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Good afternoon, everyone. Uh My name is Shawn Watkins. I serve as Associate Dean for Lifelong Learning and I want to welcome you to cultivating ideas. Our webinar series offered here at Austin Presbyterian Theological Seminary

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that showcases our best and our brightest faculty. And so I'm very excited for us today. My good brother and friend, Doctor Rod Carruthers is with us . Uh Doctor Rodney Carruthers, the second joined the

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faculty of Austin Presbyterian Theological Seminary in 2022. He is a specialist in Second Temple Judaism with a particular focus on the formation of the diverse literature, religion and practices of early Judaism and Christianity in antiquity.

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Doctor Brothers is particularly interested in the production and the function of ancient Jewish and Christian narrative literature and how the writings intersected it with everyday religious beliefs and customs . Uh His webinar today will consider the historical and

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theological development of Jesus as the son of man along with the connections to the day of Yahweh. How Jesus was received as the son of man by his followers and how the title informed his ministry and the

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formation of the early church will be considered uh on a personal note as all of you all know, uh last month, we got the opportunity to host an event called Politics and Faith, where we showcased

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our best and brightest um for some of our best and brightest faculty here at Austin Seminary. And Doctor Carruthers was on that panel. He did a phenomenal job of navigating both the pastoral, the theological uh

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and also giving us a spiritual commentary on political matters . And so he's one of those professors that does the dance that can both speak to the academy, but the streets as I call it and so very

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excited to have him with us today, Doctor Carruthers . It is all yours. Take it away, right. Thank you, Doctor Watkins for that, that gracious introduction. Let me go ahead and share

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my screen with you all. And while I'm doing this, let me also just uh give my appreciation to lifelong learning and also uh our colleague uh Michaela for uh her assistance and for putting on this type

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of event. I think this is a, just a tremendous uh type of event that is uh great for our community, for our students uh for our alumni. Uh When I look at the lineup of

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the topics, I, I mean, I just smile and sometimes shake my head and boy, you all are getting uh just tremendous um uh ideas and topics and I can't wait for the discussion today.

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So this uh topic is one that has been of great interest to me from suffering to glory Jesus as the son of man and Mark's Gospel. My, my time uh serving in ministry, certainly um my

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studies before coming here to Austin Seminary. This has been one of those uh ideas where in order to get the understanding, we need a broader, a broader range. Um more sources, uh more ideas

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to trace what's happening. So the son of man uh is one of those uh when we think about priest political titles uh that requires this type of in depth study. So what I'd like to do is

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just talk about a few ways that we can trace that development um and see how it's significant for understanding for reading interpretation. Then I'll talk about some of the sources that we can use to do that.

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So um throughout this, think about how we might present it, whether it's in preaching, whether it's in Bible studies. So some things will be relatively uh new, but I think we can address those

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in the discussion portion of this presentation. So let me just frame this a little bit forms among the christology titles associated with Jesus of Nazareth. None are quite as enigmatic as son of man, son of

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David, for instance, is directly connected to being a royal descendant of the second monarch of Israel. The Hebrew Masia or the Greek Christos refers to the oiliness or the anointing or chosen status of a specific

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character. Here's one that we have to think about . When we consider this idea of the Messiah, the prophet Isaiah refers to Cyrus the great as Yahweh's Messiah as his Masia. We were looking at this

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of Children, we would say his priests. So Cyrus, the Persian king is also understood as Yahweh's Messiah. Additionally, Messiah or Christ are recognizable terms used in modern vocabulary, whereas Son of Man is

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not. So we're talking about some of these titles that people have some reference for Son of God, which carries its own interpretive challenges, still remains at least somewhat discernible, at least in popular theology.

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So most people have some sense of what Son of God means, especially when it relates to Jesus of Nazareth, Son of Man. However, tends to be an elusive character and the least accessible or understood

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our central passage for this discussion. Mark 21 through 12. You are welcome to take out that passage . If you have access to a Bible mark 21 through 12. This passage illustrates the importance of the

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historical and literary development of this character, the Son of Man for interpretation. Here, we want to trace the development of this important figure and consider how his features align with Jesus of Nazareth in Marx's Gospel

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, as well as other Jewish and Christian literary conceptions . So those are some ideas that we want to think about as we, as we frame our discussion . So I won't read the entire passage. Mark

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21 through 12. But I do want to hone in on this section that you see on the screen . We've got a nice little image there uh of Jesus and the paralytic uh the narrative uh that's here

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. Why do you raise such questions in your heart ? Which is easier to say to the paralytic of the Greek Politicos. Your sins are forgiven or to say, stand up and take your mat and walk

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. The highlighted parts are the ones that I want us to, to look at closely here as we consider this issue of the son of man verse 10 . But so that you may know that the son

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of man hoos to anthro will return to this idea . So we're looking at the Greek here so that you may know that the son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins. He said to the

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paralytic, I say to you stand up, take your mat and go home now, right away. We should have a few questions when we're thinking about tracing this concept, this idea of the son of

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man. One in this passage, Jesus could have said, but so that you may know at the Messiah has authority on her or he could have said the Son of David or the Son of God.

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But he actually says the son of man, which should raise the question, what is going on with this particular figure? The other ones that I mentioned all have their own designations and connotations, son of

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man. However, is one that we have to dive into a little bit closer. So keep in mind, we have two things mentioned that uh this son of man, that Jesus is referring to himself

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as can heal and has the authority to forgive sins . But where does this concept come from? So when we're thinking about the development of this, of this idea, these are the three things that we

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want to consider. What's the identity of the, so man, what are the expectations and what is the nature of this figure? These are the things that we should be thinking about as we go along

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. All of these are needed for reading and interpretation to make sense of this passage and other mentioning of the Son of man. These are the ideas that we should consider. OK, before we get to

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any of that consideration. However, we have to do a little bit of historical framing and that historical framing begins in the Hebrew Bible with this notion of the Kingdom of God. Now, uh wherever you

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teach, wherever you preach, however, you are discussing the Bible to talk about things in the New Testament, we need this kind of framework. Otherwise the son of man makes no sense. Messiah doesn't

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make any sense. Uh Son of David doesn't make any sense without going back first and setting the context . So going back to the Hebrew Bible, the historical framework is this uh that Israel has a covenant

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relationship with yah. OK. And these covenants set the expectations and the theology without these covenants. Again , it's hard to discern what exactly is happening. Why does Jesus show up or a son of man

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show up? So, here's the situation. We have these three major covenants, the abrahamic mosaic and the vic, hey, the abrahamic covenant. This is our main, that's setting up where we're going

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. The Abrahamic covenant in Genesis promises that the people of Israel, the Hebrews, if you will, will have land offspring and blessings, they will be blessed and the people who blessed them will be blessed

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. This is the main one. I put the map over to the right there just for us to visualize this is the idea. Now we've got other other issues with, they took the land from other

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people and that sort of thing. But let's just stay with the narrative for a moment that this was the promised land, the mosaic covenant. This was the one with Moses, this is your Torah,

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the instructions or the law. We see this detailed in, in places like Exodus, the mosaic covenant just to keep it together, keep it real straightforward . This is essentially their constitution, how they're to

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live with each other and how they are to relate to the God. So these are their rules, this is their constitution, their law for living in their land, right? The Davinic covenant, the

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third one this one is essentially an addendum to the Abrahamic covenant. So again, you have your land , you have your constitution and eventually there is a request for a human king and this one promises that

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they will have an eternal ruler and kingdom. OK . So they're moving from a theocracy where the God of Israel is, if you will their king, then they have a human king which makes it a

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monarchy a single rule. And where you have Saul David Solomon, eventually this gets divided up. But what you are seeing is in effect, the Kingdom of God note that this is a physical kingdom on

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the earth and land law and a king. The worldview is that you would have prosperity during this life . So all of your blessings are received during this lifetime. When you, when you die, when

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you transition, when you go on, you simply go to she the idea of an afterlife that develops later. But at least at this point, which we would call ancient Israelite religion. This is the

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Kingdom of God. And these are the, this is the essential framework of expectations. Now we get a new predicament. OK? What you're seeing on the screen, the highlighted things are what you should

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uh hone in on here. The new predicament based on the promises which was land uh living by the Torah and having an eternal kingdom. All of this becomes uh a point of catastrophic uh catastrophic events.

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If you will occur that upsets all of these promises , they are defeated and exiled. We see the defeat with Assyria and Babylon 722 and 586 BCE. When this occurs, the promises with those three covenants

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are up and they are displaced and they can no longer live out the Torah properly. And more importantly , they are being ruled by gentiles and they can and they are not receiving the promises. This,

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these are the major issues that they're facing under this new predicament. Once uh they are defeated by the Assyrians and the battle. Um during this time, a hope for Deliverance begins to shape a hope for

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the God of Israel for Yahweh to restore the kingdom to its former glory. This is where eventually, not just yet, but eventually we start to get this expectation of a Messianic figure and anointed one in

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some way but not, not quite the last bullet point. Um We see this development of something called the day of the Lord, the day when Yahweh will intervene and restore the earth or in some cases

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restore the kingdom to its former glory. When it's restoring the earth. It's kind of back to this uh kind of a scene like we see in Eden , in the Garden of Eden and Genesis. OK

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. So the New Predicament upends the promises and now there's a development for hope for restoration here is where we, this is kind of the, the main piece for understanding the son of man. The connection

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with the son of man comes in this idea, the concept of the day of the Lord or the day of Yahweh. Ok. That hope for restoration , get rid of the gentiles, be able to

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live out the Torah again and receive the promises. This idea is centered in the day of the Lord where the expectation is that Yahweh will intervene in human history at some point in the future, he will

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punish the wicked. That is the gentiles punishes those who break Torah. There's some sort of judgment or retribution uh for good and for bad key point is Yahweh is the judge, the one who does all

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of this. We see either a restored earth or restored kingdom that is a monarchy. And uh this again would still be a physical kingdom. At this point. Later on, we start to see ideas

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of a cosmic kingdom, things in the heavens, that sort of thing. But for the most part , a restored earthly kingdom, perhaps some sort of resurrection. It's often associated with the end of the

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age. OK. The Escoto. And we see this association with the end of the age with passages like Malachi 45 through six where there is this promise that Elijah will return just before the great and terrible

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day of the Lord Yo Adena this day of the Lord. So this is the concept that's usually missing for the son of it. Mhm here are some examples of the day of the Lord, how they're

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thinking about this um in prophetic books. Ok. Yo, Adam is your, I don't know if you all can see my cursor here. Ah Thank you. Yo, Adam for a day is near

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the day of the Lord. Yo, Alena is near, it will be a day of clouds, a time of doom for the nations. Another one , the sun shall be turned to darkness and the

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moon to blood before the great and terrible day of the Lord comes the third one for the day of the Lord. Yo Ma Na is near against all the nations. As you have done, it shall

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be done to you. Your deeds shall return on your own head. So we're seeing part of this expectation once they've been displaced and this hope develops. This is part of the idea the day of the

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Lord where things will be restored and set right again . But notice all of this is happening with Yahweh alone. There's no other figure. Just young Yahweh is, in fact the judge, the righteous judge

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at that. Uh Psalm 7-Eleven God is a righteous judge and a God who has in indignation every day . Uh Psalm 97 through eight, but the Lord abides forever. He has established his throne for Nish

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Pat for judgment and he will judge Ye Pote the world in righteousness. He will execute judgment. Yadin for the people's with iniquity. I show this because it's important to note uh that Yahweh is the judge

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associated with the end of the eighth. We'll see why that's important in just a moment. OK. That's, those are the initial ideas day of the Lord Yahweh is judged. Then eventually we get um

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a development in ideas where we have this figure called the son of man. I have this slide up first because we don't start with what we're going to see in a moment. We usually see son of

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man or we see it uh initially uh referring to human beings. And so uses of the son of man, the Hebrew would be Ben Adam. Uh we'll come to this again but uh bin is just

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so and Adam is used for Adam in Genesis. But remember Adam can also mean like ground or earth but can also mean just man or mankind or the so be Adam son of Adam or son of man

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can be used for humans like kings here. Uh in Psalm 84, what is man that thou uh takes thought of him and the son of man? The be Adam that you care for him. It

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can also be used towards prophets. We see this with Ezekiel. Then he said to me, son of man, be Adam, I'm sending you out to the sons of Israel, et cetera. OK

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. So one use of son of man is simply for human beings. Now we get to the further development and we start one of our earliest, yeah , I would say our earliest uh use of son

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of man outside of a regular human figure would be in Daniel 79 through 14. This is where we begin our development of the son of man and how these things will eventually align with Jesus and natural.

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So Daniel 79 through 14, we see some of these features, the ancient of days, a courtroom setting, books and scrolls being opened. And then we have this very interesting wording here uh in Aramaic

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uh one like a son of man and we'll put this passage up in just a second. So Kar and Nash, there are Aramaic. Kar Nash um as or like a son bar an No an No

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, I'm sorry. Uh son of man, the Septuagint uh gives us the same type of nuance host wheels on throu like or as a son of man . Daniel is important because this is our starting point

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for the literary and theological development of this figure. Here's our pants and here's where we begin our tracing . So all of everything else with the set up to connect day of the Lord and Yahweh, et

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cetera, so that we can make sense of the South as I watched Thrones were set in place. So pay attention to what we have in red Thrones were set in place and an ancient one took his

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throne, his clothing was white as snow and the hair hair on his head was like pure wool. His throne was fiery flames and its wheels were burning fire. The court sat in judgment. So take

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note of the things that we're observing, what sorts of things that we're seeing. This is what I was pointing out here. So the setting in the passage, the court sat in judgment and the books

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or the scrolls were open. As I watched in the night vision visions, I saw one, some translations will say like a human being. We're trying to be a little bit more literal here. The

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America has a bar and nash one like a son of man coming with the clouds of heaven. And he came to the angel and was presented before him , to him, was given Dominion and glory and

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kingship that all people, nations and languages should serve . His Dominion is an everlasting Dominion that shall not pass away and his kingship is one that shall never be destroyed. OK? Here are the observations from

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this. So we have one like a son of man, Karash comes with the clouds of heaven resented before the ancient of days. That is Yahweh. We see that he has some sort of eternal kingship

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. Glory and Dominion are given to him. It's not entirely clear if he's heavenly divine or angelic, but he seems to be something more than just a regular human being. Remember, he's like a son

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of man. OK. That's our starting point in dangle So all of a sudden we have this figure , this bar and nosh that is now with Yahweh in a judgment setting. And if you look at

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that whole context of, of Daniel, we see this is a judgment setting. Books are opened, eventually they start talking about resurrected ones coming up out of the dust, et cetera. So we know

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it's something happening in the heavens. Now, that idea begins to get developed more and more in what we call second Temple literature, uh like uh collections that scholars call the pseudo paper. We can talk

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about more of this in the discussion. But writings like First Enoch, the Testament of Solomon and for Ezra are the ones that I want to show you just to get a sense of how uh these sorts

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of things are presented or in how they develop. If we were doing a Bible study, here's how we would do it. We'd look at something like the Parables of Enoch, which is from the first

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century BCE. This is a nice copy of that . And uh Greek over to the right. And what we would do is we would do, we would read each of these and start detailing what do

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we see about this son of Man figure. So in the parables of Enoch, the things that I have highlighted in yellow are the things that are in common with what we see in death. Then we

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would start looking at the things that are a little bit different. Now, brace yourself. I'm giving you a chart. OK. The chart is now just giving you a quick summary uh of the things

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that I've broken out parsed out for each of these texts for Daniel sixth century BCE first Enoch Testament of Abraham. And for four E, what we would do if we're doing this study together is we would

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look at each of these columns, designation, arrival location ruler. Are they enthroned? Is it a judgment scene? And then what's the nature of the figure for Daniel for designation? For instance, in

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Daniel, he's one like a son of man, a Barash. And first enoch, he's identified as son of man and as enoch, the figure who's translated and God walks with the Lord and then is

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translated in Genesis. So we get the designation here , Testament of Abraham. He's referred to as the son of Adam the beam, which we mentioned earlier , but he's actually Abel. Abel is the figure

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that is the son of man. Yeah. And then in, for Ezra, this figure is just named as a figure of a man. And what we would do is go across and look at all

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of the differences and the development of this figure. And what are their similarities? Are they pre existent ? Um Are they enthroned? Um are they presented as a ruler? Uh how do they come?

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So we look at the differences and the similarities here from that chart here are some of the things that we see when we, when we kind of look at everything together. So some general expectations of the

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son of man. Uh This figure is presented before the ancient of days that is Yahweh. This figure is maybe heavenly or angelic seems to be pre-existing, usually comes on the clouds, defeats uh their enemies

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is enthroned in the heavens, judges humanity and weighs deeds in the balances. That's where you have these books being opened in this sort of judgment scene. We see this even in things like the Egyptian book

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of the Dead where we have a judgment scene. The balance is here. This is the Egyptian God Osiris and uh the royal scribe I me being brought by Anubis before tho uh tho uh and being judged

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uh down here to the left, we have the Greek judgment uh judgment saying with the three judges minos uh radiant thus and Ayako, they are the ones who judge these. So just to, just to

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note that the, this idea of judgment is across different cultures. OK? Where, where I'm about to bring, bring this home. I'm looking at my time here. 1232. All right. So

00:29:49.070 - 00:30:03.180

son of man's similarities, what we'll do here is look at some similarities and differences with the son of man, how these things connect to Jesus of Nazareth . So here are some similarities coming on the clouds

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. We see this in Daniel 713, right? So we read this one already. We also see in four Ezra and behold, look, the wind caused uh low, the the wind caused to come

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up out of the heart of the seas as it were the form of a man and be held and I beheld and lo this man flew with the clouds of heaven. Then the sign of the son of

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man will appear in heaven and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn and they will see the son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with great power and glory. So we can see in

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Daniel for Ezra and in Matthew, this commonality of this figure coming on the clouds. You also see another commonality, another similarity seated on a throne as judge in first enoch and the Lord of spirits place

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the elect one that is the son of man on the throne of glory. And he shall judge all the works of the holy above in heaven and in the balance, shall their deeds be weighed sort of

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like what we saw with the Greek and Egyptian saints , the Testament of Abraham. The commander in chief said, do you see all pious Abraham, the frightful man who is seated on the throne. This

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is the son of Adam, the first formed who is called Abel, whom came the wick came the wicked kill. And he sits here to judge the entire creation examining both righteous and sinners And then in

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Matthew and John, we have these parallels here in Matthew. The son of man comes in his glory and he will sit on his throne of glory and separate the sheep from the goats in job just as

00:31:56.090 - 00:32:12.590

the father has life in himself. So he has granted the son also to have life in himself and he has given him authority to execute judgment because he is the son of man. Another similarity is this

00:32:12.600 - 00:32:27.630

son of man being a heavenly figure. Uh We saw this in Daniel presented before the ancient of days in Enoch. He's like one of the holy ones also preexisted with the head of Dave. And then

00:32:27.640 - 00:32:45.140

in John, no one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from it. Those are some similarities we could go into more. But let's note some differences. How is Jesus different from the presentation

00:32:45.150 - 00:33:00.580

of these other figures? And Daniel, the son of man or one like a son of man lives forever? His Dominion is everlasting doesn't pass away, uh won't be destroyed. This is different from the

00:33:00.590 - 00:33:12.360

way that the son of man is presented in, let's say the gospel of John where there's even a question. Uh Jesus is explaining how this, how he has to die. And the question is,

00:33:12.370 - 00:33:22.770

we've heard from the law that the Messiah remains forever . We'll get to this in a second. How do we have Messiah and son of man? How can you say that the the son of man must

00:33:22.780 - 00:33:37.170

be lifted up. Who is this son of man ? So there's a question about the son of man . Do Jesus of course, is identified as the son of man. We see this again in John

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Jesus heard that they had driven, that Jesus heard that they had driven him out. Uh And when he found him, he said, do you believe in the son of man? He answered? And

00:33:49.500 - 00:34:04.010

who is he sir? Tell me so that I may believe in him. Jesus said, you have seen him the one speaking with you. Is he another difference would be? And this is a key

00:34:04.020 - 00:34:22.470

one for us that the day of the Lord becomes the day of the Lord Jesus Christ. We see this in First Corinthians 18 and instead of Yahweh coming , it's now Jesus who is coming at the end

00:34:22.670 - 00:34:39.970

, we see this both in first Thessa Thessalonians and in revelation, there is a conflation of these titles , Son of David, son of man. Messiah Son of God. Whereas in second temple literature,

00:34:39.980 - 00:34:55.170

all of these figures are unique. They're all different , but in Jesus, they all come together. This is another major difference. When we have him understood as Messiah Son of man and Son of God

00:34:55.180 - 00:35:13.360

, we do not see that with the others in mark the things that I have highlighted for us are the things that are different from these other characters. The Son of man, forgive sins. Is Lord

00:35:13.370 - 00:35:30.690

of the Sabbath suffers and is resurrected. The other ones are similar to these other characters comes on the clouds with power inaugurates a new kingdom or rules in some sort of way and is enthroned. These are

00:35:30.700 - 00:35:44.670

the things that we see in Marx's Gospel. Now , here's a bonus before we move into our discussion . The bonus one is, we have a figure who is not called the son of man, but

00:35:44.680 - 00:36:01.950

is associated with the end of the age and functions like the son of man. And this is a character called Melchizedek who we see in Genesis, Psalms and Hebrews. We have a very interesting writing in

00:36:01.960 - 00:36:17.240

the Dancy scrolls of the Kumaran scrolls called the Coming of Melchizedek 11 Q 13 from around the first or second century BCE. This figure is understood as being divine, comes at the end of the age or

00:36:17.250 - 00:36:34.990

give sense. There is a connection to Jesus of Naza, judges the world and Milan over to your right is a fragment of uh the coming of Melchizedek . And here's a portion of that. We have

00:36:35.000 - 00:36:52.410

Melchizedek who will return. He proclaims the jubilee, releases them from the dead of all their sins. OK? Uh He's part of this kingdom of judgment . He is understood as an Elohim, a godlike

00:36:52.420 - 00:37:07.660

figure takes his place in the council of God where he holds judgment. So this is a figure who is not called son of man, but uh functions like the son of man, someone who appears at

00:37:07.670 - 00:37:23.490

the end of the age uh and executes judgment. So back to our three observations, things that we wanted to pay attention to the identity of the son of man. We see three figures, Enoch Jesus

00:37:23.500 - 00:37:37.730

and Abel. And then we have a bonus figure Melchizedek who functions sort of like the expectations of the son of man. He comes on the clouds pretty much at the end of the age, uh executes

00:37:37.740 - 00:37:57.980

judgment is enthroned, forgives sins and suffers is something unique to Jesus and Melchizedek, the nature of the son of man is still a little bit murky where he could be heavenly or pre-existing. So what we're

00:37:57.990 - 00:38:09.190

looking at here are just some ways that we would trace that development of the concept. So when we're reading the New Testament, we have some of this background, Jesus doesn't just appear all of a sudden

00:38:09.200 - 00:38:22.710

in the New Testament. Uh And he's not the only image of son of man. So when we're reading and interpreting, we have these other texts that show some of that development. Uh These are just

00:38:22.720 - 00:38:35.800

some questions that um would be interesting for discussion, but I definitely want to uh get some of you all's ideas. Um These are just some texts I can put this back up on screen later on or

00:38:35.810 - 00:38:46.400

you can come back and look at the recording. I'm plugging some of my colleagues who have written on the son of man and then some other sources that would be great for your uh study on this topic

00:38:46.760 - 00:38:59.080

. I'm gonna, I'm going to stop right here because I want to give uh more time for our discussion. But thank you all. Thank you, Doctor Carruthers. Appreciate that man. Just really,

00:38:59.090 - 00:39:07.700

really, really, really helpful. I greatly appreciate it. I remember, um, um, I do my hosting responsibility. So as you've been listening , you have an amazing opportunity. If you want

00:39:07.710 - 00:39:15.930

to be able to respond, I wanna invite you to be able to get those questions ready and drop those in the chat. Uh We're gonna ask if you do want to ask a question, audibly,

00:39:15.940 - 00:39:24.520

if you want to verbally ask your question, I wanna ask you both to unmute and then also to turn your camera on as we are recording and we wanna make sure that we've got the visuals for that

00:39:24.700 - 00:39:32.440

. Uh It doesn't look as pristine when we have uh folks that are asking questions, but their cameras are not on. It just doesn't show up as best. And so we want to make sure that

00:39:32.450 - 00:39:42.210

we record that in its totality uh for folks that are getting ready and I see your mom already has a question in the chat. I love when family shows up. Uh I think as we're getting ready

00:39:42.220 - 00:39:52.790

with that, uh My question is, um so this, this title of this nomenclature, the son of man that Jesus is uh is referenced as, remember when I first saw it um and really kind

00:39:52.800 - 00:40:00.400

of, it caught my attention was when I was just kind of doing a deep dive in the book of Ezekiel a couple of years ago. And then I love the Mas way in which you talked about

00:40:00.490 - 00:40:13.720

. There's canonical representation of that in the text and then also outside the text as well too, in terms of books of Ezra, et cetera. Um My question is around uh those uh original hero,

00:40:14.110 - 00:40:22.050

right? You look in acts 17 and Paul is going around Atkins and says you've got uh statues for all the gods, but you've got something about this unknown God. Let me tell you about him.

00:40:22.200 - 00:40:32.260

Uh all kind of notice in the scriptures as you've mentioned as well too, with Matthew and Luke, they've got Jewish audiences. They're gonna give a genealogy for Mark and John, they're talking to Gentiles,

00:40:32.500 - 00:40:43.350

Abraham Isaac and Jacob mean nothing, right? So they're not even gonna do those, the son of Man, that title. What are those original hero ? What was that a signal to them? Was

00:40:43.360 - 00:40:53.140

that someone that this title is unfamiliar? But historically , it's meant something we should pay attention when he references himself as the son of man. Did it make uh those early disciples stop and pay attention because

00:40:53.150 - 00:41:04.580

they knew both in Jewish culture and in canon that if someone uses this and they aren't struck down, this is someone that we need to pay attention to talk to us for a second about the culture in

00:41:04.590 - 00:41:15.570

that time and what it meant for them to be able to hear the son of man. Uh And to hear Jesus reference himself himself as that excellent uh beautiful question. Yeah. So what I was doing

00:41:15.580 - 00:41:34.020

with the presentation was showing that um background. So as as, as when we see that used in the New Testament, the background that we see in first Enoch in the Testament of Abraham in Fort Ezra

00:41:34.030 - 00:41:45.980

, even though those are, are later texts, they're still representing the development of the idea that we saw even in dead. So when they're hearing something like son of man, we should be, we

00:41:45.990 - 00:42:01.260

should be, they should be, they were probably thinking about this character who shows up at the end of the age that's associated with executing judgment, which we see Jesus bringing that up the passages that I

00:42:01.270 - 00:42:13.400

referenced there. Jesus is saying, hey, this is the son of man who's coming on the cloud . So at least some idea we would imagine that the readers of these texts, especially things like the

00:42:13.410 - 00:42:28.350

, the gospels um that when they're seeing Son of Man, they're saying, oh yeah, this is an idea that at least was circulating to some extent . Um starting with what we saw in that associated

00:42:28.360 - 00:42:44.990

with the end time with executing judgment and something with maybe a restoration of the kingdom. But again, it's challenging because they also develop an idea of Messiah , which is what I mentioned. They eventually conflate

00:42:45.440 - 00:42:54.430

those ideas, son of man and Messiah together. Hm That is fascinating, man. I appreciate you sharing that too. It just um the historian in me is always like, what do they hear and

00:42:54.440 - 00:43:04.020

kind of what's going on? And it's, it's amazing to me to listen to you just how indicative of uh yeah, it may be new, but it's, it's never new, right? Like there

00:43:04.030 - 00:43:14.470

is this person that comes on whether they're authentic or whether they are not, right? But what they say and how they describe themselves, people either run to them or run from them and those that run

00:43:14.470 - 00:43:22.450

to them, run to them for either noble or ignoble purposes. So I love that as well too . And that notion of the son of man has all these connotations they're looking for Messiah and at some

00:43:22.470 - 00:43:37.630

point those get inflated and that's, that's where the real fun begins. Uh We've got a question from someone uh in the chat. Uh Doctor Carruthers asks Doctor Carruthers in what ways can the understanding of Jesus

00:43:37.640 - 00:43:51.810

as the Son of Man speak to contemporary theological concerns ? How does this title offer insights into Jesus Relationship with humanity and his role in redemption? And I'll read them again for you in what ways can the

00:43:51.820 - 00:44:06.670

understanding of Jesus as the Son of Man speak to contemporary theological concerns. How does this title offer Insights into jesus' Relationship with Humanity and his role in redemption ? Excellent questions. Yeah. Very, very good

00:44:06.680 - 00:44:19.890

question. Um The uh the first part, how does it speak to contemporary theological concerns? Um I would say uh again, this was a very brief overview just to kind of wet someone's whistle to what's

00:44:19.900 - 00:44:30.360

out there or what to consider. Um So theologically , we would say, OK, when we read Son of Man, let's just say in the gospel of Mark and some of the gospel, we would

00:44:30.370 - 00:44:47.040

at least be aware that, ok, this concept , this wording has a historical and literary background to it. So understanding, aha looks like this is a figure associated with the end of the age restoration

00:44:47.050 - 00:45:00.310

judgment, et cetera, et cetera. You would want to at least consider that theological framework and how it developed to say, ok, if I'm reading about Jesus of Nazareth in The New Testament, how

00:45:00.320 - 00:45:10.140

should I understand his ministry and the expectations that were held at that time? It's different. If you want to say, I, you know, I don't care about what they thought back then. I

00:45:10.150 - 00:45:20.550

only want to think about what I think today. That's fine. But if you're looking to understand things from a historical context, you would at least consider that. Now, the other one, how does

00:45:20.560 - 00:45:35.580

this title offer insight into his Relationship with Humanity and his role in redemption? Um If one is going to take the understanding that we see in the gospels and again, that development of the concept, then

00:45:35.590 - 00:45:47.250

we have to say, OK, uh what exactly was the hope? So that's why I started off with that framework, some sort of restoration, either of the world or some sort of physical kingdom that

00:45:47.260 - 00:46:05.840

again develops different Jewish sects, different Christian sects will develop that idea, whether it's something cosmic or something physical. So some sort of hope for a better existence, better future. Um And some writing of

00:46:05.850 - 00:46:21.500

the wrong uh and judgment that comes with that these are the ideas of course, of people living today may not uh agree with some of those things that's fine, but at least be aware of the concepts

00:46:21.510 - 00:46:31.920

that were circulating uh at that stage in stages before . I don't, I don't know if, if that answers everything or if you want to follow up . Yeah, that, that's absolutely excellent. I

00:46:31.930 - 00:46:39.730

love that response as well too. Again, we've got a little bit of time to folks have questions uh in the chat uh trying to turn these into my own personal Bible studies because uh all of our

00:46:39.740 - 00:46:52.650

professors are speaking and I always have questions about these concepts. Um I loved your response um to uh Doctor Brother's question. Um Your mom, Reverend, Doctor Doctor Corot. This show. I'm not confusing

00:46:52.660 - 00:47:05.660

folks who are uh listening to the recording later on . I think my question kind of piggybacking off of her Um So this, this concept, this notion of um the son of man, I think I

00:47:07.330 - 00:47:16.710

, I'm curious, like in, in, it's both happening in a temporary society today, but I feel like it's also happening in the Texas world too . There's an old adage that um everybody wants to

00:47:16.720 - 00:47:30.500

preach Jesus, but we don't often preach what Jesus preached. And I'm wondering in the text as well too, as you talk about um the implications both Old and New Testaments historical context. What we see

00:47:30.510 - 00:47:38.960

in Ezra, what we see in Daniel, what we see in Ezekiel, what we see in Mark's Gospel, um Like you said, like when someone hears the son of man that should conjure up a

00:47:38.970 - 00:47:51.990

historical or a contextual um a theological, all of them and esca allow all the academic and pastoral categories . It should conjure up a number of things. But then again, to your concluding point as well

00:47:52.000 - 00:48:00.200

too, they conflated the Son of Man in the Messiah. Why do you think that the son of man, if it has such power, powerful imagery as you're arguing? Which we believe that it did

00:48:00.420 - 00:48:13.510

? Why is it that this powerful imagery of what the son of man represents? Why does that get reduced to a Christian national identity? Why does it get reduced to all of the son of man is

00:48:13.520 - 00:48:22.610

coming? He's going to kill the Romans and restore our empire. And then that way we'll just continue to do what we were doing before, which is disobey God in every other chapter. Why does that

00:48:22.620 - 00:48:34.470

? Um And I guess I'm trying to figure out the question, why does it get reduced? And that holy fear disappears. It comes back to power , you know, but it never comes back to

00:48:34.480 - 00:48:43.980

discipleship, never comes back to transformation. You were very gracious at the end. You said folks might not even agree with this today. And that's kind of the point like what, what's going on?

00:48:44.080 - 00:48:52.020

Why is why are we seeing this shit happening both in scripture and in society to where we want Jesus , we want the Lord to vanquish our enemies. We really don't want him to deal with kind of

00:48:52.030 - 00:49:01.350

the issues that is going on in our own hearts and lives and families. So good pastoral question. Just a softball. Oh No, I mean, you, you actually were dealing with one. I

00:49:01.360 - 00:49:15.600

think the, when I zipped past my end to end discussion questions there. So eventually the son of man, um wording falls out of favor, it sort of goes away even in antiquity. They keep

00:49:15.610 - 00:49:29.560

Son of God, they keep um Son of David and they keep Messiah Christ, they like those. But son of man kind of goes away and part of it going away is and I think we can

00:49:29.570 - 00:49:45.160

, we'll probably understand this piece. Well, once you come into power, you're good. But once you become the dominating um the, the empire, the Christian empire and things who wants a new kingdom

00:49:45.170 - 00:49:53.680

. You got it. Now, it's your kingdom . Now you're running the show. You don't need it. You don't need Jesus to come back too quickly and execute judgment and, and all of this

00:49:53.690 - 00:50:06.060

. No, it's better to keep things the, you know, they're not gonna say that, but the idea is we're empowering. So the notion, the initial idea was, you know, if you're

00:50:06.070 - 00:50:17.280

martyred and, you know, you better keep everything together because he'll be back next week. That was the initial idea. But once it took longer and longer and eventually, um Christianity, you know,

00:50:17.290 - 00:50:32.280

fourth century or so becomes the Christian Empire and Constantine and everything that idea dies out to a certain degree , at least gnostics do something different with son of man. But eventually, you know, uh the

00:50:32.290 - 00:50:47.040

whole notion of a figure coming executing judgment, the theology is still there, but the emphasis is not the same as in prior times. So the that idea just kind of goes away to a certain extent

00:50:47.800 - 00:50:59.490

. My goodness, that's really, really, really helpful. It's, it's fascinating to hear the historical context and how theology at one point is kind of leading the conversation, the dialogue. And then once

00:50:59.500 - 00:51:10.330

folks get access to power, the gospel, more or less accomplishes its purpose and that it, it arrives at social and societal transformation for the benefit and flourishing of all. But then those who once were

00:51:10.340 - 00:51:21.750

powerless and then become powerful. Then it's, is Deuteronomy it Old Testament. Once you take the promised land, do not forget the Lord, your God . And we always, always, always do.

00:51:22.000 - 00:51:34.000

That's fascinating that Messiah and Son of God stay in uh our lexicon both theologically and in the West as well too. Son of man disappears for its implications . My goodness, that's a great place for us

00:51:34.010 - 00:51:45.390

to be able to pause. If you've got more questions about that. Doctor Pet's email address is on our website. You can also email. I'm kidding . You got questions about that, please, by

00:51:45.400 - 00:51:53.610

all means email us at lifelong learning um or learn for life, whether at Austin Seminary dot E D U, we always want to take questions for those things. It helps to shape our topics and discussions

00:51:53.610 - 00:52:04.860

as well too, hopefully. Uh And I believe it's true. This is sparked uh some questions inside of you as well too and that's what theological education is about. There are a number of free resources

00:52:04.880 - 00:52:15.810

that are available a blue at our Bible dot org is a great one. You can also check out the library here at Austin Presbyterian Theological Seminary or any theological seminaries or online resources. If you're curious about

00:52:15.820 - 00:52:27.730

more of this broader discussion about the son of man , its implications both culturally and historically, I'm very curious about it. And so I want to continue learning, Doctor Carruthers. Thank you immensely for leading

00:52:27.740 - 00:52:39.220

us in this discussion today. And I wanna invite everyone to join us next week is Doctor David Jensen , our professor in the Clarence N and Betty B . Frierson, Distinguished Chair of Reformed Theology discusses the

00:52:39.220 - 00:52:52.360

elements of Christian faith, flesh and blood. Uh does Christian symbolism and language about blood perpetuate or subvert the patterns of blood and violence in our wider culture ? Tune in for an exploration of an element of

00:52:52.370 - 00:53:01.010

Christian faith that is central but often avoid it because it seems too bloody. So again, we're going to have a fantastic discussion next week as well. Look forward to you all joining us, Doctor Carruthers

00:53:01.020 - 00:53:06.970

. Thank you again and take care everyone. Hope you have a fantastic day. Thank you all.