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good afternoon, everyone. My name is Sean Watkins, and I serve as Associate Dean for Lifelong Learning here at Austin Seminary. And welcome to Cultivating Ideas, our webinar series where we feature our best and brightest of our faculty, where they share the content and curriculum that they are working on, items that are near and dear to their heart. and their education, experience, and expertise, and their particular fields of expertise.

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And today, we have a rare gift of my sister and my friend and coworker, the Reverend Dr. Sarah Allen. She became the Director of Ministerial Formation and Advanced Studies at Austin Seminary back in December of 21. And like me, she also became an Associate Dean in 2024.

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Previously, she was a pastor of Children and Youth and Families at First Presbyterian Church here in Austin, Texas. In that role, she was responsible for the faith formation and pastoral care of the congregation. Prior to joining the faculty, she served as a member of the adjunct faculty here at Austin Seminary for several years, teaching theological and practical foundations of Christian education, as well as serving as a section leader for the Introduction to Preaching. Recently, she wrote a youth mission camp curriculum published by the Office of Christian Formation,

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of the PCUSA and Presbyterian Camps and Conference Center Association. She serves on the advisory board for Progressive Youth Ministry and is a member of the Association of Partners in Christian Education, the Association of Theological Sealed Educators, and the Association of Clinical Pastoral Education. And we are super excited to have her with us today. She will be speaking to us on intentionally intergenerational worship.

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That being said, the Reverend Dr. Sarah Allen, by all means, take it away. Hi, y'all. I'm so glad to see you.

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It's really lovely to see familiar names and faces and then some that I'm getting to know this afternoon. Thanks, Sean, for that. I told Sean he could just say, this is my friend Sarah. And he was like, no, I'm supposed to say all these other things.

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So thank you for that lovely introduction. I appreciate it. Those of you who do know me at least a little bit know that my deepest passion is faith formation of all of God's people. And I believe that happens in all of our life together, but in particular ways in the rhythm of worship.

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And that because worship is so central to our life together as people of Christian faith, that it's imperative that we begin in Sunday morning worship with modeling behaviors, practices, and habits that inform the rest of our lives. So welcome to those who just joined. I'm going to share my screen.

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Ray, I'm going to put you on this task for a second. If my screen is showing you my notes instead of the full thing, would you tell me? It likes to do that at the very beginning of starting, and I haven't figured out why. So

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If it does that, you're going to tell me and then we'll move on from there. All right. Is that the correct one? Looks good.

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Excellent. Okay. So when Michaela sent out the information about this particular session, I sent in a handout of a mandala.

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It's a kind of a flower garden pattern. If you have it and you wish to color or work on that while you listen, then please feel free. I believe that, and I know that you all know this too, that many of us, of all ages, focus better when our hands are busy. And since we are looking at one another over a screen rather than being able to involve all of our senses, I wanted you to have something to occupy your fingers and your hands if that is helpful to you.

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So it will not bother me if you are coloring. I hope that if that's helpful to you that you do so. All right. So I'm Sarah.

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I do serve here as an associate dean and One of the great gifts of ministry is that you get to do crazy things like during exam week, dress up like a wise person so that you can lead seminary students in a Christmas pageant just because. So that's me and I actually think that might be Ray that's behind my head in that picture. A few of my favorite things are intentionally intergenerational faith formation.

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that takes seriously the God-given gifts of every person, regardless of their age or place on life stage. I love to read novels. That is both a form of escape and comfort for me. I absolutely love ice cream.

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So if you have an idea for a new flavor I haven't tried, put it in the chat. That might be the most important learning we do all day. I love Making plays about Jesus with children.

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I have loved that since I first identified a call to ministry and I continue to love it. It's part of the reason why my seminary students now get to experience Christmas pageants in the middle of exam week is because a part of who I am authentically is someone who wants to act out biblical story. And I adore my family. This picture is another family who I adore.

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members of the church that I got to serve at, First Presbyterian Church, leading in worship on a Sunday morning. All right. Here we go. It's important to begin with scripture whenever we are speaking about ourselves as people of faith.

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And central to my contention that intentionally intergenerational worship matters is What we find in the gospels, both in Luke as well as in others, Jesus called to the disciples saying, let the children come to me. Do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God. Y'all, if we actually believe that, if we believe that our Lord and Savior says that children are meant to be close to him, both

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in nearness physically, but also in priority, then that's going to impact every single piece of our life together as people of faith. It impacts our Sunday morning worship habits, but more importantly, it impacts the priorities that we carry Monday through Saturday and the ways that we live our lives together. Our corporate worship is a rehearsal of those practices that we then live out in our daily living. And so when we place children as priority in our worship in ways that are beneficial and are mutually beneficial to the congregation, we get to practice what we intend to do as we move out into the world.

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Another biblical foundation comes to us from the Old Testament, from the prophet Joel. This is a calling of all God's people to gather together to form an assembly, consecrate the congregation, assemble the aged, gather the children, even the infants at the breast. Let the bridegroom leave his room, the bride, her canopy. Everyone is apart.

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of the community of saints. There is a purpose, a meaning, and a place for each of us at the table. And then a passage that you all know well from 1 Corinthians, if one part suffers, every part with it. When one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.

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You are the body of Christ. Each of you is part of it. Okay, so central to who we are as people of faith is scripture.

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And from scripture comes our values. These values of intergenerational ministry were created through a group of scholars and practitioners in a movement that's called Intergenerate. These come up at conferences. They come up in practices of faith.

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I borrowed this language from the Intergenerate Conference website, but here are five foundational values of intergenerational ministry and intergenerational worship. Mutuality and reciprocity, which dovetail together, right? If you're thinking about the ways that our actions inform one another, we want to be sure that it's not simply people being in the same space together of different ages, but that there is reciprocity, that each is being able to inform, teach, and form the other. Accommodation, we're making room for one another.

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Okay, this is the part that makes adults uncomfortable when we talk about worship. Because for too long, we have practiced and acted like worship is an adult-centered thing that children are present in because we want them to learn about what to do when they are adults. All right, we have all of that messed up. Worship is a God-centered experience.

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And Worship is a place where every single person has an opportunity to experience the divine in the way that he, she, or they may. All of us come to the table with different wants, needs, burdens, and joys. And sometimes a moment in worship is not for me.

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Sometimes a moment in worship perhaps a prayer that I would have led differently, an opportunity to move liturgically or even dance in worship. Maybe that moment in worship has been created for my sibling in Christ, who is sitting next to me in the sanctuary. And we are

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are making room for each other by allowing for experimentation in worship, by allowing for purposeful liturgical movement, et cetera, et cetera. Inclusion, another value of intergenerational ministry. And I hope that I don't have to say too much about what we mean by inclusion, but that arms are fully open for the arms of Christ are fully open to all of us.

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And equity, not assuming equality, but just like accommodation, equity notices that people have different needs when they walk into a space, when they come into worship. And so how do we navigate those in a way that honors every person? So we have biblical foundations that remind us the centrality of worship, and all of us being welcomed in Christ's table.

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And we have values that center this work. Maybe you know Karen Marie Yust. She's now, she's a professor at Union Presbyterian Seminary. She is deeply passionate about faith formation for children and the ways that children form adults.

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And then, I don't think this is her most recent book. I think this is 2 books ago. But I love this quote. Children need the benefit of others' discoveries about divine love.

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Not only children, every single one of us needs that. And others' testimonies to the challenges of faithful living. They need to rub up. I can just imagine when I hear this sentence, they need to rub up against different ideas about God.

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I imagine a child sitting next to an older adult in worship and kind of kind of leaning up against their elbow, rubbing up against them, learning different ideas about the divine, and experiencing the affirmation of shared understanding. That grounds this intergenerational work as well, not only because it prioritizes children, but do you see how the reciprocity is at play? how the formation is happening between the generations and even just in that quote.

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Two people that have been foundational in my understanding of vocation across the lifespan are Kathleen Cahalan and Bonnie Miller McLemore. They have written books separately, but the book that they wrote together, I believe it was in 2018 or 2019 that the book came out, excuse me. It's called Calling All Years Good. Those of us on this call who are involved in Christian education and pastoral ministries have looked at James Fowler's Stages of Faith before and thought through the different stages that people are a part of as they move through the lifespan.

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They're building upon that work of Stages of Faith. They're also building upon Erik Erikson's psychosocial development of life stages. But what they're claiming is that every life stage has been given a particular vocation. Well, a vocation is a calling from God for that particular moment or that particular time in your life.

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And our vocations are discerned through our relationships with others. Our vocations evolve over time. They are multiple. They change.

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They're dependent on the capacities of our bodies. And they mutually influence and respond to the vocations of others. So if we think about the developmental needs and stages of life, and we begin with children, We begin by seeing, okay, so Erickson would tell us that infancy and toddlers, their need is for some, for care by an adult, right?

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Well, the vocational task of a child is wonder. The vocational task of a child is growing. That's their God-given calling on their life is to grow and learn.

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And my favorite one, to form adults. If A child's God-given task is to form you and me, who happen to no longer be children, how does knowing that's their vocation, that is what God has given them to do in this time, when they are learning and growing at such a rapid pace. Well, what can you imagine that does for worship?

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When are the moments opened in your Sunday morning worship where a child forms an adult? Perhaps you're pointing, and I hope you'll put it in the chat. I can't see the chat if you're writing there. But

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Maybe you're thinking of a children's moment, or you might call it the children's sermon in your sanctuary. But what about beyond that? Where are other openings inside of Sunday morning worship and practice where children have the opportunity to do what it is theirs to do by God? and form the adults around them with their wonder and curiosity.

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For so many of us, the only entrance point for that is that three to five minute children's sermon, right? Sometimes those are beautifully done and they take into consideration the fact that this is not a presentational moment, but an opportunity for children to form adults. But sometimes children's moments are nothing more than a glorified opportunity to showcase that the kids in our sanctuary are pretty cute and clever, which is a distortion of the intent of a children's sermon in my mind.

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If we take seriously the purpose of children by God to form adults, I think that impacts what we can creatively think of could happen in the sanctuary. I could go on and on about that, but if I do that, we won't get a chance to talk about what are ideas we could use. Okay, adolescence. So adolescence, Erickson talks about it.

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I see I see you, I see you seeing me. I see the you, I think you see. Like they're trying to form their own identity.

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They're trying to find out where they belong. But their God-given task, their vocation is passion. Think about the teenagers you know. They are passionate about particular people, movements, music.

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candy, like they just get fired up about particular things. And we have a God who gave them that passion and calls them in that particular moment to share that passion and that sense of possibility with the people around them. So if we truly believe that teenagers, that their vocational task, their God-given gift to us is passion, well, how are we connecting their passions to the passion of Jesus Christ? How are we modeling for them in worship?

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How are we allowing them to model for us that the Christian story is 1 to stake your life on, right? They are ready to eagerly participate in a place where they know they belong and can make a difference. And yet too often, our Christian witness is not compelling enough for them to see the place for their own passion to meet with the passion found in the Christian story. There's a wonderful book that Kenda Creasy Dean wrote.

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It's an older one called Practicing Passion with Youth. If you have not read it, I commend it to you. In that she really, really unpacks the God-given task and the God-given vocation of passion and how that informs our Sunday morning worship and our life together. if we keep moving through those life stages, and I'm using broad strokes here, I hope that you can find the uniqueness of people inside of these broad strokes.

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But when you think about young adults, they're beginning their life outside of their family of origin. Oftentimes, this is the time when they're exploring life on their own for the first time. They're sorting through those narratives, the ones that they have learned in the communities in which they have grown up, the ones that they're learning from culture, and they're discerning what they're going to stake their lives on.

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So if we know that, where are the moments in our worship, where are the moments in our community gathering where they can learn from exemplars? where they can rub up against different ideas about God, where they can sort through narratives in a place where they know they will find people of integrity. Middle adults, that's where I find myself. Maybe you find yourself here too.

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Our vocational task is generativity. Thinking about what will come next. Thinking about how what we are creating in our lives, how does that impact the generations that will come? Whether that is through parenting ourselves or whether that is through the care and stewardship of the community.

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Late adulthood, a vocational task for later adulthood to mentor. to love, to share stories with younger generations. Well, what a beautiful opening for worship, which is a place where our storytelling is at its best as Christians. So how are we opening up spaces for folks in that late adulthood to share stories of God's love and faithfulness with them

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so that those who are in the sanctuary of different generations might be blessed by them. Maybe you're already doing that. I hope you'll tell us if you are. Older adulthood, blessing others and slowing down.

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Those are the, Cahalan and Macklemore would say, that's what God has has for older adults as vocation. That is a gift to the community. So where are the openings in worship?

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Where we celebrate rest, quiet, where we allow older adults in our communities to offer verbal or tangible blessing? How are they able to bless the community inside of worship? As you're thinking about your own worship services and how you might consider opening them to not be

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We use the terms cross-generational and intergenerational. I'm going to use those differently. Cross-generational simply means generations are sitting together in one space, okay? So they are present together.

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Often our sanctuaries are a cross-generational space. Not always, but often. Intergenerational moves beyond we're all together in this space, to how are we forming each other inside of this space?

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What are the gifts that we each get to bring to this community? I have found these four particular themes to be helpful as I'm unpacking intergenerational worship. I'm a person from a reformed tradition. I'm A lifelong Presbyterian and I believe in the fourfold movement of worship and the

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that scripture and God's word, the hearing and proclaiming of it, is at its center. So what are the ways that worship is centering God's word? Where is structured and purposeful invitation for movement? If there's, if it's nothing beyond standing for the hymn, how could you

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How could you change that a little bit? What could you add that allows for purposeful, purposeful, liturgically meaningful movement? What is tradition inside of your worship service? What are things that we feel like in this particular community of faith must happen, that make us who we are?

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And where are places for novelty? What is something that we could add without sacrificing the places where we find our identity in worship? And then, perhaps the most important, auditing the diversity of leadership and creation of liturgy in when thinking about age and life stage, when thinking about race, culture, and gender identity, how are they purposefully involved in not just reading one word in worship or sharing the scripture, but how are they involved at times in creating the liturgy that takes place on Sunday morning?

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All right. If I don't get to practical, y'all are going to be like, wait, we came to this and she just told us about theory and I didn't come for that. So practical ideas. All right, let's go.

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Here we go. I'm skipping ahead, y'all. Sorry. So, okay, we're thinking about

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ways that we could, these upcoming Sundays, use what we know about vocation, so the God-given gifts and callings on each life stage in our Sunday morning worship. What are ways that we can take from where we are today Some of you are beautifully celebrating intergenerational diversity and gifts in your worship services. And some of you are here today because you want to.

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So we know that children are people who form adults, they are full of wonder and curiosity, and they're learning and growing at rapid pace, and that is God's call on their life, then wonder and curiosity need to be welcomed and not shushed. So think about moments inside of worship where you could add an I wonder question that a child could turn and share with a neighbor, or that the community could simply hear and wonder about throughout the course of worship and come to you later with that.

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Doesn't have to be a huge moment in worship, but where are places where you're honoring that children are wondering all throughout worship? Sometimes they're wondering deep, incredibly theological thoughts, and sometimes they're wondering why Is that one light in the sanctuary brighter than the other ones? Our acknowledgement of both of those wonderings is essential to their growth and faith because they are learning who they are in this community and whether their questions and curiosities matter to us.

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Now, there are ways that we do this really, really well. And I recognize that this could also give some of us a little bit of anxiety. If I open up an I wonder question in worship, what if I can't answer it? An I wonder question is not asking you for an answer.

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I wonder what your favorite part of this biblical story is. There's no wrong answer to that question. I wonder how you felt when we passed the peace today. It doesn't have to be something that is responded to verbally, but it can be.

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Teenagers. They're the ones that are going to keep us from being lukewarm Christians, right? Or having God, what does God say in Revelation? I spit them out of my mouth.

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They are going to keep us from being lukewarm with their passion. So let them touch, taste, see, feel, hear the passionate love that Christ has for them and for the world. Can you make your prayers a little bit more multi-sensory? Can you pair your offering that goes to the cold night shelter on the first Sunday of the month where you bring socks and gloves?

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Can that, how does that happen in worship instead of just out in our sects or the fellowship hall? In A purposeful way where you're connecting explicitly that this is who we are. This is who God calls us to be.

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For young adults, they're sifting through the narratives that will inform their lives from then on. So one of the things that they need is exemplars. They need mentors. So in worship, can you have a moment every once in a while where there's pair sharing?

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Again, they want to see that we actually are who we say we are. So living with integrity inside of our worship services in ways that match what we do outside of the sanctuary really matters. So how are we communicating our inclusion? How are we communicating our commitment to all of God's people inside of worship?

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Middle adults. Is there opportunity to. in journal for a moment. Reflect on what has made life meaningful this week.

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Reflecting on the choices that one is struggling with in midlife, the changes, the transitions that come up. Many middle adults are beginning a new career. They may be transitioning from parenting season into empty nest season with parenting young adults?

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Late adulthood. This might be my favorite one to think about. When can we hear the stories of faith from older adults in our communities? How can we make that a pattern in our Sunday morning worship?

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And again, I ask that question, where's the quiet moment where we celebrate rest and honor Sabbath? How could we have, what would it look like if an older adult were the one to bless people at the end of worship, to share that with that leadership role with a child. I want us to have a chance to talk with one another.

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And so I have a prayer that I wrote. If you had come to my APSE workshop a long time ago, you may have heard this prayer. I've used it several times, but I invite you to use your whole body in this prayer. And I will give you a copy of this so that if this is helpful to you and your community, you can use it with them.

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So the way that I like to begin this is with my hands out. And then when you see the word head, mouth, and then you'll see arms and feet or whatever, just touch those places on your body. Let us pray. God of love, you created our bodies good.

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You created us to love and to serve you, to love others the way you love us. Too often, though, we fail to love you with our heart, soul, mind, and strength. So forgive us. Forgive us for the times when we thought cruel thoughts about others.

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For the times we used the gift of our creativity to imagine ways to bully or to mistreat people, rather than use that creativity in ways that inspire love. Forgive us for the times when we spoke without thinking, when we used our words as weapons of injustice and cruelty, when we spread gossip and lies. Forgive us for the times when we hardened our hearts against the needs of others, for the times we looked upon someone you love and failed to see them as beloved. Forgive us for the times when we used our hands to hurt others, to harm your creation.

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For the times when we closed ourselves off to others, clenching our fists, rather than opening our hands in response to your love. And I can't see your feet, but I'm going to stomp mine. Forgive us for the times that we walked away from someone in need, wrapped in our own concern, rather than accompanying them as you accompany us. Loving God, forgive us our sins.

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Make us one with you and with all of your beloved. Amen. There are some excellent ways that, excellent resources that I want to make sure you are aware of if you're not already. Teresa Cho is probably my Presbyterian idol.

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She's just amazing. And she has, it looks like there's an echo, but it's Teresa Cho. She has a website where she speaks about intergenerational worship and explores how she is doing that as a pastor in her congregation. I think you can probably, she's a public figure on Facebook too, but she has really creative ways to engage in intergenerational worship.

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Illustrated ministry curriculum. If you're not familiar with FLAME, creative children's ministry, I love their resources. I think they're from Australia.

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And then here are the books that I named as well. So those are some resources for you. I could talk about this all day, but Sean is back with those video on, which means I'm supposed to be quiet and we get to talk together. That is not what that means.

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Thank you, Sarah, immensely for a wonderful, wonderful, wonderful, helpful lecture. Truly and greatly appreciate that. Always love when you speak. It's thoughtful and profound and reflective.

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And yeah, you can tell it's not, it's not an intellectual exercise for you. can tell it's something you're very passionate about. It's something that you both live, I think, as someone that works with youth, but then also as a parent as well, too. So just thanks for that, like truly, truly, truly.

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If you've got questions for the Reverend Dr. Sarah Allen, now is the time. We want to engage in a little bit of a dialogue and discussion between now and the top of the hour. Remember what we said at the beginning.

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Feel free to drop those questions in the chat. If you want to be able to ask those questions verbally, you're more than welcome and invited to do so. I'm just going to ask that you both turn your cameras on so that we can see you and unmute so we can ask you questions. As we're doing that, I think to kind of kick us off, Sarah, my question is around, there's a book, the author's name escapes me, but I've been referencing it lately.

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It's called From the Garden to the City, and he talks about how in Genesis, creation in the world, people begin in a garden, but it concludes in a city and revelation. And the book is about how technology kind of works throughout our society. This technology that's around when we're born, it's just kind of universal and normative. So for me, I'm 42.

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So the microwave, the television, the refrigerator, the stove, those types of things are normal for me. Anything that's invented from the time we're born to the time that we're 30 is wonderful. It's innovative. It helps that comes out after we're 30 is of the devil.

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It's destroying society as we know it, and we must reject it at all costs. And so he both looks at technology and scripture from everything from slave labor to the tools that are used to, yeah, just the buildings and edifices that come about. So I think kind of with that as a template, yeah, all of us are youth at some point. And it seems like there's just kind of this chasm that happens in adulthood, regardless of whether you become a parent or not, to where there's this empathy and understanding

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of kids and a desire to, as you mentioned, give them agency, give them voice, understand them, create an environment so that their wonder can flourish. And then it seems like there's another subset of adults that want as possible and just kind of only give them adult things and things to think about. It kind of robs them a little bit agency and that wonder, if you will. What's your thoughts and perspectives on that?

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Why is it so, like I understand the necessity of us having youth curriculum and content, we can always get better in terms of contextualization, but why do you feel like there are so many gaps with so many pastors in terms of creating an audience and an environment for that wanted to flourish with kids? Is it because of their own formation and the pastors that they had over the years just kind of muted them and so that's what they expect? adults to do in terms of muting children? What are just kind of some of your thoughts and perspectives on that?

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And again, if you've got questions, this is just filler for y'all. So if you've got those questions, go ahead and drop them in the chat and then be prepared to ask Sarah as well. Sarah, we'd love to hear your thoughts on that. Yeah, I wrote down the title of that book, Sean, because I haven't read it yet, but I think it's both and.

00:42:04.480 - 00:42:41.360

I think that there has been a model in Christian worship in particular, that says, yes, children are welcome here as long as they act like adults. Well, so if we've been raised in that, then we don't know another way to open up worship for children, because we've been conditioned and formed to think this is for adults and you're just here. But if we can open our imaginations to say, actually, we believe Jesus.

00:42:42.480 - 00:43:07.200

We believe Jesus that children come first in the kingdom of God. And if that's true, then how do we open worship where children come first in the kingdom of God? And I don't mean that excludes, I think for a while, that opens up the anxiety of, well, then where do I fit as an adult?

00:43:07.920 - 00:43:30.560

Because I'm here to learn from this experience, but more importantly, to experience God's love and grace myself. And so if a child is here experiencing God through perhaps a little bit more noise than I'm accustomed to. How am I supposed to navigate that?

00:43:30.680 - 00:43:51.120

And that's a real tension. That's a live challenge. And there are, I mean, there are ways that we form children in knowing That's why I use the words liturgically appropriate or purposeful movement or purposeful structured movement.

00:43:51.440 - 00:44:13.120

I don't think that it's appropriate for a child to come into worship and just be like, unless it's, unless that's the moment. right? If that's the moment in worship where we are being with all of our enthusiasm and wonder and praise, great. But there's ways that we are forming them in the rhythms and habits.

00:44:14.000 - 00:44:31.560

And I think the gap comes that it seems scary to open ourselves up to what a child or a youth might lead us toward. Because often it's something we haven't tried yet. It's good. Yeah.

00:44:31.560 - 00:44:43.080

It's something we haven't tried yet. And I think it's something that we also have forgotten along the way too. Like I love that word wonder that you talked about. And it seems like kids just, they have a wonder for things.

00:44:43.080 - 00:44:59.560

Like they're just, there's an innocence, that fascination with things that I think the older we get as adults, it just becomes so mundane. And we've just lost our wonder in a lot of ways. And so to invite a kid who is dripped in wonder to kind of lead us or guide us.

00:44:59.560 - 00:45:05.200

That can be a challenge for folks. That's so helpful, Sarah. I really appreciate it. Isaiah tells us and a little child will lead them, right?

00:45:05.280 - 00:45:22.160

Yeah. Come on. On Herod says in the chat, for too long, we've decided worship is R-rated and not a safe place for children. I've had a theory for a while that the invention of the church nursery was one of the most harmful things we have done for the church.

00:45:22.160 - 00:45:46.880

On Herod, I, wow. That you really, that's really, yeah, Ray, I would say I've always thought about children's church that way. And the nursery can be done well and also can be that place where we're saying, we don't actually want to hear you. If you cry, you can't be in here.

00:45:46.880 - 00:45:55.000

Yeah, go ahead. I'll speak to that. So the first generation to go to the church nursery on mass were the boomers. Yeah.

00:45:55.720 - 00:46:10.960

And the first generation to walk away from the mainline church were the boomers. Then formed in it. Gen. X, or they were the first generation to have segregated church.

00:46:10.960 - 00:46:25.280

We have youth church, we have children's church, we have adult church. And then millennials were the generation of entertainment children's church. Yeah. And each one of those has walked away in larger numbers.

00:46:25.600 - 00:46:45.200

And we closed our church nursery here. We don't have a nursery during worship. We have rockers and cool people chairs and quiet toys and activities. And yeah, now.

00:46:46.160 - 00:46:55.840

On Easter and Christmas Eve, we have volunteers that staff the nursery because we have visitors who expect it. Yeah. And so that's a welcoming hospitality piece rather. Right, yes.

00:46:56.000 - 00:47:08.640

That's something different than what you're naming. But our regular people, they love it. They're the kid. We have a two-year-old who walks down every Sunday to come, like, say hi to me, like, at the point during worship.

00:47:09.760 - 00:47:27.680

Isn't that the best part of worship? My favorite parts of worship where you're like, you're speaking or leading at the table and then all of a sudden you're like, oh, hi, I'm so glad you're standing right next to me. This is terrific. Yeah, he comes down for communion because he wants crackers and he takes all the gluten-free crackers and then goes back.

00:47:28.560 - 00:47:45.240

He's great. And Herod, what you're naming, I know, took education for the people that you pastor. for them to see like, and you're naming, yes, this is also a part of our culture. So that's incredible.

00:47:45.240 - 00:47:57.080

Like I saw your eyes go, well, I mean, but what you're naming. COVID was really good impetus to close the grocery. Yeah. And so then you said, okay, it's been closed for this long.

00:47:57.080 - 00:48:16.400

And look, kids have been in worship. Our youngest have been here. And here's how we have accommodated. their presence, and also here's how we have been formed because they're here in our sanctuary, in their sanctuary, in our sanctuary.

00:48:19.280 - 00:48:32.720

Yeah. Rosanna, go ahead. I think the one thing we could be sensitive to is the life stage of our older adults who genuinely have a hard time hearing. Yes.

00:48:33.080 - 00:48:52.400

they may not have addressed that within themselves. They may say, and they don't have a hearing aid. Or if they do, it's kind of wonky and whatever their situation. And so for them, I hear a lot of feedback about, you know, we can't hear when little people are making noise.

00:48:52.640 - 00:49:07.760

So we are like amping up our whole sound system. Yeah. as part of our live stream, we were going to do the tech anyway, but now we're like, okay, let's get serious because within the space, we want everyone to be able to hear. Yeah.

00:49:08.000 - 00:49:23.360

And then also with that saying, we're glad that we are so glad that everybody's here. Right. So you're honoring both. You're honoring that there are times when children make noise and there are people who need the sound system to be so that they can hear even

00:49:23.840 - 00:49:39.240

if someone next to them is making noise. Yeah, we see the heart sound system here, Angela. We've also added banners that are actually baffles to reduce the echo in the sanctuary. I've heard of those in here.

00:49:39.240 - 00:49:57.560

And then we are, my younger sister's a theater person sound engineer, so she came in and went, your room's too live. But we were also lucky that our Narthex has these huge bifold windows. So the rocking chairs and little people chairs are in the Narthex.

00:49:57.560 - 00:50:20.240

So if they're having a noisy time, they can go back there and it doesn't disturb the sanctuary. Not everyone's not lucky, but in churches where I've not had that, I've made children to the front of the room. I know that sounds completely wrong, but their noise doesn't carry as much if they're at the front of the sanctuary. and the older folks are toward the back where the speakers are louder.

00:50:21.200 - 00:51:00.280

And I mean, one of the things I remember learning when I was discerning what my call might look like and recognizing that it was always going to include children and youth was that families ought to be sitting near the front of the sanctuary for their children to be able to fully engage in what's going on. So you're also naming that. Being in the front, it should not be about being cute or being presentational, but it is about where can they best experience what's taking place. Yeah.

00:51:00.280 - 00:51:08.920

I want to come to your church in here. That's awesome. Yeah. And Herod, one year, can your sister-in-law come by the seminary so we can theater soundproof everything?

00:51:08.920 - 00:51:22.640

I've got so many questions about that. So Sarah and I both changed. I think, and Herod, you brought up a really good point that I wanted to circle everybody has, Rosanna's as well too. You brought up a really good point though about the generations.

00:51:22.640 - 00:51:41.920

And my friends and I were having this conversation actually last week about how they've walked away from the church and how both the boomers of that generation has walked away. I love how you talked about the different changes and what churches have made to try to bring them back. I think there's also that law of compounding interest, right? The boomers left and they were the parents of the millennials.

00:51:42.480 - 00:51:57.440

And so while the churches tried to change to invite the millennials back and the Gen. Xers, et cetera, there's also a group of boomers that said the church wasn't a safe space for me. And so they taught their kids to not go back. So those millennials didn't return who then taught their children who were the

00:51:57.680 - 00:52:05.920

Gen. Xers or wherever we are, who then taught Gen. Alpha and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And it reminded me of the Super Bowl this past Sunday.

00:52:06.320 - 00:52:26.680

You know, hip hop and rap music is a very prominent music modality in the States right now. And once we started looking at the metadata, we realized majority of African American youth are not listening to hip hop. It's actually the majority of white suburban youth that are listening to it and Asian Americans, both in the States and back home as well, too. It's become this kind of international music modality.

00:52:26.680 - 00:52:42.400

But anyway, they showed this clip on social media where you had Kendrick Lamar at the Super Bowl halftime show, and they showed older white grandparents and great-grandparents that were watching it, and they were utterly confused. What is this? What is he talking about?

00:52:42.720 - 00:52:58.000

Why is the Super Bowl entertainment show? And not so much from a cultural lens, but I think it reflects what happens when we have such a broad generational divide, because we've got those gaps, because the church didn't contextualize to reach boomers and millennials and Gen. Z, Gen.

00:52:58.120 - 00:53:15.440

Xers, rather. And so now we've got this point where we've got multiple generations that have different needs, but the gaps are so wide. What does it mean for us to circle back and have some difficult conversations that says, we need these folks. We need to intergenerational inclusive worship, like Reverend Dr.

00:53:15.440 - 00:53:32.040

Sarah Allen was mentioning, but also to look and say, we've got some gaps because the church has failed multiple generations. We've got to go back and have a conversation. and talk about the ways in which the church failed, what we've learned across those generations, and what we can do now to make sure that we don't miss other generations. So just really, really, really help.

00:53:32.040 - 00:53:41.320

I love that illustration and perspective that you gave. So yeah, wanted to be able to comment on that. Other folks, before we wrap up, we've got a little bit of time left. We have the illustrious Reverend Dr.

00:53:41.320 - 00:53:50.800

Sarah Allen with us. Anybody else want to be able to comment before we close shop? All right, Kevin, go ahead. Hi there.

00:53:51.520 - 00:54:02.880

And so I'm an alum from, my gosh, like 2006. Awesome. Yeah. And so I really appreciate the lifelong learning and especially the opportunities to come in virtually.

00:54:02.880 - 00:54:16.720

So I appreciate that. I'm here up in Northeastern Connecticut. So distance. But the question I have is, I know a lot of the focus is on the different generational needs and levels and gaps.

00:54:17.360 - 00:54:49.800

But paradoxically, I guess what I've been finding, having traction within my congregation to talk about trying to do more experiential things is talking about the different ways that people learn despite their generation. And I guess if you could talk a little bit about that, because I found... the focus on each of the ages and stages to be a little bit overwhelming, but when we can talk more about the learning and how we can appeal to people who are, they're active learners, they're visual learners.

00:54:50.480 - 00:55:03.600

Yeah, right, exactly. That seems to be easier for the worship team and for some people who would otherwise oppose doing certain things. things. So maybe if you could just talk about that intersection.

00:55:03.840 - 00:55:27.920

Yeah, Kevin, that's helpful. Thank you for that feedback too. So I would say that the sacraments give us the place to land in multi-sensory worship, right? If we're thinking about the different ways that people learn, well, Jesus used tactile things to teach us about God's kingdom.

00:55:28.480 - 00:56:05.600

So Kinesthetic learners find themselves experiencing the divine when they touch the waters of baptism and they actually can dip their hands in the font. A kinesthetic learner, an active learner, finds themselves in the experience of God when they take the bread and dip it into the cup or pass the plate and experience and literally taste and see God's goodness. the auditory learners among us, when the hymns are sung, we can be moved.

00:56:05.600 - 00:56:30.400

I find myself in that space of being an auditory learner. We can be moved into sacred experience. And that, a visual learner, also, it's also those auditory moments for visual learners, but how we tend to forget the visual learner inside of worship and the kinesthetic learner.

00:56:30.800 - 00:56:56.080

So a visual learner, what are the artistic expressions of the divine? Like stained glass windows open up biblical story to us. So how do we engage those things, those items that are already in our spaces that provide beauty? How are we using those to be an entry point for

00:56:56.800 - 00:57:14.880

the divine. And Herod just named banners a moment ago. I think of those for visual learners too. Like if you have a banner that shows the Good Shepherd welcoming the whole community or whatever, well, for a visual learner, that brings more impact than whatever I might say in my sermon.

00:57:17.600 - 00:57:27.600

And we have, as Presbyterians, we just love our sermons, right? They're, I mean, they're central and they are. And They are only for the auditory learner.

00:57:28.560 - 00:58:18.400

So how do we also engage our hands and feet and hearts? And I think it can be as simple as offering people a moment to stand or to turn toward a neighbor. Like it doesn't have to be a It can be a big, expansive project in worship, but it can also be those small moments of where you're not simply looking at Pastor Kevin and listening, but engaging a neighbor or writing something down or taking a moment to, in the sermon, dip your hand in the font or put a piece of, you know, add your prayer to the prayer map or whatever it is.

00:58:18.960 - 00:58:28.480

I'm really glad you asked that, Kevin. Thank you. And also, we must have been in seminary at the same time because I graduated in 07. So yeah, nice to see you.

00:58:29.360 - 00:58:34.440

Wonderful. Thank you, Kevin. And that's a great place for us to be able to stop. I want to say thank you again to Reverend Dr.

00:58:34.440 - 00:58:46.080

Sarah Allen for a wonderful, wonderful, wonderful both lecture and interactive discussion. I think that's probably one of the most interactive discussions we've had at the conclusion of it. So I can tell you struck a chord and spoke dearly to everybody, including me.

00:58:46.080 - 00:58:55.720

So I always love want to learn something new from these. So thank you, thank you, thank you. Truly, it's always a gift and a privilege. I want to invite everybody to join us back on February 27th.

00:58:56.320 - 00:59:07.040

Reverend Patricia Bonilla, she is writing her dissertation as we speak. So she will be Reverend Dr. Patricia Bonilla very soon. She's talking about decolonizing pedagogies for

00:59:07.240 - 00:59:15.240

Cultural Faith Formation on February 27th. So looking forward to that. Until then, take care everyone and God bless. We'll see you next time.

00:59:15.240 - 00:59:17.760

God bless. It's so good to see you all. Bye. Bye.