredible and I've been blown away

00:01:40.510 - 00:01:48.980

both by our conversations by the panels that I've seen her on in the brief period of time that I've been here. And so I'm just super excited to be able to be here and to listen to her

00:01:48.990 - 00:02:00.710

as she presents today. And so she is talking to us about your American Christianity and indigenous suffering. Are we diseased? So super excited for this and that, with that being said, Crystal, by

00:02:00.720 - 00:02:15.510

all means, take it away. You are muted . OK. Now, can everyone hear me? OK. All right. Uh Good to be with you all. Thank you for that, really generous

00:02:15.520 - 00:02:29.040

, those generous words, very, very, overly generous. Um um And, and how exciting to talk about being diseased. Uh Right. Uh uh No, but uh a lot of what uh I

00:02:29.050 - 00:02:44.950

would like for us to together in community discuss today is um really based uh on the ideas of Jack Forbes, but not only Jack Forbes, uh indigenous writer in his book, Columbus and other Cannibals.

00:02:44.990 - 00:03:00.410

And um in, in that book, he shares a lot of things that I I would recommend the book. Uh But he shares a lot of indigenous writings um and saying songs that really give a perspective

00:03:00.420 - 00:03:14.460

and worldview of indigenous peoples who are not monolithic, of course. But uh he shares a lot of the core ideas that indigenous people share. And among them um is, is the experience that indigenous people

00:03:14.470 - 00:03:31.360

had uh with Christianity. And that's really important as you know, I, I do research and teach about missions and evangelism. And often I think students are eager to talk about what the church has done

00:03:31.370 - 00:03:46.720

well and can do well. And I think that's incredible. Uh And I think another part of talking about what we can do well, what we can do to proclaim healing and wholeness and liberation and freedom

00:03:46.120 - 00:04:03.750

is to do that with a recognition of the harm that the church has caused and has continued to cause and to understand that indigenous people around the globe are still alive, they're still present and they have survived

00:04:03.760 - 00:04:18.260

a lot of the harm that Christianity cause. So it's important for us, I think, to ground ourselves and say, how do we understand the indigenous experience of Christianity, not just Christianity's experience of indigenous

00:04:18.270 - 00:04:36.150

people. Uh How do we make repair and uh how do we keep looking inward to not replicate the patterns that um that were really established early on in a lot of expressions of Euro American Christianity. How

00:04:36.160 - 00:04:47.190

do we not repeat those? And so that's, that's really kind of what I, I'm looking for us to discuss. And uh and before I do anything else, are there any questions about that or

00:04:47.460 - 00:05:01.110

any comments? I can't see everyone but if you wanna, you know, chime in, I'll, I'll, I will be listening. Um But so with that, let's, let's get started. Um

00:05:02.890 - 00:05:15.370

Just your initial, I guess, thoughts, uh whatever you've read, what you've heard, what you've experienced, what are indigenous experiences of Christianity? What , what, what has that been like? What

00:05:15.380 - 00:05:45.100

are indigenous people's perceptions of, of Christianity and Christians ? Let's see if I can see the chat you all wanna put in the chat. Oh, it depends who you ask. Yes, that's a great

00:05:45.110 - 00:06:04.180

point. Absolutely. Um Can you say more about that a weapon of colonialism? Not good in a place like Hawaii? Yes. Um Violence. Um Absolutely. Oh, see, I wanna see someone

00:06:04.890 - 00:06:23.230

like in Carlos. Um Excuse me, I think that's a great point in saying depends who you ask because you might have Christians who, who um who might believe that uh Euro American Christianity saved indigenous people

00:06:23.240 - 00:06:39.580

. They use the language of saved or helped uh a common word that Christians have often used with respect to their work. I put that in quotes with um indigenous people is civilizing. Uh let's see,

00:06:39.590 - 00:06:58.850

by and large, the northeast. Oh, this is going away a destroyer of culture. Yes and see. Oh OK, Lena ancestors and not have a good experience with Christianity. Uh Indigenous is an

00:06:58.860 - 00:07:14.530

overgeneralization. I think we're um just doing our best to try and capture um some of the common themes , worldview and indigenous perspectives, but also uh the indigenous experience globally, of Christianity or perspective. But

00:07:14.540 - 00:07:32.530

that's an excellent point. Thank you. Um I think that we would all agree that um there's harm that has been done and not just once but um systematic ethnic cleansing. And if you read from indigenous

00:07:32.540 - 00:07:48.700

perspectives, they, you might see the words. Um So cultural genocide, not just physical genocide of the elimination of a people, but cultural genocide, the erasure of culture of beliefs, ways of dress

00:07:48.710 - 00:08:09.450

food. So it, it's extensive, the erasure that Christians took part in and uh who was our uh the face of Christianity often that did this, our friend, our ancestor and about friend, right

00:08:09.460 - 00:08:28.130

? That's a sarcastic uh uh Columbus, Christopher Columbus , that in um in some spaces, uh people still want to attribute some sort of a heroic status to, to this person who they may not know

00:08:28.140 - 00:08:46.730

anything about what um they may not know much about . Um because the language itself is an erasure of indigenous people, right? What does anyone remember learning ? Um I don't know if it was just kind

00:08:46.740 - 00:09:03.670

of like a rhyme that says, uh Columbus sailed the ocean blue. Uh and, and there's the language that Columbus discovered, discovered land as if it was empty. And how, how do you use

00:09:03.680 - 00:09:18.970

that language when there was already civilizations there? Um for ages, but this person is attributed to have discovered. And so, um we look at some of his writings uh which some of you may or

00:09:18.980 - 00:09:31.760

may not be familiar with. Um And here are just some salient features that I'm gonna ask you to listen for. What is he saying? What is , what is his perception? I discovered many islands

00:09:31.770 - 00:09:50.590

inhabited by numerous people. I took possession of all of them for our most fortunate king by making public proclamation and unfurling his standard, no one making any resistance. Meanwhile, I had learned from some Indians

00:09:50.600 - 00:10:05.500

whom I had seized at this place this, that this country was really an island and he later, he says he sent out some people to explore. And then uh the line says, I, they

00:10:05.510 - 00:10:20.690

found innumerable people and habitations but small and having no fixed government, they are neither lazy nor awkward. But on the contrary of an excellent and acute understanding , those who have sailed these seas give excellent accounts

00:10:20.700 - 00:10:37.250

of everything, but they have never seen men wearing clothes or ships like ours. Is there anything that stands out to you as a you hear kind of his impressions as he's encountering indigenous people for the first

00:10:37.260 - 00:11:03.040

time if I can get the chat if you wanna put in the chat. Ok. Anything that stood out to you? Um He's, I don't know if you notice that he talks about taking possession.

00:11:03.470 - 00:11:18.200

Uh But if two things land and people, OK . So uh he's talking about um taking season. Yes. Uh Thank you. I see that on the chat and erasure of people in a culture.

00:11:18.620 - 00:11:35.360

Um This is uh and another good point, Carlos uh something different. Uh Someone else saying no one making any resistance assume that people encounters, understand authority . Oh What a great point. Yes. And

00:11:35.370 - 00:11:50.520

dehumanization of people at the first encounters is a great point. This the language, even just these small pieces already assume um a sort of superiority, a power structure. This is something that um we talk

00:11:50.530 - 00:12:05.370

about admissions classes all the time is assessing power structures . When we enter a space, how much power do we have? Do we assume that we know more that we are better? Um There isn't equal

00:12:05.380 - 00:12:22.160

footing. So there's just this really um our examples of Columbus is of everything not to do essentially and not to be right. Um Is taking possession of people, taking possession of land and interestingly comments,

00:12:22.170 - 00:12:37.470

they don't have a fixed government. So in his mind, they already maybe they don't share. Um And somebody touched on this. Uh Thank you already , but they don't share the same system of government

00:12:37.480 - 00:12:50.570

. So immediately this is seen as lesser. Um , and he's starting to look at what else is available. Right. It is, they're not lazy , they're not awkward. They have a good understanding

00:12:50.620 - 00:13:01.880

and this seems like because we know what he does with this is, this is gonna be advantageous, um, to, to Columbus and to the crown that he sailed for the Spanish crown, he names

00:13:01.890 - 00:13:20.040

an island, um, in, um, well , what he thought was Asia, India. Um and is now the the Bahamas um the the land of the Taino people, he named Iguana. And

00:13:20.050 - 00:13:33.740

uh he says it's exceedingly fertile. It has numerous harbors very safe and wide. So he's describing here , its rivers, its mountains, the island is beautiful, different shapes, easy to be traversed a

00:13:33.800 - 00:13:50.260

great variety of trees. Um And then he starts noting that it's fertile for cultivation and for pasturage, well adapted for constructing buildings, the convenience of harbors . So immediately what is his perspective of the land

00:13:50.270 - 00:14:13.450

? Not just the people, but what is his perspective of the land? Put dollars. Yes. Um Absolutely. Dollars. Which is what can I benefit? What can I get from this? Um

00:14:13.460 - 00:14:28.570

And it's a great question, Carlos, was he expressing personal opinion or power, authority, his religion taught him. Um There is famous historian Justo Gonzalez and in his uh writing of the History of Latin

00:14:28.580 - 00:14:43.520

America and touching on Columbus, he says, um that it, it I would say it's a generous perspective uh that if you look at people like Columbus and Hernan Cortez and others who colonized the Americas,

00:14:43.530 - 00:14:58.770

what is now known as the Americas that they believe they were doing the Christian thing. And, and we're going to look at some of Columbus's writings on this um believing that, that essentially they equated empire

00:14:58.780 - 00:15:13.160

and the expansion of empire with the Christian faith. Um Unfortunately, and um as other people are noting , uh thank you in the chat. What is in it for us? Uh could yes, and

00:15:13.170 - 00:15:31.070

could the land be more valuable than the people? So we're looking at what Columbus is saying and he's thinking of the people possessing people possessing land and he's uh scoping out the land for, can we build

00:15:31.080 - 00:15:43.850

harbors? Can we build buildings? Is it fertile ? Can we grow things? This is economics and a little of the history of what was going on in Europe where he was sent from Spain, right

00:15:43.860 - 00:16:00.400

? Um On behalf of the crown financed his uh so-called discovery is that they were looking to, to fund the Spanish crown, the Spanish crown was competing with other nations and they needed products. They so

00:16:00.750 - 00:16:14.090

in they believe they needed products right, to survive and to, to have more wealth. So Columbus also and, and this worldview, which is what Carlos was touching on. I appreciate that is that

00:16:14.740 - 00:16:26.610

we're going to spread Christianity and the spread of Christianity is the same as the growth of Empire and the growth of economics. So really early on this, um we'll talk more about this term, but this

00:16:26.620 - 00:16:48.270

colonialist Christianity merges economics empire, this the expansion empire with Christianity. And even though it's centuries ago, I I would suggest that as Christians, we have to continue to assess when we allow these things to

00:16:48.280 - 00:17:06.600

enter into our faith, our ministries, our churches , um how much empire is a part of this because it's not just these things that, that um he exported or that he was interested in that continue

00:17:06.610 - 00:17:18.890

to inform a lot of expressions of Christianity. But so let me um go on to the next slide . Um I do want to note, he said um the, you know, in the trees,

00:17:18.900 - 00:17:37.620

pasture lands, fruits. So he this and golden medals uh which they're gonna later, he and his um other companions are going to use particularly the uh the awful labor, um violent labor and forced labor

00:17:37.630 - 00:17:56.090

of the indigenous people to look for gold and medals in the land to explore the land. So um Columbus in his writing talks about in his experience and this is in some historical records, right that the

00:17:56.100 - 00:18:11.220

indigenous people thought maybe these people are God or Gods or representatives messengers from God because after all, Columbus and others, you know, put down their flag with the cross and they said we are here on

00:18:11.230 - 00:18:22.120

behalf of God. This was essentially Christian mission. Uh And so when he starts talking about the people . He said, well, they weren't afraid anymore . When we said we're from God. He describes

00:18:22.130 - 00:18:32.990

them as guileless and honest in some of his writings , he says, these people are gonna be so easy to take advantage of. They're liberal of all . They have. No one refuses to ask or

00:18:33.010 - 00:18:45.680

anything, anything he possesses. On the contrary, they themselves invite us to ask for it. They manifest the greatest affection towards all of us exchanging valuable things for trifles content with the very least thing or

00:18:45.690 - 00:19:00.020

nothing at all. I gave them many beautiful and pleasing things which I had brought with me for no return, whatever in order to win their affection and that they might become Christians and inclined to love our

00:19:00.030 - 00:19:14.820

king and queen and princess and all the people of Spain and that they might be eager to search for and gather and give us what they abound in and we greatly need, right, the emphasis on what

00:19:14.830 - 00:19:26.640

we need in getting what we need met. Um Sadly, and so I guess the question that I have for you all if you uh can put in the chat, um What values so, right.

00:19:26.650 - 00:19:57.080

We're already working with these value systems that Columbus has . What is his Christianity? What values does he describe of the indigenous people? What is, what is their value system, generosity as opposed to his

00:19:57.090 - 00:20:15.120

state sponsored Christianity, communal sharing openly. They are generous. Yes. And here's what's um when we're in class we're looking at if all of us here , imagine what we in theory, think Christian values

00:20:15.130 - 00:20:42.040

are supposed to be who is embodying Christian values because it's, it's not exactly Columbus, not Columbus, right? Um embodying Christian values and this is just a no for us. When we're looking at missions

00:20:42.050 - 00:20:57.460

evangelization, sometimes we think um or what missionaries have thought at times is that this is about information exchange . We need people to believe a certain thing. We need people to think this way about Jesus about

00:20:57.470 - 00:21:15.580

God. And they did this while imposing awful harmful behavior, violence, genocide, ethnic cleansing. There was no cultural exchange. There wasn't any who are you? I want to know you. Wow,

00:21:15.590 - 00:21:27.900

look at what incredible people you are. What can I learn from you? They come in with the power structure of I'm I'm better. I'm in the driver's seat. What do you have for me?

00:21:27.910 - 00:21:48.490

How can you meet my needs? People are objects , the land is an object. And so uh it's, it's really unfortunate that this is the encounter with Christians completely embedded and in line with with empire

00:21:48.880 - 00:22:03.100

, it's very sad. And uh Carlos notes the the language of they, yes, very much other . Um It's a good point. Um And Anna says the locals and body values we say we care

00:22:03.110 - 00:22:17.950

about. Absolutely. Christians say something, not all right. And we're looking at particular time in history but have said things and embodied something else and this is why missions is far more than information exchange.

00:22:17.960 - 00:22:33.740

Being a Christian is far more than declaring particular beliefs , particularly if they don't match um what our actions are. And, and he feels really good about what he did. This is um coming some of

00:22:33.750 - 00:22:45.170

the last, the last slide on his writings, um what has been accomplished is great and wonderful and I'm not at all proportionate to my deserts, but to the sacred Christian faith, to the piety and

00:22:45.180 - 00:22:59.490

religion of our sovereigns. So here we have a Christian faith that at that time, yes, was very tied to whatever your monarch believed, whatever your monarch believed was your faith. And if your monarch

00:22:59.500 - 00:23:15.370

needed to spread Christianity to make some money, then so be it. Um There wasn't this great distinction um at this time, culturally, this was a very cultural Christianity. We could say, what is

00:23:15.380 - 00:23:30.130

the mind of a man could not compass the spirit of God has granted to mortals. God is won and listened to his servants who love his precepts even in in impossibilities. As has happened to me in

00:23:30.140 - 00:23:45.290

the present instance, who have accomplished what human strength has hitherto never attained. Let king and queen and princess and their most fortunate realms and all their Christian provinces, let us all return thanks to our Lord

00:23:45.300 - 00:24:03.850

and Savior Jesus Christ who has bestowed so great a victory and reward upon us. So here you have this language that we've already looked at and now he's saying this is, this is blessings from God.

00:24:03.860 - 00:24:21.650

Our Lord Jesus Christ has given us this. We deserve it. You know, this is incredible and it's a victory. This is about victory. It's about possessing, it's about obtaining items, goods and

00:24:21.660 - 00:24:36.860

people are not people, the people that he encountered are not people, their objects. Um So this is actually really sad. It's really gross, right ? Uh As, as our Children would say that's

00:24:36.870 - 00:24:47.710

so Ick or Jimmy Fallon on his show that that's so ill. You know, this is this, this is done in the name of the Christian faith and it's not just then it leaves a legacy,

00:24:47.720 - 00:25:04.680

centuries of, of pain, right? So while Europe is enriching itself off of discovered quote unquote lands , entire civilizations are destroyed in a matter of years because the Europeans brought their diseases that were foreign to

00:25:04.690 - 00:25:18.820

the people they encountered, then they forced them into labor and then they decimated their social structures, the way that, you know, he was critical of their government or what he believed their lack of government

00:25:19.350 - 00:25:32.920

, their ways of doing life, religiosity. What we might categorize as the political and other things are decimated because nobody cares that the European Christians that arrived , didn't care. They say you, we're gonna

00:25:33.320 - 00:25:47.700

, we're gonna implement all of this, how you do church. So how you do your religion? We disrupt family life because we have forced labor. There were less um women having Children, people dying

00:25:47.710 - 00:25:56.060

of disease and people dying of forced labor because they're looking for gold. So and this is done in the name of religion. So they come and they say this is what God wants, this is what

00:25:56.070 - 00:26:11.900

God wants from you. And this is what God wants from us in the name of Jesus. And then they define people, uh they define indigenous peoples and Africans as as being backward or being in need

00:26:11.910 - 00:26:27.040

of civilizing. So, Spain exports this, this Spanish and the Portuguese export this religion that is indistinguishable from politics and economics. And this is the Catholic church, this is the Protestant church. So um

00:26:27.170 - 00:26:44.020

all are guilty. None are, none are able to escape this culpability and they're working from something called uh Maybe you're familiar with the reconquista, this idea that a lot of European Christianity was in fear that

00:26:44.030 - 00:26:56.320

they had been losing uh losing. I put in quotes. Um they had possessed lands and they felt like Muslims were taking the lands and so they had to go conquer more land. And so they,

00:26:56.330 - 00:27:11.680

this is why Columbus set sail. Uh And so Spain amasses all this wealth, but they introduced something else that I've touched on. Oh, no. Where did it go? I feel like I erased

00:27:11.690 - 00:27:21.320

it. I did. Oh my gosh, I hit delete earlier and I thought it was a blank slide and I deleted. OK. Well, that's unfortunate. What I'm gonna share with you then is

00:27:21.330 - 00:27:45.840

imagine a triangle of pyramid and at the very bottom of the pyramid are Africans are black persons and then indigenous people. And then there are um criollos people who were um have mixed um parents um parent who

00:27:45.850 - 00:28:03.440

is indigenous and a parent who um is Spaniard white . Um And I'm actually switching the order because then there's also people who had African and Spaniard uh parents , the mix and then mestizos are the indigenous and

00:28:03.450 - 00:28:19.900

the white. Spaniard and criollos um are the African and then Spaniard. And then there are Beula who were at the top, who were born in Spain . And then there are on the strata as well

00:28:19.910 - 00:28:33.020

. Those who were born to Spanish parents, both Spanish parents but were not born in Spain. So immediately you get this hierarchy based on race where in Europe, the hierarchy was based on your religion and

00:28:33.030 - 00:28:48.050

Jews were persecuted and they were at the bottom. Muslims were persecuted. So they were at the bottom . And when this colonialist Christianity gets exported, what then happens is things are based on race and you

00:28:48.060 - 00:29:03.410

have the introduction of white superiority um to what is now known as the Americas. So I wanna stop and ask, is there any questions or comments because this is now this is what the Europeans have exported

00:29:03.470 - 00:29:23.070

this hierarchy of race. This idea that indigenous people are backwards and that indigenous and Black bodies are there as objects for labor for white, for the white people at the top of the pyramid. Yes.

00:29:23.080 - 00:29:37.790

And as Carlos noted thugs rapist these murders at the top. And what's interesting though is that the people doing the raping, the thieving and the murdering are saying, hey, we're civilized Christians. Um And

00:29:37.800 - 00:29:59.670

so Jack Forbes, again, the indigenous writer um is, is helping us compare this collision of worldviews of viewing people as objects, viewing people as um this racial hierarchy and as unequal you encounter another human

00:29:59.680 - 00:30:12.650

being and you think I'm better than this other human being. And Forbes says, this is not what indigenous spirituality teaches. And then he says, and the religion is different. He's critical of the Christianity

00:30:12.660 - 00:30:26.250

they encountered. And he says, every act of one's life is in a very real sense, a religious act. Our religion is not what we profess or what we say or what we proclaim our religion

00:30:26.260 - 00:30:41.020

is what we do, what we desire, what we seek, what we dream about. Um Forbes is talking about us as a whole person. And then he gives this image and he says, if

00:30:41.030 - 00:30:59.660

we tromp on a bug, that is our religion , such a profound way of looking at it, thinking um how we treat every interaction in life, every living thing um is, is important. And

00:30:59.670 - 00:31:14.380

, and this was also a very different way of approaching the land which an indigenous worldview is just as important because it's a living thing. So there's this profound respect for the sacredness of all living things.

00:31:14.390 - 00:31:26.910

So if I encounter you and you look different than I do. And, and maybe as Columbus noted , I'm wearing clothes and you're not. Um you don't have the same system of government. Forbes suggests

00:31:26.920 - 00:31:41.340

that from an indigenous perspective, this doesn't make you lower or higher. You're another living being and I'm gonna treat you with respect. We're connected. And uh Forbes notes that this is another difference um in

00:31:41.350 - 00:32:01.940

that indigenous worldview is that all living things are connected , not just you and I as human beings, but the air, the ocean, the trees, the bugs, everything is connected. And as we

00:32:01.950 - 00:32:17.540

, you know, we see this um as we watch climate change uh unfold that every small thing seemingly small has an impact on something else that the earth is alive. And as Christians, we, you

00:32:17.550 - 00:32:31.910

know, sometimes people like to go to default to that uh Romans verse that says, uh we worship the creator, not the creation. And that even with that verse, there is nothing that suggests that

00:32:31.920 - 00:32:49.980

we don't live in relationship to the creation that is alive. And why wouldn't we? Um And so another thing that Forbes touches on is that there isn't any killing unless it is necessary. So he describes

00:32:49.990 - 00:33:04.250

indigenous tribes using the wood from trees that have already , you know, died. And we, he says, we're not just gonna go out and kill trees and use them to build and for their wood

00:33:04.260 - 00:33:22.630

. So there's this real insistence on not using anything as an object or a means to an end. Nothing, no living thing. And that was a huge gap, gaping hole in this um early Christianity

00:33:22.640 - 00:33:37.140

or expression of Christianity. Uh That could be a whole other debate is whether someone wants to argue if this was Christianity or not. But um that, that's um that's the Christianity, the indigenous people were

00:33:37.150 - 00:33:57.110

receiving. Um And, and this is the problematic uh obviously. Um And so the other thing is that we have a relationship with the natural world and not over it. And this is something that indigenous

00:33:57.120 - 00:34:12.500

teachings really help. Um I would say to undo a lot of the European framework that arrived to what is now the Americas is being in relationship with the natural world and not over it. Um And another

00:34:12.510 - 00:34:27.790

thing Forbes introduces is that in a lot of indigenous storytelling, humans are made to actualize the idea of love in the universe. So he's very critical of um Christian belief that uh suggests that we are born

00:34:27.800 - 00:34:42.470

sinful. And uh we don't have to debate that everybody has different views about how sin came into the world and how humans are our propensity to do good , to do bad. But um that we are

00:34:42.480 - 00:35:02.400

made to actualize the idea of love in the universe is very different than what Columbus and, and his people um um introduced to the indigenous people. So I wanna stop there any comments or questions and I

00:35:02.410 - 00:35:21.130

see a comment. Um Tom, thank you for your comment. Um And I appreciate that. I , I think the idea of is um white man bad colored, good. I, I think um

00:35:21.140 - 00:35:32.290

so I don't want to use that framework and, and I apologize if it seems that way. I think that when we look at the origins of Christianity particularly and again, what is now known as the

00:35:32.300 - 00:35:45.320

Americas or Latin America, there was a lot of , of harm done. And in class, when we talk about the history of Christian missions, we also talk about a lot of wonderful European missionaries,

00:35:45.330 - 00:36:01.060

including um missionaries from European countries who interrupted the slave trade and used their own selves to do this uh which is incredible, particularly for the time period um that they were interrupting the slave trade, which then

00:36:01.070 - 00:36:15.500

gets connected to this Christianity that we're talking to because people start using humans as a commodity. And so uh I think the criticism is not um about and , and I have this on a slide, I

00:36:15.510 - 00:36:30.830

would recommend reading Willie Jennings who talks about whiteness. And there's a distinction between really emphasizing the problem with whiteness, which is a value system and not white people. Um Right, because people can be very

00:36:30.840 - 00:36:45.710

invested in values of whiteness and they, and they are not uh white people. So um it's, it's about a value system that we're targeting. And I think this next slide really um helps um with

00:36:45.720 - 00:37:00.800

that. So thank you for raising that. But um um oh and then I'm sorry, I Carlos , yes, there were definitely intro intertribal wars and students have raised that I think. Um And we're

00:37:00.810 - 00:37:14.870

looking at the concept of wo and as we talk about that everyone, every culture, every time, every place, every people has the wo or will see the weo manifested. The question for us is

00:37:14.880 - 00:37:27.460

one of the questions for us is what do we do with it? And with is it at home in our hearts and in our religion? Um So let me show you what um Forbes says is the

00:37:27.470 - 00:37:44.900

Utica, which is an indigenous perspective and he names in the Lakota tradition, uh specifically a sickness of exploitation or a cannibal psychosis that when present in humanity , it consumes the lives and possessions of other creatures

00:37:44.950 - 00:37:58.430

. It presents itself through the rape of humans, land. So he's using this image of raping the land, animals, water and all of creation. So, thinking of extraction and getting products, right

00:37:58.440 - 00:38:15.730

, which our cultures around the globe still do this , the act of consuming another person's life. This is important in order to advance one's own purpose and profit through exploitation, imperialism and colonialism, eat the

00:38:15.740 - 00:38:32.760

lives of the people and the earth making them cannibals . So this is the title of his book uh Columbus and other cannibals. The definition is of huo is this consuming of all living things, for profit

00:38:32.770 - 00:38:49.330

, for gain. And, and this is the lament here is that this gets so intermingled with this expression of early Christianity. Um that has had an impact that that continues to have an impact um on

00:38:49.340 - 00:39:02.070

all of us. But and in Latin America and I'm saying on all of us because um we absorb the ideas of what Tico, right? Um Our churches in our hearts, we have to be careful

00:39:02.080 - 00:39:17.760

of what Forbes names here, greed, lust, inordinate ambition, materialism, and arrogance. Uh For Forbes, arrogance is the primary, I guess sin . If we want to use that language barrier to

00:39:17.770 - 00:39:36.230

being love in the world, um Humility seeks equality and sees interconnectedness um as in indigenous spirituality, those interconnectedness. Because what Forbes is saying is we can be humble if we recognize that we're all connected.

00:39:36.950 - 00:39:47.460

I am connected to you. I am connected to my enemy. My enemy is connected to me. I'm connected to the trees outside, to the bees , to the lizards outside my window, to the

00:39:47.470 - 00:40:01.390

squirrels, I'm connected. And he's saying that that interconnectedness helps help us keep us humble. We need each other. We need each other to learn from each other to love each other or to learn from

00:40:01.400 - 00:40:15.600

one another. So um to see God in one another, so many things that interconnectedness helps us, but especially he's saying it's rooted in um helping us remain humble. I'm gonna check the chat, any

00:40:15.610 - 00:40:30.050

questions or comments about any of that about the weo this concept of the weo and there's our little, you know, creepy image of what, what Tiko might be. Just this, consuming, consuming,

00:40:30.100 - 00:40:49.460

consuming. OK. I don't see any questions, feel free. Um You know, the, the terms colonialism, imperialism get used a lot. Um I don't know, people use different definitions, they're

00:40:49.470 - 00:41:09.290

all very similar. Um This one is just uh a little over a minute. I'm gonna share with you just so we're kind of working off the same definition. Colonialism is a broad phenomenon that took place

00:41:09.300 - 00:41:29.590

across the world whereby often European powers would colonize another territory or region of the world. The people who are colonized don't have frequently as much or say, or they're not able to participate in their own political

00:41:29.600 - 00:41:44.680

system or determine laws or determine the kinds of schools that they would like to attend. But sort of their whole life can be structured by colonization and it's frequently imposed sometimes in a violent manner by a European

00:41:44.700 - 00:42:05.410

power at its most important kernel. Um Colonization is really the power you're exerting power over somebody else and you're controlling them at multiple levels of society and political action. OK. So, um I think that's

00:42:05.420 - 00:42:19.360

a really helpful framework too for what um it, it because a lot of times with respect to Columbus , it's just seen or described as colonialist, Christianity , a very colonialist form because it, it was

00:42:19.370 - 00:42:36.200

rooted in the domination that cleansing the genocide of the indigenous people of the Americas, using them as objects . So it was a colonialist power. It stripped the people of all their structures and imposed a different

00:42:36.210 - 00:42:47.890

way. It said this is how you're supposed to think, how, how to believe, how to feel, how to act and everything about you. Forbes describes as well and the way that you function

00:42:47.900 - 00:43:06.290

is backward, it's uncivilized and the standard for being civilized is us, right? Is what Columbus was saying all the while committing this great violence. Um There is um um I think it's like 1000 pages

00:43:06.300 - 00:43:20.620

uh written from a man named Galman Boma and it comes out of Bolivia, what is now Bolivia, an indigenous person who wrote um to, I believe King Philip and he said, can you please remove

00:43:20.630 - 00:43:34.360

your friars from our land? I promise we'll worship Jesus. I promise we'll keep doing what you asked . But can you please remove them because they are killing us? They're raping us, they're doing all

00:43:34.370 - 00:43:44.680

these. And he wrote, he, he has drawings in this um in this long letter, I don't think they know for sure if it ever arrived to the king, but he really wanted them to

00:43:44.690 - 00:44:00.360

go. And so we have all this history of Christianity and it has impacted the way that we view other people. We view indigenous people um particularly who are still alive. And still surviving colonialism and forms

00:44:00.370 - 00:44:27.460

of imperialism. So I'm gonna do the same thing with imperialism. It's taking up this one's two minutes . So what is imperialism? I think that the first place to start is to talk about these terms

00:44:27.470 - 00:44:39.610

because I think terms like imperialism, empire and colonialism gets really confused. So let's think of imperialism as the overarching term under which other things fit, right ? So what is an empire? What is an

00:44:39.620 - 00:44:53.110

empire? An empire is simply a polity um that exercises imperialism? So then we'll use this word polity . So what does polity mean? P is simply a, a group of people who are able to

00:44:53.130 - 00:45:05.300

exercise self rule. It could be a small clan or it could be a kingdom or a country. So that's what we call a polity, right? And so an empire is simply a, a polity

00:45:05.310 - 00:45:19.860

that, that exercises imperialism. What is imperialism? Imperialism is when a stronger polity enforces will upon a weaker polity, there's imperialism with colonies and imperialism without colony. So first of all, we have to

00:45:19.870 - 00:45:30.560

say, what is a colony? A colony is a polity that has lost its self rule, mostly most of the time unwillingly has lost self rule, right? So a type of imperialism with colonies would

00:45:30.570 - 00:45:50.160

be say French Indochina, British India, us, Philippines and imperialism without colonies is where an imperial power is able to exert control over AAA people without having direct political control. So an example would be say

00:45:50.440 - 00:46:06.270

China during the era where the the British and the other European powers were carving spheres of influence. It's important to point out that an imperial power does not have complete total domination over the colonized, right?

00:46:06.550 - 00:46:21.810

Um Instead, an imperial power is one that's able to exercise hegemony over the colonized hegemonic control means being able to set the rules, the laws, the norms and everything else by which the weaker p must

00:46:21.820 - 00:46:46.500

abide any questions or comments about that. Those two terms, I think what's sad here is that what we these descriptions of colonialism, imperialism are, are what Christianity was up to. It's what Christianity was

00:46:46.800 - 00:47:02.420

, was engaged in. It was what it was doing in the Americas and other places. Um And you know, you can see imperialism function through controlling of economies uh stronger or more wealthy countries in our

00:47:02.430 - 00:47:19.230

world that benefit off the economies of countries that don't have um a lot of wealth because they are producing the products or making the products. And so these are where the criticism from within the Christian tradition come

00:47:19.240 - 00:47:36.610

of these ISMs colonialism, imperialism that really gave birth to Christianity in the Americas. Um And here I think this goes um to the point either about earlier . Um It is not about white people as it

00:47:36.620 - 00:47:50.220

is about Whiteness. And Willie Jennings is a, oh, I misspelled that I apologize. Uh The definition of Willie Jennings offers of whiteness is he does a really strong job of saying whiteness is different than

00:47:50.220 - 00:48:07.650

white people. The values of whiteness um to generalize , to give a quick definition are assuming or feeling that white is superior and is the norm is the default. And again, it one doesn't have to

00:48:07.660 - 00:48:21.870

be a white person to have those values. So , Whiteness is a value system. It's a way of viewing the world and it really is emblematic of that structure that I was missing from that slide where

00:48:21.880 - 00:48:37.820

where white was at the top. And when structures particularly Christianity are born out of that, that idea that mindset, then it reproduces itself in these harmful ways of thinking of structure of indigenous people of Black

00:48:37.830 - 00:48:52.870

people. Um So that this has been replicated um all over and in all over Latin America, for example, where um one of my is my primary area of research, Latin America where anti indigeneity and

00:48:52.880 - 00:49:08.520

anti black or um yes, anti blackness are very strong, very, very strong because that strata continues to exist that that hierarchy where the assumption is that the higher you are as a Latina person, the

00:49:08.530 - 00:49:24.620

better. So even though these ideas are centuries old , they continue to have um an impact in, in the way societies are structured in the in, in, in the Christian faith and the Christian tradition

00:49:25.060 - 00:49:43.470

. Um So again, the, the the criticism and the concern is about these uh adopting values that of whiteness. This idea that white is superior um but not about white persons. Um Columbus was a

00:49:43.480 - 00:50:00.140

Spaniard um which is especially in Latin America, considered white uh right? Um But he, he was um a European, he brought Catholicism, a brand of Catholicism that was tied to monarchy and tied to

00:50:00.150 - 00:50:14.550

values of whiteness and to what we now know is colonialism and imperialism. And so we have to ask ourselves, you know, these questions if we don't want to replicate them. So I guess my question

00:50:14.560 - 00:50:32.210

for you all. If you wanna put them in the chat, what are um the definitions of uh in our culture of success? What, what is seen as being successful? Culture, maybe not according

00:50:32.220 - 00:51:05.920

to each of you, but culturally, what does our culture say is successful? Maybe even if you wanna say who is uh someone put dollar signs? Absolutely. So um defining success is often and Bill

00:51:05.930 - 00:51:20.660

Gates, exactly. I mean money and power who are on having financial security, big house, luxury car, yes, having more money than we need . Making the elite list in society. These,

00:51:20.670 - 00:51:35.420

these are cultural values, cultural norms and not only in the US. Um uh Carlos mentioned the, the hoax, this idea of the American Dream. Um Yes, like even that phrase, the American

00:51:35.430 - 00:51:49.560

Dream people saying I can get to the top, I can have a lot of material wealth. Um This is uh unfortunate. These are cultural values and , and how do we define um mental illness?

00:51:49.570 - 00:52:07.270

Like what is mental illness mean? Kathy notes that winning souls for Christ yes, is dangerous for Christians . Um which is also what Columbus claim to do . And I, I would suggest that you,

00:52:07.280 - 00:52:22.330

you know, this idea of winning souls is um is about information exchange and not about a relationship, something for us to think about. But um um yeah, that's a great point. Uh Thank you

00:52:22.340 - 00:52:37.540

for sharing that I would say um I haven't seen anything chat and I wanna make sure you honor your time. But mental illness is often de defined like , oh people use the words broken. OK.

00:52:37.550 - 00:52:49.770

Carlos mentioned that very good uh point. Um Broken people use say, oh if someone is crazy or they say bi pole or, or depression, these words that we use to describe mental illness and I'm

00:52:49.780 - 00:53:07.590

not suggesting those things aren't mental illness. But what Forbes is saying is everything that we described, right as the values in cult, in our culture um is um the values in our culture of winning,

00:53:07.870 - 00:53:21.630

you know, having a lot of money, all these things. He's saying this is a form of illness of being unwell. He's saying if you cannot love, you are unwell, if you want to

00:53:21.640 - 00:53:37.600

kill you are unwell. This, this is um what are indications of the we TICO and this is our indications of, of being unwell in our society . And he's saying these uh he's not suggesting these

00:53:37.610 - 00:53:46.670

other things aren't important it was the way we describe mental illness. I think somebody said not a disease . Yes. And I, I forgive me for that was um my, my wrong for phrasing it

00:53:46.680 - 00:54:01.660

that way, my apologies. But that um these things are not what means that someone isn't mentally. Well, when someone is not mentally well, they care about benefiting off of someone else, they care

00:54:01.670 - 00:54:14.430

about harm, they care, they don't have a care for other people's needs. They don't see other people as connected to them. So the weo he says, he describes as a disease that means that

00:54:14.440 - 00:54:30.660

people are unwell to be loving as well. Brutality is an aberration. He says, and this was the experience that indigenous people had of Christianity was of a wo religion. And in fact, he says

00:54:30.670 - 00:54:46.630

in his book that indigenous people said these people have weo this is what they have, they are unwell , they are brutal, their religion is brutality. And so the question for us is where our value

00:54:46.640 - 00:55:05.150

systems are within our Christian tradition and in our ministries and as we engage other people. Um and, and looking at the legacies that, that, that remain in our Christian tradition. The sorry, I

00:55:05.160 - 00:55:22.000

wanna try to see if I can get in the chat or look at the chat but my, it's not scrolling very well. OK. There it is to wrap up. OK. Um So again,

00:55:22.010 - 00:55:38.690

I wanna leave you with those questions or those ideas about exploring, looking inward in our tradition about um what, what is harmful in our tradition, what harm have we caused? And in any wherever you

00:55:38.700 - 00:55:53.490

live, where are indigenous tribes? Because they are , there, is there a way to make repair , to build a relationship and, and even apart from that, um to be looking for the weo

00:55:53.500 - 00:56:09.980

within ourselves and our communities um so that we don't subscribe to that value system that, that we appreciate the value systems that are at the core of, of, of who it is to be a follower

00:56:09.990 - 00:56:24.390

of Jesus uh which were demonstrated very much so by the indigenous people that uh Columbus encountered. So I , I, I will leave you with that and um I appreciate you being here and hearing me and

00:56:24.400 - 00:56:37.640

commenting with some really great points. Um and, and some great insights and yeah, so I appreciate so much. It would be awesome to do this in person. But uh yeah, thank you so

00:56:37.650 - 00:56:49.060

much for, for sharing and me learning from you all as well. Thank you and miss the crystal . If you can give me kindness and stop sharing your screen that way we can see the folks.

00:56:50.340 - 00:57:00.590

It's quite all right. So thank you so much uh for a timely and helpful message. So a lot of the comments uh in the chat. And so yeah, it's say a lot I think for

00:57:00.600 - 00:57:10.290

all of us as we are wrestling with kind of this deconstructing and reconstructing of history, theology and philosophy . Um I think Tom and Car Act some excellent questions very briefly. I kind of put it in

00:57:10.300 - 00:57:20.590

the chat about how N T Wright talks about that . We can be guilty of a generational snobbery that us in the 21st century can look back on the previous generations and say, Clutch the pearls. What

00:57:20.600 - 00:57:30.390

were they thinking? Uh When in reality, murder has always been murder, sexual assault has always been sexual assault. And the reality is there was a different ethic that was allowed for rules and regulations back

00:57:30.400 - 00:57:39.240

then. And we look back as Crystal was saying earlier, not to judge them and to critique them , but to be able to say, how on earth did we get here? How did we get

00:57:39.250 - 00:57:52.270

to a place where some countries and ethnic groups have so much economic capital and power and so many do not that in recognizing that we don't have underdeveloped countries but over exploited countries, it helps us to understand

00:57:52.280 - 00:58:00.240

how we've gotten here. It also invites us to make sure that what they did in the past, we do not repeat in the present to make sure that we can forge a better future for people.

00:58:00.250 - 00:58:09.500

And so Crystal, thank you immensely for that. Such a helpful and timely uh word and perspective. And we're going to run the process of creating a resources page on lifelong learning. And so we wanna

00:58:09.510 - 00:58:21.790

make sure that you've got resources to kind of continue this conversation in education and framework uh that crystals really launched us into today. So with that being said , uh join us next week or actually, yeah

00:58:21.800 - 00:58:34.030

, next week, uh Patricia Bunia will talk about a trauma informed faith formation. Uh Current events are urging churches and religious leaders to respond intentionally and thoughtfully to trauma and traumatic events. Uh What is trauma

00:58:34.040 - 00:58:45.490

? How does trauma affect congregations? What is a trauma informed faith formation practices can help uh congregations respond to communities affected by trauma? Uh Those some of the things that we're gonna be talking about next week

00:58:45.490 - 00:58:54.130

. So please make sure you join us. Uh again, Reverend Patricia Beni will be with us and Crystal. Thank you immensely. So take care of it. She's awesome. You can go see her

00:58:54.140 - 00:58:59.340

. She's incredible doctor. Ok, bye. Thank