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This afternoon in our third session of cultivating ideas, which is a series in which we invite Austin Seminary faculty to share with us things, they're working on things. They're excited about things that will help you

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in your life of faith and in your ministry, we are delighted to welcome Doctor Phil Helsel. He is our uh associate professor in the Nancy Taylor Williamson distinguished Chair in Pastoral Care. He joined the Austin

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Seminary Faculty in 2016 and he had previously served for four years on the faculty of Boston College School of Theology and Ministry. He earned his phd in Pastoral Theology and Practical Theology from Princeton Theological Seminary. He

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holds an M div in pastoral care and counseling from Princeton Seminary and the B A Suma LA in Bible and Religion from Anderson University. He is an ordained elder in the Presbyterian Church USA and he's the author

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of many articles and most recently, I think this is most recent book, Phil, Pastoral Care and Counseling and Introduction. He does teach our introduction to pastoral care courses here at the seminary, but he

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also was just telling me that he um teaches a course called Positive dispositions in pastoral care. And I think that sounds so intriguing and he said, it's one of the few classes where people leave studying about

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pastoral care, feeling happy and uplifted. So I'm really excited to hear how he's gonna share with us today about flourishing, drawing from the work of positive psychology and his own expertise and commitments to pastoral theology

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and practical theology and how that is lived out in our lives. So welcome Phil and thank you for being here. Thank you so much, Melissa for that wonderful introduction and for the work that you've done

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over the years, uh supporting pastoral care and um supporting the life of uh the mental health of ministers . And so I'm really excited that you've asked me to do this and to share with you all,

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um let me just kind of get started a little bit by um sharing just some of the vision here and where it comes from and given a, a couple caveats as I jump in. Uh the uh

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this is indeed based on a class that I've taught before called Pastoral care and the positive dispositions. And in that class, we've kind of walked through um different positive dispositions, like uh um empathy or joy

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, uh connection to nature, sexuality. And we've kind of explored deeply what those uh dispositions give to us. And then we've tried to build practices based on those dispositions in into our life. And the

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end of the class has students kind of um exploring like uh their own positive disposition. And so it becomes a chance for them to bring into the class , something that's really important to them, gratitude or

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music or uh I've had so many interesting ones, creative writing. Um So it's just been kind of building a little bit on research from that, that class as I share with you. And I'm gonna

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just have a conversation with you today rather than share a bunch of powerpoints in the background. Because if I shared powerpoints with you, my head would disappear . So I'll walk through kind of what I was

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gonna share with you in terms of powerpoints. And then um I'll do that kind of briefly 20 or 30 minutes and we can move to having some discussion . I'd really like for our conversation to break down

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a long kind of um uh two or three points . So we'll start out by talking about what it is that's interfering with our flourishing these days and kind of analyzing that. And then we'll turn to looking

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at some of the practices that help and um we're gonna kind of close with some questions and reflections uh maybe more how to, in practical matters. Um Does that sound like a good plan for everybody?

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Thumbs up? OK. So by the end of the class, you should have some, the basic ideas about what flourishing might mean and you might already have some tools to apply it in your life and

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ways to think through it and maybe ways to identify some of the things that might, uh, not be contributing to your flourishing as much as you'd like . So that's kind of the road map. Um

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, so, so there's gonna be several activities, uh, today and one of the first activities that I'd like to get started with is just, uh , pull out a piece of paper and write down

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three things that went well in the last 24 hours . And why? And we're gonna do this for a couple of minutes. And it's really important that you write down the why part of the question could

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be big, could be small, mixture of both . OK. So this is, um, this is one of my daily self care practices and something that I also have taught in the class, I

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encourage if we can stop here and you can do more later if you want. Um, I encourage the class to do it as well. And I make them kind of in the first like month and

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a half of class, right, every day, their top three things that went well and why? And then reflect on that in the journal exercise right after like the first assignment in class. And,

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um, it really like that exercise itself really increases your mental well being and it does. So even like one of the most important parts to do is the why, um, why did it matter to

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you that this particular thing went well. Um And so, uh, let me also just give the disclaimer that none of the advice or tips that I'm gonna give today are meant to take the place of

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good medical advice or uh going and seeing your psychiatrist or counselor or spiritual director or taking medicine, um to feel better, all those things. I'm a big fan of. So I don't, I'm not

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uh intending any of my presentation today to be uh distract from those particular approaches. Um So I was thinking a little bit as I got started um about kind of the Apostle Paul and his injunction to um

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focus on things um that are good, just wise , um honorable think on these things. And I was also thinking about and so this whole presentation has to do with that a little bit what it means

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to actively kind of clear out a space for goodness in our hearts. And then I was also thinking about uh Paul's injunction um that he's been able to find a way to be content in whatever circumstances life

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has thrown him. And so I was thinking about how that um might play here as well. Ok . So now I'm getting started on the hope you enjoyed the three things that went well exercised. Uh

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You can do that um kind of in any point in your life. Um And you can actually write more than three things that's totally fine and, um , you can, you could get carried away.

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It's completely ok if you do that. But the most important thing is to write. Why? And that's where you get into the relational stuff and that kind of thing. Ok. So let's talk a

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little bit about what seems to be kind of going wrong with flourishing or happiness right now. Um, people are wealthier than ever. There's, uh, but there's lower levels of happiness than there used to

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be. So, um part of what uh seems to be going on is higher materialism along with lower levels of happiness. So college students today are, are, are more materialistic and less satisfied. Um

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And are usually driven around, often driven around more materialistic goals than in the last few decades. And they're less likely to reflect on like a life philosophy that's guiding them in the, in their decisions and

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materialism in college, interestingly predicted unhappiness and higher mental , higher mental illnesses two decades later. So, um what, what we're seeing is a kind of uh we should be in situations where we're happier,

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but we're less happy than we could be. So , let's talk a little bit about why. That is one of the, one of the factors is um what's called miss wanting. It's just being mistaken

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about what you're gonna like and how much you're gonna like something in the future. So you might have a particular goal in mind. Um You might wanna make a particular, uh, career, uh,

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switch or you might want a particular, uh, aspect of status and you'll think it'll make you happy , but it actually makes you less happy than you think it will. So, um, you can

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be deceived about how much you'll enjoy something in the future. And that's a pretty common trick that our minds play on us kind of, um, being what they call miss wanting. Um, there's another

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, uh, thing that plays a role and that's the role of social comparison. So um people would rather make$50,000 and be around people making$25,000 than make$100,000 around people making$250,000. So um social

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comparison is a very powerful factor. Um There's kind of controversy about social media's impact, but social media might be one of those places where people kind of present curated visions of themselves. And then we all

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kind of compare our ourselves and our meltdowns to the like the nicest moments of other people's lives. And then we have a fear of missing out on all those kinds of things as well. Uh May may

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not always give us the community that we hope for . Although I'd say a caveat with the LGBT Q folks for whom uh social media and internet uh connections on the internet can be really powerful as well.

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So that's a mixed sword when it comes to uh social comparison. There's one more um effect I wanna mention. Um that kind of gets in the way of our happiness. Um It's kind of a balancing

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out effect. So we exaggerate how much will be impacted by bad outcomes, not getting the internship we wanted, and we downplay how much we'll enjoy good ones. So people like people making are winning the

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lottery are not as happy as they would have thought . Um those kinds of things. So we just don't do a very good job forecasting, how we're gonna respond emotionally to bad events and our own minds

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tend to kind of flatten them out over time. So there's less of a bump for the bad stuff or good stuff. And we have a way of kind of like settling our minds back into even keel

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a little bit. Ok. So now I'm, I'm launching into the more positive part of the presentation a little bit here and presenting you with some of the happiness research. Sorry, I'm doing this without

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the slide. So I'm just kind of gonna have to give you the information. So, um happiness researchers have found that um, if you think about what are the factors that contribute to happiness? Like

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what, like what role does genetics play, life circumstances, thoughts or actions, you might have a guess about that in your mind. It turns out that about 50% of happiness is genetics. 10% is

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life circumstances and 40% is our thoughts and actions And so, um, when I found that out, that was really surprising to me. Um, so I, I thought we can really do a great

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deal in kind of changing the habits uh with which we engage and um the, the thoughts that we have about our life. So now I'm gonna introduce , so if we can play, play with that

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40% a little bit, our thoughts and actions about our circumstances. One of the ways we could do that is with a model of flourishing. And I'm gonna introduce a model of flourishing that was coined by

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the psychologist Marty Seligman in his um concept of flourishing in his book Flourishing. And there's five parts. So if you like acronyms get ready, the acronym is Perma. Um And so I'll check that out

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as well. So you can see it. Um Perma is positive emotions, like hope, interest, joy, love, compassion, pride, amusement, and gratitude and um positive emotions are either they,

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they occur spontaneously or we can foster them kind of return to them. But positive emotions, um we can get into this a little bit more as well . They also kind of broaden and build a space

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in the soul that's receptive to more positive emotions. So like fostering joy or hope, compassion, um curiosity, uh connection to nature or uh sexual intimacy , they might uh like deepen our connection to our

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own emotional well being so that we can return more easily to those positive emotions in the future. So that's the first one. Positive emotions. Number two is engagement or flow. The e um And so

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this is like, when do you kind of uh get in the zone where you um leave the world's worries behind? And you're just kind of like on autopilot, but in a good way, I mean

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, it's like you're learning an instrument or you're doing something that really like takes your mind to a new place. It's that state of flow that brings relaxation and calm and joy and creativity with it. Um

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R is relationships. So what's the nature of your relationships? Do you have like close relationships where you can let your hair down and people who really know you and can be honest with you. Um Do

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you have like colleagues who you can run things by if you reach a tricky situation, do you have like someone close to you who knows your secrets or maybe you could pay to do that for you?

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Um uh Sometimes paid friends are, are nice uh as well. So relationships and then there's also weak ties which are like your everyday people you run into in the coffee shop and that kind of thing.

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But who know you over time and those kinds of relationships seem to matter as well. So like, um what's the nature of people who can just kind of get down there with you and bless you and

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accompany you on life's journey? Um and like uh really show you that they're not over against you, but with you, um as, as you're walking through life's journey, those are the kind of relationships

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that really help on this flourishing model. And the , the uh fourth one now is meaning. So um this is the sense that you're giving something back to the world that's bigger than yourself. And that

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makes, that's gonna make some um difference, appreciable difference. Um Even if it's small, um having a source of meaning could be really important like at a particular uh junction or season in your life.

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Um And people will go through a lot of sacrifice to eventually have a sense of meaning in their work and um in their environments. And if they have meaning they can do a lot of things and work

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through a lot of adversity as well. And the final one is kind of surprising, it's accomplishment for accomplishment's sake. So this one is like you just do things to get them done and like you're just

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that kind of person, um maybe relate to this . You're the, you might be the person who checks off their to do list um in the morning or every, you know, every other day or

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something. And really uh takes pride in being organized but accomplishment for its own sake. So there's kind of a meaning in that as well. So, Perma, positive emotions, engagement, relationships, meaning

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and accomplishment, all those things go together and um they provide a clearer picture of flourishing than any single one like moment in time. When you ask somebody if they're flourishing or satisfied with their life. Instead

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, if you measure all these five things, Perma , you get a clearer picture of where they are in their life. And um it's a better measure of flourishing than just a one time asking someone if

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they're satisfied with their life. It's turned out to be really like quite strong uh uh clinically as well . OK. So, um now I'm gonna get into some of the things that we did in the

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class that were actually assignments in the class. And um uh so one of the, and we'll just , I'll just introduce them to you as practices for flourishing as well. One of the ideas behind the

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class is this kind of broaden and build theory of emotions that was uh coined by Barbara Fredrickson. And she says when we foster positive experiences, we have greater bandwidth for the stressful times in our lives and

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a reservoir of skills that we can then return to . So, um you might kind of uh consider this kind of like positive reminiscences or something like that . How much are you able to um when you're

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stressed out and you come back from a busy day ? Are, are you able to kind of return to a happy place or like a peaceful person in your life or a, a joyful memory? And

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that um that term like positive reminiscences is the opposite of like um fixating or ruminating and po positive reminiscences kind of creates the feelings again of positive emotions that , that then like just really expand the soul and

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allow it to breathe and allow it to encounter more even further joy. So, um that's the kind of broaden and build theory of emotions and already you might have a sense of like how good you are

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at the positive reminiscences. Just by hearing that description you might be able to think, am I good at that or you know, am I able to kind of return there? Um And that might be

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a practice as well? OK. So one of the first things that um we talked about in the class and we looked at uh and I'm no uh Melissa's done work on this as well is um gratitude

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. So um one of the things that I had them do as an assignment, I had him choose between two assignments. One of the assignments was write a letter of gratitude and deliver it in person and

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read it out loud to someone that who's in, who's had a like the greatest impact on your emotional and uh physical well being. And um a lot of my students did this assignment and um they found

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it really uh like grounding and life giving. And um several of them told some really powerful stories about what it meant to the people that they brought the letter to. And then what happens if it goes

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well? Is that that person then becomes even greater resource for you in your, in your psychic landscape or your community of your heart. That person then becomes somebody you can return to in your mind and

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say, what would this person say to me right now? Like, can I kind of uh channel them a little bit? Writing that letter of gratitude puts you back in touch with that person in a

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way that could be like uh just help you feel that they're a part of your life again in a fresh way. Uh A little caveat or warning, I found the, the letter of gratitude activities went

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best if it wasn't like a supercharged relationship, like a really close and complicated relationship. Um Those can be complicated because there are bids for attention or trying to get over a drama from the past. So

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um if I was going to do it over again , I'd encourage students, maybe not to do those kinds of story, those kinds of letters as their letter of gratitude. That's a kind of a little

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more complicated step, at least for this initial uh try. So again, writing a letter of gratitude , like um writing your three things that went well in the last 24 hours, um really adds an

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incredible boost to your well being and can reduce uh anxiety and depression um significantly. So it's a really , like power, careful, um, kind of soul work activity. Ok. The other thing that

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I have students do if they want to do that is, um, do a random act of kindness that, uh, they undertake for strangers or others . And this could be like through a church program

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or something like that. Uh, or it could be, you know, bringing along, um, food and drink and giving it to people as you're seeing, passing them on the highway. Um something

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like that where you have a chance to uh undertake uh a kind act for strangers and um under undertaking kindness for others has a really powerful impact on joy . It increases the joy in our lives. Ok

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, so I'm gonna, I'm coming towards the end here and I'm gonna just close with a couple of thoughts. One. I wanna introduce you to the idea of Lozada ratios. I don't know if you

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know this uh concept from your work, I'll chat it out because it's a new term. Um but Lozada ratios are the ratios of positive to negative comments . Um and they found that like the re uh

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flourishing researchers find that uh in the healthiest corporations have a 3 to 1 ratio, three positive comments to every negative con comment. Um and it's really important that it's not organizations don't have uh zero negative comments

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, right? It's not good if you have 15 to 0 as a low O ratio because uh institutions do need to be correcting themselves and critiquing themselves. But they found the healthiest ratio is about a 3

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to 1 ratio um for the organization that you lead or something like that. And then when it comes to your personal life, they say it's a 5 to 1 for the people closest to you, they

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need a 5 to 1. If you're going to critique the way that they load the dishwasher or something , they need five positives or something on the other side. Um So, uh that's the idea of

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Lazada ratio. Um Now I'm gonna close with kind of like one final uh piece that we do in the class. Um I introduce people to the notions of signature strengths and um I'll uh I'm gonna chat

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this out to you as well and you can take the test if you like. Um I'll give you , I'll put the link in the chat. Um So signature strengths are those parts of your personality that

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are really like they're raring to go. I mean , they are just like you are ready to do these particular things. And um if you feel like it, you can log on to this website,

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you have to give them your email, sorry about that. But you can take your signature strengths. And the most important thing is that you focus on your top four or five signature strengths and you try

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to do those things in your workplace more often So what I had students do in class was I had them take the signature strengths test and then I had them focus on a signature strength in a difficult part

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of their seminary or work life. And just try to use that signature strength. Say your signature strength is an appreciation for beauty. Well, you would approach your like your next seminary assignment with an appreciation

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for beauty in mind. And then they had to journal on what that meant to them to try out their signature strengths. So especially if you have like an obstacle in your life or something that's not going

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as smoothly as you would like. Um using your signature strengths and maybe cycling through your top four or five signature strengths can really be a powerful, like uh way to get you back on track again and

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get you started like really loving what you're doing in ways um that bring like more of your personal investment . There's parts when you do the signature strength test , you'll also see the things that are your really

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low signature strengths. Um I don't know, we , we don't have time to get into that. Exactly. That might be a different presentation or uh you have your five deadly sins or something like that

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at the bottom of your list. But uh focusing on your own signature strengths can be a really powerful tool as well. And I found students got a lot out of that uh part of the class as

00:25:00.860 - 00:25:14.770

well. So, um I'm gonna just summarize really quickly here and we've talked through a lot pretty fast . Um I, uh we started by talking about some of the things that don't make us as happy

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. And um we looked at uh mis wanting um materialism, social comparison and um we looked kind of how, how ubiquitous those are. We're, we're kind of materially better off now, but we're less

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happy than we used to be. And we turned the kind of like a broaden and build theory of emotions. And we looked especially at um this idea of Perma uh positive emotions, engagement, relationships,

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meaning and accomplishments. Um And we looked at how like fostering those particular things can be really powerful, you could kind of uh focus on each of them in turn really if you wanted to kind of strengthen

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your flourishing. And then we looked at some particular activities like the three things that went well and why gratitude, kindness and the Strength Survey. And we looked at some particular ways that like you could um

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like strengthen your own particular experience of happiness, actually reduce even levels of clinical depression by a significant amount by engaging in some of these activities or maybe all of them if you wanted to and writing about them

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and talking, talking about them with others. Um And I don't know, I don't know if you feel this way a little bit too and I'll kind of come to a close, but sometimes for me

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, I have to really, like, include physical self care, like, uh, eating well and sleeping eight hours a night and things like that. Um, and I also sometimes have to take breaks

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from things like social media or the news. I , during COVID I stopped, uh, listening to the news or watching it and now I just read it on the Sunday newspaper and I kind of like

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, get all my news on Sunday. I just found it was like a little too intense all the time. I don't know if we're made for those levels of stress or not, but I'm just kind

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of riffing on a couple of like self care practices that I think are kind of important to me, you know, not checking email late at night or doing work late at night. You might have some

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practices like that, that kind of help you return to that positive state of positive reminiscences I was talking about before, which I don't know if you have a sense of like how easy you're able to return

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to that. But that can be a pretty good , like um kind of marker for mental health overall too, like just how easily are you able to foster positive emotions in your life? And can you

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can you kind of return pretty quickly to a place of uh gratitude or joy or hope or empathy and compassion? Um And like, and if if, if you're not able to, but you used to

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be able to what's different now and those kinds of things. So those might just be some like self diagnostic things you'd be thinking about as well. Um ok, that was a lot. But uh thanks

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so much. I'll turn to questions now and I'm so glad you're on here. Yes. I, I'm just, you know, trying to make myself stay to the end before I go and do my

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signature strengths and practice all the other things. I'm so inspired, Phil, but we do have time for some questions. And because of the size of this group, let's start by asking you to put

00:28:22.650 - 00:28:42.710

your questions in the chat and I will um I will voice those um for all of us to hear , I know one thing I would was struck by in your presentation, Phil was this breakdown of the

00:28:42.720 - 00:29:00.270

50 10 and 40. And part of what that helped me realize is uh just getting curious about that 50% that is genetic, you know, and it got me thinking about the things I struggle with and

00:29:00.280 - 00:29:11.010

thinking back about my parents. And, you know , we have a grandmother that everybody says was she suffered from melancholia. You know, that was a kind of 1/19 century word I think. But it's

00:29:11.020 - 00:29:22.090

, it's, I don't know, in an interesting way, makes me feel better to think that there's a big chunk of what I struggle with in my own happiness that I just was born with. And

00:29:22.100 - 00:29:36.820

that doesn't mean I'm, you know, dude, but, um, it just really was helpful to get that full picture. I don't know how they measured that, but I found it really sounded about

00:29:36.830 - 00:29:53.200

right to me. Yeah, thank you so much . Um I think that that particular C citation is from a book about Happiness by, um, Sonya Lara Bay or something. I'm gonna butcher it.

00:29:53.210 - 00:30:06.710

But um yeah, Melissa, I'm interested in what you said. Um because I think it's counterintuitive, but it's almost a blessing. On the other hand to say that 50% of it is genetic. Um

00:30:06.720 - 00:30:22.520

It's a way of kind of honoring what, like what the ancestors gave us too and kind of not letting that just like, distinctively shape our response to it. But also like honoring also thinking back on

00:30:22.530 - 00:30:33.090

those uh people that we've known who've suffered in our families and uh and people who've been close to us and kind of, I think too, I wish that they would have had all the resources that we

00:30:33.100 - 00:30:47.680

have now in terms of talking about feelings and um like self definition and resources. And I just think um that's an element of compassion too that thinking there's so many uh things that we can do now and

00:30:47.690 - 00:30:57.030

resources that we have that can help us move forward . Uh I wish that folks who struggled in the previous generations would have had that as well. I wonder, uh what richness might have come from that

00:30:57.040 - 00:31:10.570

too. Yeah, I totally, I totally agree . Thanks, Melissa. Yeah. So we have some questions. Um And hello, Courtney, it's nice to see you. And her question is what

00:31:10.580 - 00:31:23.850

the heck is happiness? That's my translation. She really said, please define happiness maybe in contrast or comparison to joy. Yeah. I'm um, I'm really grateful for this. Thanks, Courtney. Uh

00:31:25.650 - 00:31:42.140

I think one thing that uh I would just kind of go with that Perma definition, Courtney, the positive emotions, um engagement or flow relationship, uh meaning and accomplishment for accomplishment's sake. And the reason

00:31:42.150 - 00:31:56.830

why I think that's like a pretty nice definition of happiness is it's well rounded and it takes into account different aspects of our life that might be different, might be stronger at different times. Um We might

00:31:56.840 - 00:32:13.060

be like especially strong at meaning and uh engagement, but we might have a weak period in relationships in our life. And um even just remembering the Perma like uh acronym as a resource I find is really

00:32:13.070 - 00:32:23.680

helpful, like um to kind of try to balance those things out and you can also take an online test and test your own Perma. Um kind of like see where you are on all, all those

00:32:23.690 - 00:32:37.750

diff on all those different factors. And it's, it's interesting because you can have uh probably not surprising to you that you could have strengths and positive emotions or engagement, um or relationships, meaning and accomplishment

00:32:37.860 - 00:32:47.600

. But I think looking at them all together, it provides a really nice and balanced definition of happiness . So I might just go with that as a , as a kind of uh go to definition of

00:32:47.610 - 00:33:02.850

happiness. Um I uh I'm not um exactly sure how to distinguish it from joy. Um Except for that, like maybe joy has a little bit of a sense of the limit situation to it, like

00:33:02.860 - 00:33:17.030

the the mountain Peak experience. And there's also a lot you can do um to foster joy in terms of like helping others really helps you foster joy as well. Like being involved in the world really like

00:33:17.040 - 00:33:29.420

increases your sense of joy. I'm thinking here about the Book of Joy that I assigned in the class by the Dalai Lama and Desmond Tutu. And my students are really like, impressed that leaders, religious

00:33:29.430 - 00:33:40.320

leaders who've gone through everything that those two men have gone through can have such a strong sense of joy . And it really comes back to both their religious practice and they're also their commitment to this, like

00:33:40.330 - 00:33:52.140

trying to alleviate the suffering in the world, which they also say brings them joy. So, yeah , great question Courtney. And if I can uh put in a plug that feels too modest to put

00:33:52.150 - 00:34:07.940

in for himself, he's one of the authors of uh a part of the curriculum that's about Joy for adolescence and it's used in uh Youth Ministries. It was, it's, it's really good. It's you

00:34:07.950 - 00:34:22.720

, if you're interested, it's at the Yale Institute for Youth Ministry and it's a whole curriculum. Uh around Joy. Ok. We have another, yeah , we have another question here from Pamela Mitchell that

00:34:22.730 - 00:34:37.130

has to do with the, the variable of age and how age it impacts our experience and our attitudes of positivism. She's noticed that people in their seventies seem to be more appreciative than we were in our

00:34:37.140 - 00:34:54.370

fifties is what Pamela says. What about that age factor? Yeah, I've heard it uh described as the, the third act, not that I have any experience with aging but uh there um yeah,

00:34:54.380 - 00:35:10.720

I think this isn't um exactly my area of expertise but I think that um I, I think kind of one of the main people who does work on this that I'm really interested in is called uh his

00:35:10.730 - 00:35:30.400

name is Gene Cohen and I'll chat, chat him out as well. Um I'm trying to see if I can spot his book really quickly. Oh, yeah, I have it real quick. Um Can

00:35:30.410 - 00:35:45.730

you see this the mature mind, the positive power of the aging brain? Um So uh I can chat that out too. Um And he says that actually, um the brain goes through changes as people

00:35:45.740 - 00:35:59.840

age and becomes more flexible, um more grateful, uh more tuned into social emotion. Um And so he reframes aging in a lot of ways that are pretty powerful for me and pretty compelling. So he

00:35:59.850 - 00:36:14.790

does a lot with kind of creativity in later life and he uh helps people become, get practice as artists in later life as well. Um And so I think there's a lot of um potential for kind

00:36:14.800 - 00:36:29.730

of life review early on. Um And like people kind of getting a chance to explore their legacy as well. Um And uh you know, some people have struggles with social supports and become isolated in their

00:36:29.740 - 00:36:44.190

older years or they have long journeys of caregiving, which can also really impact their experience of well being . Um But I also think that there's a distinctive spiritual journey in the final third of life. Um

00:36:44.400 - 00:36:59.980

We, uh we used to think um, well , the, the life cycle theorists like Erick Erickson and others really stopped with the sixties and um now people are living in the sixties, 70 80 90

00:37:00.040 - 00:37:09.180

. And so we have a whole a full third of people's life that hasn't really been well theorized and we're not sure what goes on, but some people kind of split it out into the decades and say

00:37:09.220 - 00:37:21.920

, you know, the seventies have a distinctive set of psychological tests, the eighties, the nineties. Um but I would guess it has something to do with kind of um gracefully responding to the changes in

00:37:21.930 - 00:37:36.790

our bodies while uh trying to stay connected with one another and serve uh be of service to the world as well. Wow, that's great. I've ordered that book on Amazon while you're talking. I need

00:37:36.800 - 00:37:53.200

it. Um, Teresa's Teres. Hello, Teres has asked, what, how would you take this Perma framework and infuse it or connect it more with the spiritual life and particularly, um, our Christian

00:37:53.650 - 00:38:07.740

theology. Yeah, those are great. That's a great question there. It's nice to see you again . I really enjoyed having you as a student, Teres. Um And uh so that's a real joy

00:38:07.750 - 00:38:22.890

to see former students on here and colleagues as well . Um I think uh well, there's a lot of different ways of kind of thinking about. Um in my class, we do some work with this

00:38:22.900 - 00:38:37.070

and try to kind of distinguish this perspective from kind of Pollyanna optimism a little bit. Um And one of the, one of the things that we think about too is kind of that notion of from the

00:38:37.080 - 00:38:49.210

gospel of John, that Jesus has come to give us life and more abundantly kind of trying to understand what that abundance of life looks like. There's also a sense in John's gospel that you kind of,

00:38:49.690 - 00:39:01.950

you dwell in the spirit, which becomes both like an advocate for you and also a source of support and that um that partaking in the spirit of God um is like one of the ways that the like

00:39:01.960 - 00:39:14.990

the soul is refreshed and restored. And I'm also thinking we also get in, there's these lists in the New Testament, like lists of virtues or fruits of the spirit. Interestingly, the fruit of the

00:39:15.000 - 00:39:28.270

spirit list and um Galatians is, is all about uh church conflict. So it's kind of all about like, uh it's a list of the ways that we should be with one another in a setting that

00:39:28.280 - 00:39:38.830

, that the church was disagreeing fundamentally about who they are, um, with one another. And so I'm thinking like, when we think about like the spiritual gifts or the, the gifts of the spirit

00:39:38.840 - 00:39:52.580

in Galatians, I wonder if we could kind of connect it uh in some ways to our experience of positive emotions um to some of the aspects of Perma . Um What I love about the new c notion

00:39:52.590 - 00:40:06.780

of gifts is that they're really meant for the whole community. And so in a way, those theological ideas add something significant to, to kind of the positive psychology spin on things which tends to be a

00:40:06.790 - 00:40:17.810

little in individualistic, that's a weakness that it has . But, yeah. Wow, that's really help , that's helpful. And, you know, as long as we're talking about the church, Kelly's asked

00:40:17.820 - 00:40:31.050

the question about clergy burnout. That is something we hear a lot about. Some people on this call may be wrestling with that. And what's the pivot from burnout to flourishing? Um You know, are

00:40:31.060 - 00:40:49.090

there practices that you would recommend? And as, as she points out, people say, I don't have any time for self care. And so I , but you're talking about you're not using the language

00:40:49.100 - 00:41:01.270

of self care. So, is there a distinction there? And then from your perspective, what is that move from burnout to flourishing? Where do you start? Yeah. Um Thanks. Thanks for that

00:41:01.280 - 00:41:22.340

, Kelly. Um The uh a lot of this kind of depends on how far down the road you feel like you are in some ways. Um The , the vicarious, the idea of like vicarious trauma

00:41:22.350 - 00:41:34.980

that uh comes from the literature says that when you've experienced a lot of people's trauma, you kind of experience a diminishment of your own sense of spirituality and things that were meaningful to you in the past spiritually

00:41:34.990 - 00:41:51.870

are not as meaningful any longer. Um And I think like, you're really right, like there's a way in which um clergy are really struggling, they're being challenged in fundamental ways, like in their very

00:41:51.880 - 00:42:04.700

identity as ministers in ways that they haven't been before . And that challenge is like, really coming more frequently and more often. Um I think um than ever before in this very po uh kind of polarized

00:42:04.710 - 00:42:21.200

time. Um And then one of the challenges too is that sometimes clergy who are struggling, seek people who are at a similar level of struggling. So instead of unnecessarily reaching out to the people who are

00:42:21.210 - 00:42:32.850

flourishing the most, they might kind of make common cause with folks who are experiencing some of the same patterns that they're going through and that can be nice in a way because it's like a nice mirror.

00:42:32.860 - 00:42:49.170

But it also doesn't necessarily uh like give you some of the kind of resources or refreshment that might be helpful. I don't know. Um s some of this I think has to do with kind of how

00:42:49.180 - 00:43:02.160

we evaluate the stresses that we're going through in ministry . And um I was, I've been reading some things about clergy self care and it seems like clergy take their jobs very seriously and very personally. And

00:43:02.170 - 00:43:14.640

so they tend to experience real highs at work, but also real lows. And they also tend to perceive as failures, things that other people might not perceive as failures. Um So they could be the

00:43:14.650 - 00:43:24.520

kind of their own worst critic in a way. Then you also add into that all the ways that they have to kind of be subject to people's uh critique and, and scrutiny. I don't know,

00:43:24.530 - 00:43:42.090

I would kind of uh covet like a chance to maybe set some emotional boundaries and like uh have a break from all the voices that are around you and clergy work and have a chance to really restore like

00:43:42.490 - 00:43:52.970

the amount of positive emotions that come into your life from day to day and then work on kind of your own ability to, to recreate that positive reminiscence for yourself. And this might, again, this

00:43:52.980 - 00:44:04.600

might be something that takes a little extra support by others depending on how discouraged you, it seems like you feel. Um And it also might need, you know, some coaching or some help from someone

00:44:04.610 - 00:44:15.740

who can kind of hear your story and the distinctive struggles that you're walking through sometimes that, that does better if it's not a supervisor, but it's someone who's like at a peer level, um who can

00:44:16.010 - 00:44:30.370

, um, like I understand and identify with the distinctive struggles that people are going through. Um And I think, uh I think those activities we talked about um the three things that went well and gratitude

00:44:30.380 - 00:44:43.690

and kindness can be helpful parts. But I would say it also depends on how far along on the stress road you are. And um you might need some more basic like kind of like stress supports too

00:44:43.700 - 00:44:53.750

and um boundaries and uh breaks. I don't, I don't know if breaks can come your way too . Um But I know some of this can sound a little bit idealistic as well. I don't know

00:44:53.760 - 00:45:15.960

, Kelly, I hope that was helpful. I really appreciate where your question comes from. Ok. Um One we haven't gotten to, is this AJ has asked the question about um your signature strengths and

00:45:15.970 - 00:45:31.720

some of us have taken strengths assessments and our signature strengths change over time. Is that to be expected ? Yeah, I think that really is possible and it kind of depends like on particular seasons in your

00:45:31.730 - 00:45:45.570

life and what kind of work you're doing and, um, what like your work brings out of you . I think certain strengths can be also, like , really match up with certain seasons in the life

00:45:45.580 - 00:45:59.250

cycle. You can have certain strengths that are related to, um, parenting or taking care of other people's Children or, uh, grandparent or strengths related to, uh, middle aged or older adulthood or

00:45:59.260 - 00:46:12.510

young adulthood. Um, I think they really do change over time. I wouldn't be surprised if there's also a core of maybe two or three that are , that remain important to you. And those might

00:46:12.520 - 00:46:22.270

be kind of people who know you really well, might recognize those things as, oh yeah, they're , you're really driven by that, like, of course you come alive when that happens. So,

00:46:22.420 - 00:46:32.950

yeah. Um I, I think the signature strings can change based on um our environment and our season in life. And also, I think there's some that are probably gonna be a part of you long

00:46:32.960 - 00:46:51.090

term. Too great. I think that's, that's very hopeful. Um All right, Amy has a question, a member of a church staff, assistant to the pastors. So it's a church staff person

00:46:51.340 - 00:47:09.340

. What practices do you recommend for assisting pastors and staff in this way of um flourishing? How do you help somebody else do it? That's really good . Uh Question Amy. Um Again, we've talked

00:47:09.350 - 00:47:21.420

a little bit about this kind of like impossible job . That's ministry, right? I mean, has anybody looked at the minister's like a job description recently and uh looked at all the things that you're supposed

00:47:21.430 - 00:47:36.960

to be good at. Um I think 11 thing is to really understand um kind of how much criticism pastors are in for these days and really try to do everything you can to be a countervailing voice doesn't

00:47:36.970 - 00:47:52.580

mean that you go cheerleader optimistic or anything like that . But I would say, uh really refrain from critiquing your pastor and encourage them and um like, also have respect for all the different kinds of work

00:47:52.590 - 00:48:07.730

that they might be doing at a given time. So there's a like the pastor's work might alternate with the really joyful and the really sorrowful and uh work in one week that they, they might um be

00:48:07.740 - 00:48:16.770

completely at a loss around. Um And those are kind of the hard, really hard things that, that come up in ministry, sometimes the really difficult traumas and what have you. And I just think

00:48:16.780 - 00:48:28.990

we don't, we don't always know that the ministers that we're working with have dealt with those things as well as um all the other planning and more public roles that we see them do from week to week

00:48:29.000 - 00:48:45.870

. So uh I think just uh a kind of gratitude and grace and um encouragement for them and then also just fostering encouragement in the congregational system as well so that uh people are encouraged to like, welcome

00:48:45.880 - 00:48:55.720

and support their pastor. So, yeah, yeah , that makes me think about your 3 to 1 ratio, the Losada ratio, you know, to , to kind of have an awareness of that in

00:48:55.730 - 00:49:17.050

the congregation. Um We have a little bit of time. Any la any other question you can raise your hand. If you don't wanna write it in the chat, I could say something about Kelly's question

00:49:17.060 - 00:49:29.220

about the three things exercise versus gratitude journal. I'm sorry, I missed that one. Yes. Thank you, Bill. Sure. Yeah. Um The three things that went well is like one level down

00:49:29.230 - 00:49:38.640

from a gratitude journal. Of course, if you're perceptive, you could realize it's just a gratitude journal . But but you don't have to say that you're grateful for something to say that it went well.

00:49:38.650 - 00:49:50.050

So it could be something minor in your life and then you're just, you're listing the reasons why that went well and that can include some of your, your personal relationships. It can make you more grateful

00:49:50.110 - 00:49:59.990

uh eventually, but it can also just be a source of meaning like and kind of discernment. Oh , I really like this part of my day. Like I thought I had a really frustrating week for

00:50:00.000 - 00:50:10.460

this given reason. But like every single day, I had three things that went well and like they were uh some of them were like out of my control but grace and like just looking at those things

00:50:10.610 - 00:50:20.720

and not having to say that you're grateful for them is kind of nice at the same time. So you just write 33 things that went well, kind of neutrally. And then, uh why that,

00:50:20.730 - 00:50:30.710

why they matter to you. And, um, it's interesting to see, uh what people emphasize. Some people are very relational, some people, it's like just the fact, just the facts, what

00:50:30.720 - 00:50:42.230

the tasks that they go through or what have you , uh, different people value different things. But , yeah, I was wondering about, you know , even using that as an exercise at the opening

00:50:42.240 - 00:50:55.020

of a session meeting or a committee meeting or something and just have people say that thing and how that might set a tone for people to enter into the space together. I think it is fun. I

00:50:55.030 - 00:51:04.890

mean, I just did it recently at a Sunday school class. I did a similar presentation as this with a Sunday school class and I was having people come up to me out of the blue sharing the

00:51:04.900 - 00:51:14.510

three things that went well and, um, they were telling me about people in their lives and I was just like, cool. Yeah, it gets , you don't even necessarily have to share the details

00:51:14.520 - 00:51:23.220

, but you could just share what the exercise was like with one another if you wanted to and it could kind of help. Mhm. I know. I'm just, I'm just busted to hear what the

00:51:23.230 - 00:51:32.800

rest of y'all said is one of your three things , but we don't have time. Unfortunately. And thank you, Phil. We're at the end of our time, folks and I put in the chat

00:51:32.810 - 00:51:46.300

, a link to an evaluation form. If you would take a moment to give us some feedback, we would appreciate it so we can um be accountable for how we use our resources and so we can

00:51:46.310 - 00:52:01.210

improve and do better. You may know Phil's also leading a webinar series that is called conversations and well being. and you are invited to participate in that too. You can find all the information on our

00:52:01.220 - 00:52:20.990

website under the tab lifelong learning. Our next episode of Cultivating Ideas will be on October 26th. We're not meeting before then because of fall break at the seminary and this will be with Doctor Asante Todd and

00:52:21.000 - 00:52:37.070

he will talk about religion, uh relation recognition and religious biodiversity on the ethics of ecological respect. I don't even know what that means. I'm so curious to come and hear what he has to say.

00:52:37.200 - 00:52:52.190

He has suggested that you might want to watch the movie Avatar one as a touch point for this. So if you are looking for a reason to watch a movie, I wanna tell you it's your homework

00:52:52.940 - 00:53:05.170

. And um I'm sure Asante, always his mind is just incredibly interesting and I can't wait to hear what he has to say. I hope we'll see you on October 26th. That really good Melissa.