00:00:16.200 - 00:00:27.330

Um Well, today we have uh this is the last of our uh clergy well-being conversations. It's so nice to see so many familiar faces on the call . And um I know I've invited many of our

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students to, to join this conversation and really emphasized the importance of this conversation. We're just thrilled today to have with us. Uh Doctor Greg Ellison, uh the Reverend Doctor Gregory C Ellison, the second

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joined the Chandler Faculty back in tw um 2009. His teaching draws primarily from his work with the organization he founded called Fearless Dialogues. Maybe you've heard of it before. He also has a book by that

00:00:55.180 - 00:01:14.010

name. It's a nonprofit organization that creates unique um spaces for unlikely partners to have heartfelt conversations, hard heartfelt conversations on taboo topics like racism, classism and community violence. His research focuses on caring with marginalized

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populations, pastoral care as social activism and 20 21st century mys mysticism. He's the author of Cut Dead but Still Alive, Caring For African American young Men . Um Fearless Dialogues, a new Movement for Justice

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and is the editor of a book that we're gonna be discussing today. Can you see the book Good . OK, called Anchored in the current Discovering Howard Thurman, as educator, activist guide and prophet.

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And um I count Greg Ellison as one of my mentors and um spiritual friends and soul fathers. And um he is uh one of the people who is um really a perfect blend of living out his commitments

00:02:06.320 - 00:02:23.730

to social justice, his passion for um thriving and wholeness in all of the people around him. His prophetic call to justice in all his relationships. Greg lives that out in addition to being a wonderful teacher

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and scholar, um Greg is uh Doctor Greg Ellison is the real deal. So we're so lucky to have him with us today talking about Howard Thurman. And so we're gonna get started. He's gonna present

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for a little while. I'll have a couple of questions and then we'll open it up for questions from the group as well. We probably will handle those kind of with a chat feature. Um So thank

00:02:46.280 - 00:03:00.020

you so much for being here and I'm looking forward to our conversation. Well, um Hello, friends . It's good to see you. I am uh so grateful for my dear friend and brother uh Doctor

00:03:00.030 - 00:03:09.280

Phil Hessel. I am in the Phil fan club . Uh And so whenever Phil ask me anything, I just say yes, I, I very rarely even question what it is. He needs me to

00:03:09.290 - 00:03:22.320

do. And so, um I, I don't know, I'm, I'm from an organization I started an organization called Fearless Dialogues and I'm a little adverse just to doing all of the talking. So,

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uh I'll be inviting you all into the conversation either through the chat or uh to, to kind of speak back uh and take yourself off of mute. So if you all are ready, I know it's

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, you know, some of us still got the Thanksgiving lull, right? If you're ready for some good conversation, could you type in the chat? I'm ready. Let's go. I'm ready. Just

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, just so I know that we're ready and that we're all here. Anybody got a few people? Oh, it's some folks that are ready. Ah , ok. We're in the house. Well,

00:03:54.470 - 00:04:12.410

friends. Um, since we are ready to go , um, I'm gonna share a few, uh , thoughts about, um, how Howard Thurman has been, um, uh, a, a prophet

00:04:12.420 - 00:04:28.870

, a guide, an educator and activist, uh , that continues to teach me and how that has , uh, continued to evolve since the publication of anchored in the current. Um, and so I

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, I want you all to hold, uh, these two words in, in your consciousness for, uh, about 15 minutes as we begin to, um, move through some of the work of,

00:04:43.920 - 00:04:57.350

of Howard Thurman. I'd like for you to think about these two words, working paper, working paper . What does it mean for us to work our working paper? And, uh, as Phil has

00:04:57.360 - 00:05:14.330

already stated, I, uh, the, the founder of an organization called Fearless dialogues. And that fearless dialogues, we create spaces for unlikely partners to have hard heartfelt conversations about taboo subjects. And so

00:05:14.340 - 00:05:26.810

we're not going to, you know, roll out a full conversation over these next, you know, few minutes, but we will invite you into some deep discovery. There was this old woman in South

00:05:26.820 - 00:05:39.740

Georgia Field that said to me many years ago, she said baby, the longest journey that you will take in life is the trip from your head to your heart. Friends. I invite you to embark

00:05:39.750 - 00:05:57.270

on that journey with me. So before I uh say much more about Howard Thurman and why he is worthy of our reflection. I want to, to invite you to experience Thurman with me. I want

00:05:57.280 - 00:06:12.630

to invite you to, to, to grapple with one of my favorite devotions of his. It's called the inward Sea. And so friends. I'm going to ask that just for a moment that you would

00:06:12.640 - 00:06:35.970

close your eyes and that you would envision this picture coming to form in your mind. This is uh AAA reflection that he uh articulates in his deep baritone voice, called the inward sea. Visualize it with

00:06:35.980 - 00:07:01.670

me. Thurman says in every person there is an N word C and in that sea, there is an island and on that island there is an altar and standing guard before that altar is an angel with

00:07:01.680 - 00:07:26.080

a flaming sword and nothing can get by your angel to be placed upon your altar, on your island in the middle of your inward sea, unless it has the fluid area of your consent. One more

00:07:26.090 - 00:07:46.340

time friends, Diman says in every person, there is an inward sea and in that sea, there is an island and on that island, there is an altar and standing guard before that altar is an

00:07:46.350 - 00:08:07.690

angel with the flaming sword and nothing can get by that angel to be placed upon your altar on your island in the middle of your inward sea unless it has the fluid area of your consent. OK.

00:08:07.700 - 00:08:20.950

Friends, I invite you to open your eyes and just share with me in the chat. What did you see what stood out to you as you were traversing the sea within just in the chat? What

00:08:20.960 - 00:08:43.690

what stood out? What phrases jumped out to you ? Please write it in the chat for me. I'm curious what, what is is moving around inside of you? Yeah, Beth Marie, you said

00:08:43.700 - 00:09:00.030

the fluid area of your consent. What, what about those words stood out to you? Uh Fluid was the word that really hit me and I was more curious about it because I felt there was a

00:09:00.040 - 00:09:13.450

center there. But then I heard the word fluid . Yeah. Yeah. Um Thank you so much s Mettler. You said angelic protection. Could you say more? Uh Just the idea that there was

00:09:13.460 - 00:09:26.120

an angel at the very core, right? We're protected in our very, our very deepest parts and , um, even from the things that are internal threats. Right. So that was really comforting.

00:09:26.500 - 00:09:41.200

Hm. Hm. Let's take, let's take one more. Thank you so much. Uh Britta, you, you said choppy waters? I'm curious why , why choppy waters? I, I, I

00:09:41.210 - 00:09:52.320

think that that's just how life is feeling like it's swirling at the moment. And so, uh when the image of a sea came up then, even though I was trying to get it calm before you

00:09:52.330 - 00:10:07.970

mentioned angel and everything, I have to admit the waters were raging and choppy. So, yeah. Yeah, there's, there's some uh there's some rip ties, right? There's some things that we have

00:10:07.980 - 00:10:20.460

to traverse. I, I, I have to say this last one. Devin Reynolds. Uh You say I have agency, such a important theme for Thurman. Why, why, why does that come

00:10:20.470 - 00:10:37.960

to mind? Um Yeah. Hi. I think that um for me, especially as a pastor in a small church setting that works in social justice. I often feel like things are happening to me versus

00:10:37.970 - 00:10:52.450

with me. And so I love that idea of nothing gets placed on that altar that I don't give permission to be there. Yeah. And it made me think that I need to have some real conversations

00:10:52.550 - 00:11:05.330

with that angel and about what I've been letting get by. That's right. That's right. I, I love the, the fact that we are engaged in this working metaphor, right? And what Thurman

00:11:05.340 - 00:11:24.010

is suggesting is that every person is born with a unique gift, every person. And if somehow we , we don't access or fully maximize that gift because you are the only you that will ever be born

00:11:24.880 - 00:11:41.830

, all of eternity will miss something. And that gift is sacred and it is placed upon an altar within the core of our being. And that, that altar and that gift is so cherished that the

00:11:41.840 - 00:11:56.650

divine has placed an angel. Or I would like to think a host of angels. They could be people who are ancestral or those who are living to stand guard over that unique gift until it could be

00:11:56.660 - 00:12:13.560

fully realized and maximized and that island is sacred ground . I, I, I have a, a favorite author. Um His name is Billy Chapa and Chaat says that my inner world is precious. So

00:12:13.570 - 00:12:26.310

if I invite you there, you must take off your shoes because you're standing on holy ground, right ? And so Thurman is, is, you know , really inviting us to think about what is it

00:12:26.320 - 00:12:41.070

that is most unique about us? And when are those times when we stand in it and feel like we are fully in the presence of God? But the thing that's challenging and as I think it was

00:12:41.080 - 00:12:54.040

uh M Medler who said this is that the water is choppy. Uh uh I'm sorry, it's Brita , the, the water is choppy and Uh I think one of the challenges that, that Thurman invites

00:12:54.050 - 00:13:11.080

us to reflect on is how many people never access the island. How many people never you know, reach that gift that is within them because they are so fearful of traversing the choppy waters of, of

00:13:11.090 - 00:13:28.440

facing their shadow of, of standing against the status quo, of being someone and, and living out a life, a vocation that may cut against the grain. And so he says that far too often

00:13:28.450 - 00:13:43.380

people just sit on the sandy shore of mediocrity and the status quo who was Thurman. Let's talk about it just for a few moments. Uh Howard Thurman . Uh Let's actually go here. Um Howard Thurman

00:13:43.390 - 00:13:58.320

was a very, very unique human being. He was born in 1899 in Daytona Beach Florida. You have to imagine Daytona Beach is in the deep South in 1899. Just steps outside of slavery. As

00:13:58.330 - 00:14:16.630

a matter of fact, his grandmother was a slave . And so uh w when, when Thurman was born, they recognize that this young man was a flat out genius. But in 1899 in Daytona Beach

00:14:16.640 - 00:14:30.740

Florida, there were few opportunities for young black Children to be educated. As a matter of fact, there was no high school for black kids in Daytona Beach Florida, but he excelled. He tested off

00:14:30.750 - 00:14:41.990

the charts so much so that the school superintendent tested him to say we didn't know that black kids could think like this. And so Thurman was from a single parent household because his father died early. His

00:14:43.000 - 00:14:54.690

mother didn't have a lot of resources. So he began to work so he could earn money to go to school outside of Daytona Beach, Florida. He actually earned enough money to to leave Daytona Beach Florida

00:14:54.700 - 00:15:11.060

and go to high school in Jacksonville. But it became uh that, that, that dream was seeded in him. But by, by a woman, by the name of Mary mcleod Bethune, she's pictured

00:15:11.070 - 00:15:24.750

in the left hand corner of this image. The lady on the right was his grandmother who was a slave. But Mary mcleod Bethune actually started a college for black women in Daytona Beach. And so while

00:15:24.870 - 00:15:41.100

there were few academic resources for students there who were in high school, there was a founder of a college who every fourth Sunday would come to his church and say there is possibility for you even though there

00:15:41.110 - 00:15:54.060

are not high school resources here. And so I'd like for us to think about as clergy and people of faith. What kind of impact that you might have in seeing hope in young people even when you

00:15:54.070 - 00:16:08.070

may not think you're doing much work. And so Thurman eventually went on to high school in um in , in Jacksonville. He was the valedictorian of his class there. Let's show this picture. And after

00:16:08.080 - 00:16:22.270

he went to uh Jacksonville, the high school in Jacksonville, he went to Morris Morehouse College in Atlanta . Right, Morehouse College, an African American male , predominantly black uh school. And he was the

00:16:22.280 - 00:16:41.670

valedictorian there. He read every book in the library . Feels so interesting that after he left Morehouse, he was invited to attend Crozer Theological Seminary. Right . And um Crozer uh in, in upstate New

00:16:41.680 - 00:17:00.160

York only admitted two black students per year. He was one of those too. Would you believe that he got valedictorian there too? And what was so interesting? Right? We we heard him mentioning leaving

00:17:00.170 - 00:17:14.760

the sandy shore and entering the choppy waters. He became known as one who spoke great with great authority about issues of race. And so while in uh in Rochester, New York, he would go and

00:17:14.770 - 00:17:29.230

preach sermons and give lectures on race and the race problem in America. But guess who were who attended those lectures, not only the local people in the community, but the K K K and so he

00:17:29.240 - 00:17:44.560

stood with his values, but he also recognized that there's something running beneath me that I must pay attention to. After he left Colgate, he would end up uh doing some studies at Oberlin and then finally

00:17:44.570 - 00:18:00.220

taking a teaching job at Howard, taking a teaching job at Morehouse, taking the teaching job at, at Spelman. He actually was the dean of the chapel at Howard and that's where he was invited to

00:18:00.230 - 00:18:21.910

um to go on a pilgrimage of friendship to India while in India, Howard Thurman talked to thousands of leaders, one of which was Mahatma Gandhi. Now , I I want you all just to think back

00:18:21.920 - 00:18:38.720

to where this young man's life started in 1899 the grandson of a slave in a city that had no high school. Now in the late thirties, he's sitting across from Gandhi and they're talking strategy around Nonviolence

00:18:38.850 - 00:18:52.780

. And so he brings some of the tactics of Nonviolence back to the United States and it becomes the seed bed of the civil rights movement. Would you believe that after leaving India, he would start AAA

00:18:52.790 - 00:19:14.140

church in San Francisco called the the fellowship Church. And this church was an open and affirming congregation that was interfaith and interracial in the 19 forties. That's crazy. And it was so fascinating this, this

00:19:14.150 - 00:19:33.200

paradigm that he was seeking to create of an inclusive , beloved community that Thurman was voted in 1952 as one of the 12 most influential relig religious leaders by life magazine in the United States, alongside people like

00:19:33.210 - 00:19:51.310

Sloan William Sloane coffin and Billy Graham. After he left his church in San Francisco, he went to Boston University. Just think about this fact. There's no high school in his hometown. He, he's

00:19:51.320 - 00:20:07.200

the valedictorian three times over, right? He is teaching at Morehouse and Spelman and, and the dean at at, at, at, at uh Howard . He sits with Gandhi. He starts this church

00:20:07.210 - 00:20:27.890

becomes one of the 12 most influential religious leaders and then he goes to Boston University where he becomes the mentor and the teacher for Martin Luther King. This is the story of a life where you have to

00:20:27.900 - 00:20:47.010

listen to what he calls the sound of the genuine that which is most unique to your life and vocation that is bubbling up with them. And so friends , I'm gonna invite one of, one of you

00:20:47.020 - 00:21:06.140

to read this piece for me, right? Because Thurman was um a seeker if you will. Um I'll, I'll tell the story. Phil I have about five minutes. Is that good? Yeah.

00:21:06.150 - 00:21:22.590

More like eight if you want. I'll take eight . So, uh when, when, when Thurman was in uh Rochester, New York, he was leaving one of those sermons one night where he was

00:21:22.600 - 00:21:40.880

preaching before the K K K and the community members and he was walking back to his dormitory down one of those cobblestone roads. You all know the cobblestone roads. And um as he's walking down this street

00:21:40.890 - 00:21:59.050

that's normally busy during the day. He hears rushing water, but he's like, we're not near any water. I, I don't, I don't understand why I feel like I'm hearing water beneath this cobblestone

00:21:59.060 - 00:22:17.390

street in the middle of the city. And so he goes back to school and the following day he's talking to one of his colleagues, maybe it was a professor. And he said I had this strange

00:22:17.400 - 00:22:37.620

feeling that I was walking down this Cobblestone street downtown and I heard water and the professor confirmed to him that there is actually an aquifer that runs beneath the surface of the ground. And the professor said something

00:22:37.630 - 00:22:56.280

that changed Thurman's life, he said, but far too often people do not hear the rushing water because there's too much traffic that is happening during the day . And this became a dominant metaphor for Thurman because

00:22:56.410 - 00:23:08.990

he, he thought about the fact that how much traffic, how much, how many echoes and rumblings of discontent, how many voices are vying for our attention? Such that is so much happening in our

00:23:10.000 - 00:23:26.630

heads that we don't hear the living water that is flowing beneath. And that is seeking to teach us about what our unique purpose is in life. Thurman um had the benefit of being a teacher to many

00:23:26.640 - 00:23:45.350

, but he was also the mentee to many. And one of those mentors is actually pictured right underneath Mary mcleod Bethune. His name is Mordecai Wyatt Johnson . Mordecai Wyatt Johnson. This is uh him right

00:23:45.360 - 00:24:02.450

here uh on the left hand side of the page right above Gandhi Mordecai Wyatt Johnson was uh a famed preacher and uh he ended up becoming the president of Howard University. And uh one day in, in

00:24:02.460 - 00:24:15.850

uh Thurman's youth, he heard Mordecai Wyatt Johnson speaking at a conference for the Y MC A and he reached out to him because he was distraught over the fact that he, he wanted to go to college

00:24:15.860 - 00:24:27.310

and he would be graduating from high school soon. But there was no one in his family who could offer him direction. He was seeking to figure out how I might connect with the rushing water that is

00:24:27.320 - 00:24:49.340

flowing beneath me that I feel, but I can't fully hear. And so he wrote this letter to Mordecai Wyatt Johnson, seeking to find answers, seeking to chart the inward sea. And um this is

00:24:49.350 - 00:25:10.150

the oldest surviving letter and the thousands of pages in Thurman's Corpus. I'll invite one person to read this letter from an 18 year old Howard Thurman. I just want you all to, to, to,

00:25:10.280 - 00:25:29.230

to wrestle with the fact that he's writing this at the age of 18. One person. My dear Reverend Johnson, listen, while I tell you my soul, I want to be a minister of the

00:25:29.240 - 00:25:42.680

gospel. I fill the needs of my people. I see their distressing condition and I have offered myself upon the altar as a living sacrifice in order that I can help the scan and flung down. I

00:25:42.690 - 00:25:56.640

am scheduled to finish high school as you know, the war is on and young men are being snatched daily. I am patriotic. I am willing to fight for democracy. But my friend Reverend Johnson,

00:25:56.650 - 00:26:12.450

my people need me. Please pray for me because almost on every hand, I am discouraged in my choice of the ministry. Sometimes I think nobody cares . But thank God Jesus does mothers do mother does

00:26:12.850 - 00:26:32.300

and I believe you do yours very sincerely. Thank you so much. Um M Denise, this is an 18 year old Phil. Now we we read a lot of papers, Phil and think of how

00:26:32.310 - 00:26:47.440

eloquent this is for an 18 year old to write this. But I also invite you to think about the level of commitment that he is calling himself to . I have offered myself upon the altar as a

00:26:47.450 - 00:27:03.380

living sacrifice. Even at the age of 18 before he articulates this inward sea. He is aware that there is an altar within him that he is willing to lay down his life for this gift to be

00:27:03.390 - 00:27:22.280

manifest and it's not for himself. He's willing to make this sacrifice because he recognizes that his people need him as, as, as leaders. One of the things that we may lose sight of is why

00:27:22.290 - 00:27:52.110

are we doing the work and for whom are we working? I um I'll close this way, my friends, I was invited a few years ago by the Lily Endowment to um begin thinking about how leaders

00:27:52.120 - 00:28:18.300

might continue to grow in the 21st century, particularly faith leaders. And they said Greg, unfortunately, far too many churches are trying to thrive using 20th century paradigms and we're well into the 21st century.

00:28:19.450 - 00:28:33.820

And so one of the things we would like for you to think about is how can we prepare leaders to begin thinking in a 22nd century? Mindset. And in order to do this, it's going to

00:28:33.830 - 00:28:56.140

be vital that these leaders reflect on a leadership development model that is built on a theological foundation and not a business one. And so they invited me to use the strategies from Thurman's life, the wisdom from

00:28:56.460 - 00:29:19.350

his corpus to begin to construct this leadership model. And I'll, I'll close with this. Thurman has uh three articles that I uncovered. Um two have just been recently published. Uh They're from 1954 uh

00:29:19.360 - 00:29:33.780

and they're called the working paper. Uh And there in uh uh Walter Fluker is publishing a series of sermons of, of Thurmons. And this last book on sermons, I'll get the title for you and

00:29:33.790 - 00:29:49.910

give it to Phil uh has these 22 of the three articles that he talks about the working paper according to Thurman, right? And we're going back to that, that comment around that the fact that we

00:29:49.920 - 00:30:11.890

have agency according to Thurman, every person has the potential to write their own working paper. But he says, if you do not construct your own working paper, which is uh comprised of your own sense

00:30:11.900 - 00:30:26.770

of values, your own objectives, your, your own vision, your own mission. If you do not write your own working paper, you will forever live your life, executing the working paper that someone

00:30:26.780 - 00:30:48.860

else gives to you, you'll be living out somebody else's vision. And so as leaders, what is our responsibility to traverse the inward sea to begin to articulate what are our most essential values? What are

00:30:48.870 - 00:31:03.360

the purposes that God has placed upon my life? What is the vision that is unique to me? And how does my vision and mission align with the vision and mission of the institutions of which I affiliate

00:31:03.360 - 00:31:18.990

? What does it mean to commit your life to your working paper? What does it mean to endeavor to what you are most true? Thurmond? Finally , gosh, I said finally three times. I

00:31:19.000 - 00:31:32.470

am a Baptist preacher. Uh I'm, I'm gonna ask Todd since, since he laughed at that, Todd, could you read this, this uh this last piece for us? And uh and then we'll

00:31:32.480 - 00:31:45.490

close. There is nothing more tragic in life than to see the trained mind, the mind that has mastered the discipline of a particular area of human knowledge . And at the center of the trained mind,

00:31:45.500 - 00:32:01.260

there is no fundamental commitment, no hard core of metaphysical purpose. The result is that the trained mind is for rent. Anyone who is able to pay enough money, can rent the trained mind and use

00:32:01.270 - 00:32:24.010

the fruits of the creative processes of that mind for the ends with which the mind itself has nothing in common. Yeah. What does it mean? Ok . For us to not let out to not rent

00:32:24.020 - 00:32:49.620

out, to not give out the unique gifts that God has place within us, but to do so with purpose. Thank you all I'll uh stop there . Thank you so much. Great uh Doctor Ellison

00:32:49.630 - 00:33:00.470

for that wonderful presentation. Um That was really rich . Um I had a couple questions but I don't think I want to belabor it. I think I'll just ask the one that's kind of closest to my

00:33:00.480 - 00:33:15.770

heart. So it really builds on what you were doing in those last few minutes. Um I just wonder like you've done all this work now and you've done the work with the Thurman leadership conversation groups and

00:33:15.780 - 00:33:30.420

just like, as you think about what pastors are going through nowadays, our big theme in this grant is ministers, mental health. Is there one like particular part of Thurman's legacy that is especially helpful for

00:33:30.430 - 00:33:45.810

, for pastors who are going through the choppy waters that Britta was talking about or uh who are facing the challenging um streams of, of today's life? Um Is there like, is there some concrete guidance

00:33:45.820 - 00:34:00.720

that Thurman gives? Um I heard some themes, but I just wonder if you'd give us any more um like practical specificities around what you feel like now that you've really been digging into Thurmond for a couple

00:34:00.730 - 00:34:13.110

of years, what you feel like the real rich um like material is for pastors who are going through so much these days. Um And I guess I'm looking for a blessing for pastors from Thurman too,

00:34:13.120 - 00:34:37.190

if I'm honest, you know, I think um as I interpret Thurman, um He is not one for easy answers. Instead, he invites us to wrestle with questions. There's one sermon that he preaches

00:34:37.030 - 00:34:55.920

and he asked 16 questions in a row, just question after question. Um And so as an encouragement for your journey on this quest, I'll offer you a few of the questions that I found to be

00:34:59.380 - 00:35:15.950

most pertinent um that we've, we've worked with nearly 2000 clergy around the country. Uh No, around the globe. Uh Now that I think about it um and, and lay leaders and we've invited them

00:35:15.960 - 00:35:34.550

to wrestle with some of these questions. So I'll offer a few. One of my favorite questions of Thurmons is who am I really? Who, who am I? Oh, there's Carolyn. Hey,

00:35:34.560 - 00:35:53.790

Doctor Carolyn, uh who, who am I really ? Right. Really is an intensifier. And so it's, it's not, who are you when you are talking to your beloved friends or on a social

00:35:53.800 - 00:36:13.750

media platform or on Zoom and your, your, your best clothing? But who are you at your core? He ask another question, whose are you really to whom do uh you stake your claim in

00:36:13.760 - 00:36:35.020

life? There's another question that is so apropos in the fall as the leaves are scattering and there is uh it, it looks like the world is becoming bare. Thurman asked, what is the growing edge

00:36:36.770 - 00:36:50.790

? What are those areas and elements of my life that I need to be stretched in? You know , I if you know, Doctor Phil, my , my, my grandmother was in her nineties and

00:36:50.800 - 00:37:00.450

I recall, uh, I would call her in the morning, she was 9495 and I say, hey, grandma, good morning. How you doing ? And she would say, well, baby,

00:37:00.460 - 00:37:19.070

I guess I didn't die last night. So I guess there's something else for me to do today. What is the growing edge within you? Another question that, um, he asked in that list of

00:37:19.080 - 00:37:37.360

16 questions is what do you love most in life ? What do you hate most in life? And to what are you true? What is your true North? What, what I, what I,

00:37:37.370 - 00:37:46.870

what is that, that, that, that compass that's pointing you in the direction. Uh There, there's another question that connects. I, I got all these questions, Phil, I'll just ask a

00:37:46.880 - 00:38:01.620

couple more. Um He, he uh he had , I, I guess my favorite of all the questions and you've heard this with Phil? I asked it at my father's funeral as I pre preached his

00:38:01.630 - 00:38:21.320

eulogy. What must must, is a moral imperative ? What must I do? Carolyn? Can't do it for me. The can't do it for me . My mom can't do it. What must I

00:38:21.330 - 00:38:45.400

do to die? A good death? And it seems like a morbid question. But Thurman actually says that life and death, uh the inspiration and respiration of life such that a good death is predicated on

00:38:45.410 - 00:39:04.630

living a good life. And so what must I do in this week? In this month, in this year? What are concrete things I must do ? Who must I forgive? Who must I love

00:39:04.640 - 00:39:28.710

on a little bit more? What must I write ? What must I share? Who must I hug or, or think those are the small steps that are so vital to die. A good death.

00:39:28.720 - 00:39:52.850

And then finally, where are you going? Um When Thurman was trying to make it to Jacksonville to uh go to high school, he had worked three jobs and saved up all his money over the summer

00:39:52.860 - 00:40:15.780

. So he could pay for his train ticket, but he did not have enough money to pay for his trunk with his belongings in it. And so he had gotten this far, this close to this

00:40:15.790 - 00:40:30.890

major step in his development and growth and he could not check his baggage. And so he sat down on the steps of this train station and began as he would say in his autobiography to cry his heart

00:40:30.900 - 00:40:46.420

out. And then there was this old black man as Thurman tells it in these overalls and he walks up to him and he said, boy, what the hell are you crying about? And Thurman tells

00:40:46.430 - 00:41:08.630

him about his dreams to go to school. And the old man pulls out his rawhide wallet, pays for his luggage and walks down that railway station. Thurman never got his name. He would never see

00:41:08.640 - 00:41:29.670

the man again. But that gentleman was so central to helping him to get where he was going. And what is so fascinating to me is I think about that man. I am reflective of the fact

00:41:29.680 - 00:41:49.620

that he is the angel with the flaming sword. Who are the people in your life who have come into your life? Um Unexpected. It helps you to get where you were going. Who are the

00:41:49.630 - 00:42:02.680

people who, who, who worked a double shift and who, who prayed a little harder and who made sure you got to school? Um Those are some of the questions that come to my view.

00:42:02.690 - 00:42:45.930

Um I get excited talking about this stuff. Beautiful . Thank you so much. Yeah. Um Such a beautiful, beautiful way of um thinking about a as as has been stated agency, but also our

00:42:45.940 - 00:43:13.590

own sense of, let me see how I can say this of differentiation of recognizing that my story is not your story and that um a fluid area of consent though. It though it, it sounds very

00:43:13.600 - 00:43:34.530

porous. It's a boundary. It's something that I can say this is uniquely me and I will not allow your projections on me to determine my life. Uh I have a very hard story is a parenting

00:43:34.540 - 00:43:53.320

story that I think uh can illustrate this a little bit better. Uh My son is uh an athlete and uh he was going to a basketball game last week and he said to me, uh I,

00:43:53.330 - 00:44:04.410

I said, well, son, how do you feel? You know, you're going into your, your second varsity basketball game, you know, how do you feel? And he was like, it's

00:44:04.420 - 00:44:15.050

just another game, dad. And so I started , you know, trying to unpack this, that , you know, feeling I have, you know , degrees in, in, in counseling. So

00:44:15.230 - 00:44:27.250

it's like just another game. This is an opportunity , son, it's, it's your opportunity to, to kind of prove yourself to make your mark on the court. And, and he said that don't

00:44:27.260 - 00:44:50.170

overanalyze it. It's just another game. And I think what he was saying to me is I'm, I will not allow you to project your fantasies. I will not allow you to protect your own aspirations

00:44:51.260 - 00:45:06.140

on to my life. And I, I, I hear that that in Thurman's call for us to write our own working paper for us to author and , and co-author, right? Because this, I

00:45:06.150 - 00:45:22.070

, I got this little cool thing I'm playing with , uh to, to co-author with those who are in our community, um, a vision that is unique to our lives, you know, uh I

00:45:22.760 - 00:45:44.820

, I very rarely wear ties. Phil knows this right. I, I usually have on a baseball cap and tennis shoes and when I first started in the academy, it was very odd because people were

00:45:44.830 - 00:45:59.910

like, I thought you were supposed to be a professor. You look more like a student and they don't know why I wear the baseball caps. There is a reason, right? Um But there was

00:45:59.920 - 00:46:22.540

this container that they sought to put me in that really stifled my identity and growth. Their container did not have the fluid area of my consent. But for a long time, I lived into their purpose

00:46:22.550 - 00:46:40.260

and into their plan until I decided it's time for me to write my working paper and to allow my gift on the altar to shine. And so that's how I understand the, the fluidity of consent.

00:46:40.270 - 00:47:01.180

It's, it's placing boundaries around that, which is most precious uh that, which is sacred within you and not allowing the forces outside to, to predetermine how you should execute that vision. Um That's between

00:47:01.190 - 00:47:23.090

you God and the community that you hold most dear that you allow onto that island. Beautiful Doctor Ellison . Thank you so much. Um So I, I think it's a, it's a beautiful question.

00:47:23.100 - 00:47:45.240

Thank you, Mr Pete. Um I'm not avoiding it, but Howard Thurman was resistant to being categorized as an activist in the form that many people thought about activists and civil rights in the civil rights movement

00:47:45.020 - 00:48:05.160

. Um There, there's a reverend, Doctor Otis Moss would often say uh that some of his colleagues in the movement thought that Howard Thurman would be the next great leader and they said we were looking for

00:48:05.170 - 00:48:24.750

a prophet and he was a mystic. And so it was very difficult to assess uh how he was actually seeking to contribute to change. But he had boundaries around his life and the projections that people would

00:48:24.760 - 00:48:39.600

have on him and his conception of actual activism was a lot different. He was not the one who would go and be the first on the picket line . But he wrote a book as, as um

00:48:39.630 - 00:48:54.150

as, as historians would tell us, that became the handbook for the movement. Luther King would carry two books with him wherever he traveled, he, he would carry the Holy Bible and Jesus and the

00:48:54.160 - 00:49:08.130

disinherited. And so his form of contribution to the movement may have not been on the front lines or on the front page. But like there, there's another instance. So when, when Martin Luther King

00:49:08.140 - 00:49:31.100

was stabbed by the woman in Chicago, he was recovering in the hospital and he called for Thurman to come to his bedside. And so Thurman actually asked another key question of Martin Luther King. He said

00:49:31.110 - 00:49:45.550

, Martin, there is a great temptation for you to jump back into this work, but you're already exhausted. There's more for you to do in this life. You need to, to begin to,

00:49:45.600 - 00:49:58.770

to, to, to, to, to, to place your ideas on paper in a way for it to live on. And so he asked King this question, Martin, where do you go from

00:49:58.780 - 00:50:17.610

here? Right. He asked them, he asked Martin Luther King that question in Chicago while he was recovering from the stab wound, that was the only time in the middle of the movement when Doctor King

00:50:19.300 - 00:50:36.830

would take a sabbatical, if you will to go finish a book that he was writing, you wanna know the title Where Do We Go From Here? And so part of Thurman's role in the civil rights

00:50:36.840 - 00:50:49.660

movement was not the kind of role that was most front and center, but he certainly was a guide . He certainly was a teacher, he was a , a mentor. He was, you know,

00:50:49.670 - 00:51:06.850

he brought back some of those strate strategies from Gandhi . And so he worked within the fluid area of his consent to create social change. He started a church in the forties, it in San Francisco that

00:51:06.860 - 00:51:21.570

was interracial as a way to serve as an experiment for what this uh the, the, the, the how, how, how love and justice might abound in America. And so I, I don't

00:51:21.580 - 00:51:37.140

think he was avoiding the, the role in the civil rights movement. I think he was uh operating within his own set of gifts and skill set to , to execute his working paper in a way that

00:51:37.150 - 00:51:50.580

aligned with what the gifts that God had given him . Beautifully put Doctor Ellison. Thank you so much for that. I think we have like maybe time for one more question from the chat and that's from

00:51:50.590 - 00:52:00.300

Randolph. Um It's probably a pretty nice question to end with. I guess Thurmond mentions people with their back against the wall a good bit in his writing . How can we help those people who are under

00:52:00.310 - 00:52:19.260

constant impression, live more fully into their genuine selves ? I'm not sure if, um, I, I'm searching through a Thurman reference but I'm not coming up with one immediately, but I have my own

00:52:19.270 - 00:52:43.440

answer. Um, Randall, uh, as Phil knows, I wrote my, um, first book about African American young men who feel unseen and unheard and how that sense of invisibility and being muted has

00:52:43.450 - 00:53:07.230

a way of thwarting our ability to build meaningful relationships uh to conceive of our own sense of self and identity and, and also to envision hopeful futures. So Randall, as I hear Thurman, um uh

00:53:07.240 - 00:53:23.680

channeling through me, one of the ways that I , I think we support those whose backs are against the wall is to help others to see them. Who are the people among us who are hidden in

00:53:23.690 - 00:53:47.730

plain sight. We help people to hear their stories . We turn our attention to them, who are those individuals who are screaming from the shadows, whispering in the dark. They may be the elderly among

00:53:47.740 - 00:54:05.250

us who um maybe in senior citizen centers but still have life and vitality and hopes and dreams and how might we partner with them? Um they, they , they, they might be those who are incarcerated

00:54:05.880 - 00:54:22.410

, right? They might even be pastors, uh who are hyper visible, right? Who are in constant under constant scrutiny, but hyper visible and invisible at the same time we see you by your title

00:54:22.420 - 00:54:39.140

, by your office and we rarely see your humanity . And so, um one of the things that I invite my students to do is to recognize that there may be people who we would not expect to

00:54:39.150 - 00:54:55.230

feel like their backs are against the wall. Do we have the capacity to love and care for them as well? Um Hopefully that was a sufficient answer for you random? Thank you so much, Doctor

00:54:55.240 - 00:55:17.940

Ellison. Um This has been sacred ground for me . Um I wanna just mention um Doctor Ellison in the Acknowledgments of his in his dissertation at Princeton uh took time to thank the janitors and groundskeepers at Princeton

00:55:17.950 - 00:55:32.990

who cared for the space of that campus. And it's such a beautiful illustration to me of what you were just saying, Greg around this theme of like bringing out of the silence, those people whose backs

00:55:34.000 - 00:55:50.870

are against the wall and thanking them for their contribution to everyday life. Um I uh I feel like that um intentionality is so much a part of your ministry, Doctor Ellison and everything that you do.

00:55:51.390 - 00:56:07.530

And um it's prophetic in a deep way that surrounds you and challenges you. So, um you've taken us on a journey today of beginning with our um the altar which is in our inward sea and that

00:56:07.540 - 00:56:25.720

, which is um that angel with the flaming sword that stands guard over that which is most sacred and vulnerable and precious in this time. And you've brought us to envision Thurman, um Thurman's call to ministry

00:56:25.730 - 00:56:42.190

his needs for care. Um And also the questions that he asks of us and asks us deeply over and over again today. So his sermons become a way of asking us where we are and we orient

00:56:42.200 - 00:56:54.160

ourselves around the message that he brought. Um I'm deeply grateful for your work with us today, Dr Ellison. for how, when I taught with you in the intro to pastoral care at Candler, uh

00:56:54.170 - 00:57:10.810

we started with how good it is to center down in that semester. Um That uh I'm just so deeply grateful for the work that you're doing on Thurman and vocation and um bringing the message of Howard Thurman's

00:57:10.820 - 00:57:24.830

life, the rich uh complex message of prophet and mystic um to the needs of the church today. Um and meeting them with both the mystic and the prophet answer so that neither side gets left behind.

00:57:25.170 - 00:57:39.290

Um Thank you so much uh for the many gifts of what you've brought us today. Doctor Ellison. Thank you so much, Phil and friends. Um I love, feel helpful. Uh I, I

00:57:39.300 - 00:57:54.280

also want to share with you all. I just put a link in the chat. Um There's one thing to read Thurman. There's another thing to hear Thurman and to experience Thurman in that way. And

00:57:54.290 - 00:58:08.030

so I put a link in the chat if you would like to hear some of his sermons that are archived online. Uh, that would be a, a free way to do so. Thank you,

00:58:08.040 - 00:58:15.250

Greg. This has been so beautiful. I just really appreciate, uh, your care for us and for this time together. Thank you. Thank you