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Good afternoon, everyone. My name is Shawn Watkins and welcome to cultivating ideas. This is an opportunity for the best of our best. Really all of our faculty and all of them are the best of

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the best. But it's an opportunity for our faculty to be able to share with us their wisdom and experience, strength and hope uh their scholarship, what's near and dear to their heart, what they're most

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passionate about uh the things that keep them up at night and get them up early in the morning, both from a place of pain, but then also from a place of promise. And so super excited

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to be able to hear from them. Uh We have the Reverend Doctor Jim Lord with us today and so super excited for her to be with us. Um She's a professor of Homiletics and liturgical uh studies

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and she's expounding today on making the most of the font part two, a baptismal spirituality uh as a follow up to our webinar in our last series uh in this webinar, we will look at the act

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of baptism, its rights and theologies in order to consider how the church is a community of the baptized and what a baptismal spirituality looks like in our storm tossed world. So super excited for this. And

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for part two, Doctor Lord, welcome back to cultivating ideas. Excited to have you and by all means, take it away. Thank you. Thank you so much. My audio. Good. Yes

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, ma'am. Can you hear me? All right . Thank you, Sean. Thank you, Michael . They're running things behind the scenes. Really grateful again for this cultivating ideas, series, a joy

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to be a part of this. And I'm looking at names on the screen. So greetings to folks that I know some of you I work alongside with here on campus, some of you as alums and

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some of you are new names for me. So wonderful, welcome. Uh Glad you're here and this is a baptismal focused uh hour. So let me begin with prayer. Let us pray merciful God.

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We need your ever flowing grace for you are deep and refreshing. Be our well of mercy. Provide our communities with the water they need and make us all a pitcher, a jug, a vessel with

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which to serve one another and your needy world. May it be so amen. So we have been encouraged to ground these, these conversations in scripture and I'm going to reiterate what I said in making the

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most of the font part one. And for me , this baptismal conversation, I think not of an explicit baptismal passage in scripture, but rather I think of the parable of the prodigal son. And when

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we get to uh Luke chapter 15, verse 17 , when a phrase in that verse says of the prodigal son and he came to himself. So we know that story, we know that's the pivotal change

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. All of the sudden he remembers who he is and he leaves the pigs and goes to return to his father. So I absolutely think of grounding any , any conversation about baptism. Uh in that sense

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of we come to ourselves in baptism. We are , we are washed in God's image. Uh We are washed as royal people. We are washed in our true identity as one's beloved of made in the

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image of God. And we return again and again to that. Um Some old language in the church says each day we creep back to our baptism and sometimes the best we can muster is just a creep

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because life is so difficult, but to creep back to our true identity who we are in God as one of God's members in God's household, one of God's royal beloved ones, a part of God's creation

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. So I think of that verse from the prodigal son as I ground this conversation. I think that some of you on this call participated last, I think it was February when I had making the most

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of the font part one. So, so I'm kind of splitting my time here between lightly touching on some setup that I did in that part one. But certainly getting to uh the comments that I want

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to make for, for this part two. And I'm glancing down because I'm going to set my own timer as I'm doing this. All right. So , uh so a few things to know about me

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. Of course, of course, Sean introduced me and my title includes both preaching and worship and the way I describe myself is that I am a liturgical theologian. So that means that I understand the worship

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of the church when we assemble and most of us are still doing that on a Sunday morning. But sometimes it's other times during the week. But when we assemble, when we congregate, when we convoke

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uh when we are the assemblies of God. Um That, that, that is where we can count on God's promise to meet us and be present to us. And that also we are changed in that

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time that, that God has promised to grow us in God's self. Uh I am Presbyterian church usa . So I'm going to talk in the language of sanctification. You know, how do I grow my

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whole life long in Christ United Methodist Methodist traditions will , will talk about growing in holiness or growing in perfection. Um We could think even of Eastern orthodox Christians and they, they will talk about divinization or

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Theos and how, how we grow in God. So as a liturgical theologian, I prioritize God's work in our lives in the Sunday Assembly and then of course, 24 7. Uh but primarily as we

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are God's own body, as we congregate as we convoke. So, um m maybe a more colorful way to talk about this part of my life or this, this vocation, my life vocation is to

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say when I was in junior high, I collected worship bulletins and the sermons as a junior high kid . So, you know, maybe you're laughing right now. But that really fits as I think about

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my vocation and, and my love of worship, my love of of liturgical celebrations of ritual in the church. So, so I think a lot about the theology of what we do. Um I really

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work a lot because I also come from a theater family. So the stage craft of what we do , what needs to be in place more or less behind the scenes. And I love working with students

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for leadership for presiding. So that's a little bit about me. Last time. In the part one , I hovered a bit over the term a baptismal spirituality because I wanted to make clear that when I

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think of spirituality, I am thinking about us flesh , you know, bodily people in God's created world , the here and now I am, I am not speaking of spirituality in any sense of it being

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anti material or disembodied or future pie in the sky . I'm talking about how we live in the spirit of the Risen Christ, how we live according to um the, the spirit who lives in us and

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works among us uh in all things. And that's the spirituality that I'm speaking of. I also want to clarify because I don't know all of your denominational traditions. I'm in a tradition that baptizes infants and

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Children and adults and I'm in a tradition where we certainly can do that by the person going all the way under the water submersion, immersion. We use different terms in our traditions and we certainly can go

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to oceans and lakes and creeks. But more often , my tradition has a, a um piece of furniture in the space of the church that holds water and we call that the baptismal font. So,

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um that's what I'm used to and I don't know how many other traditions are on this call or, or may look at this recording afterwards, but just acknowledging that's my tradition. And I'm also um aware

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that across the variety of traditions, uh even for those who might have a whole immersion tank in the sanctuary or for those traditions that always go to a creek or a lake or a river or the ocean

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. Um What I'm aware of is that sometimes when we think about our baptism, even if we can't remember it because we were baptized as infants. When we think about it, we think about it as

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a one time moment in, in our lifetime. A one time moment and my theology professor always used to, you used the word for that punk tier , which I is, if anybody plays Scrabble,

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that would be a great Scrabble word to look up and use. But punk Tiller meaning, you know , in, in the one moment in an instance , however, in practice and, and deep within

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Christian tradition and histories and worship practices, the understanding is that we actually are called to live a baptismal life as ones who have been baptized. But we also grow in our baptism, our whole lifelong.

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So yes, there is a moment that we can point to or somebody can tell us about um hopefully with baptismal records, but it's also a lifelong process . So here we are with lifelong learning, a

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lifelong process of our baptismal spirituality. So I, so I talked about that and, and um let me, let me pause here. And yes, this is the other thing that I, that I

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think that I want you to know as kind of pulling forward from the last time. You will also hear me in a way reference baptism as a symbol . And when I'm doing that, it's in a

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positive way and it's in a way that means that God um accommodates us as humans who, who need bread and wine or bread and grape juice and water and ordinary material things to know of God's goodness in

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my tradition to say of God's grace. Um So , so that baptism as a symbol is full of God and full of many meanings at the same time . Um So that's very important as a set up

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for today to say baptism holds many meanings and, and on a given day, we might need one of those meeting meanings more than another. All right , I think I've done enough set up. If

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not, I'll just go back and pull out a little bit more from last time. Here's, here's what I'm thinking about. Here's what's on my heart and, and cultivating ideas that this is me working

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out an idea that I'm writing about and that I , I'm wondering how it might practically take hold in congregations. All right. So let me, let me start by saying that when I use the title

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making the most of the font, I'm actually being a little tongue in cheek because that makes it sound like, you know, we humans are in control and, oh, here's this nice thing, I'm

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gonna pull off the shelf, uh the idea of baptism or, or the font and, and let's do that. And instead I think, I believe theologically liturgically theologically that it's, it's the flip of

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that. It's the reverse of that uh that, that these gifts of God, which, which we know Jesus own baptism and, and Jesus admonition that we go and baptize and what the baptized life means

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that actually you and I instead of grasping or using the font, the flip is true. We are grasped by all the beautiful meanings of the font uh of baptismal water. Let me, let me expand

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that image of, of baptism, of the baptized life of spirituality. We are the ones that are grasped by that. So my title of Making the Most of the font is a little bit of a

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kind of consumeristic play on that and to tip my hand, um I don't consider myself to be an expert with titles. And if we had gotten to this morning and I had a, a chance at

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a refresh, here's what I would say about today . Here's what I would say. Um Something about this for today's title that re rejecting our demons is a joy. That's where I'm going with today's conversation

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, the baptismal spirituality, one of the theological meanings is the renunciation of evil. And so I am thinking about rejecting our demons as a joy and part of the baptismal life. So to that end,

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now I'm going to read you a different scripture that reorients us a bit for that topic. This is from the gospel of Jesus Christ according to Mark chapter one verses nine through 15. In those days,

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Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan and coming up out of the water, immediately, Jesus saw the heavens opened and the spirit descending upon him like a dove and a

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voice came from heaven. You are my son. The beloved one with you. I am well pleased . The spirit immediately drove Jesus into the wilderness and Jesus was in the wilderness 40 days, tempted by

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Satan and was with the wild beasts and the angels ministered to him. Now, after John was arrested , Jesus came to Galilee preaching the gospel of God saying the time is fulfilled and the Dominion of God

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is at hand repent and believe in the gospel. So the second prayer I would offer and by the way, the both prayers that I'm praying during this time are from the liturgist Gail Ramshaw from her book

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called Words Around the Font. And here is her prayer on this focus for today. Make us so aware of your mercies. Oh, magnificent God that rejecting our demons is a joy, carry us on

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your wings greater than any dragons into and out of the arena and raise us up on the last day . May it be so amen? Ok. This might seem like a strange jump. Um I,

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I maybe I should have given you like a P G or R rated warning on this. I don't know. But here's what's going on for me. I am currently co teaching a course with our,

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our beloved faculty member, Doctor Cynthia Rigby. And as part of that course titled Preaching and Forgiveness. Not only did we start with materials about the holocaust , we shifted next to read the Kairos document from

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South Africa in 1985. Anti Apartheid. And we will move into the most recent publications of a Presbyterian publication, Presbyterian Church usa the Presbyterian outlook on reparations . We are doing a deep dive on forgiveness and

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how it is connected to reconciliation, to reparations, I think to renouncing Satan and rejecting our demons. So in the Kairos document, and you can easily find that online at the very end in the conclusion

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. And again, remember that uh Desmond Tutu, one of the authors of that document in the end section that's called transforming church activities. It says we must transform church activities like Sunday services, communion,

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baptism, Sunday schools, funeral, et cetera. They must be quote reshaped to be more fully consistent with a prophetic faith related to the Kairos that God is offering us today. So all those activities that

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we do week in week out as church that we do as church, they need to be reshaped to be more fully consistent with prophetic faith related to the Kairos that God is offering us today. Here's the

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sentence that jumped out at me. The evil forces we speak of in baptism must be named, read it again, the evil forces we speak of in baptism must be named. OK. What is that

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document? Talking about people writing that document. Um Some, some you know, to audience of, of Dutch reform church, but certainly Episcopalian Anglican Roman Catholic and I talked about this more in my part

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one. But let me touch on it here, we know as early as the third and the fourth century that the right of baptism for those who professed Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and wanted to align

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with Christ and join the church, the right of baptism, not only included three years of intense study . And for some people, it meant changing jobs because they weren't allowed to be a gladiator anymore uh

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among among other things. And the final 40 days was an intensification of their final preparations for baptism, which is where we get our 40 days of lent . And they were given to study ahead of time

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. Lord's prayer and other preparations. They were put through what's called scrutiny. These, these ones learning the faith, the catechumens, another scrabble word learning , the faith had a mentor and then they had

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to go before the bishop and undergo the scrutiny about the ethics of their life, about their moral orientation , about what it meant to align with Christ and with Christ care for all of the vulnerable and renounce

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the powers of evil. After that, they were presented for baptism. And then a part of the right that still appears in some of our books like the Presbyterian Book of Common Worship are questions about renouncing

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Satan, about renouncing the devil. So for instance , in my Presbyterian church Book of Common Worship, the questions to the one being baptized or if it's an infant or child, this this question goes to

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the parents of the guardians. Do you renounce all evil and powers in the world which defy God's righteousness and love the answer. I renounce them. Do you renounce the ways of sin that separate you from

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the love of God? I renounce them and then the turning. Do you turn to Jesus Christ and accept him as your Lord and Savior? I do in old practices of the church, the cat humans

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uh that were undergoing that right, literally turned and faced to the e to face to the west, to do the renunciations. And sometimes they stretched out their hands against Satan, against the devil, against

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evil. And in some rights that still exist today in the Eastern Orthodox church, they were asked to breathe and spit on the devil and then to turn and face east because Christ is the day spring from

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the east as scripture says, and so many churches architecturally are built so that uh we in the congregation facing the chancel area, we are facing east. It is, it is um the geographical direction um

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of the second coming of Christ. So these, these ones preparing in these last minutes for baptism turned to face the east and then they professed their faith in Jesus Christ, which classically by that fourth century

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was the apostles creed. So I am thinking about that Kairos document the evil forces we speak of in sin. And baptism must be named, OK, let me back up just a little bit more.

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It was 2014 and I was meeting with my uh Academic Academy, the Guild uh North American Academy of Liturgy. And we were having a pre meeting of those of us in the reform tradition and we were

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talking about the Flint water crisis. And I remember one person in the group saying we should create a litany, we should create special prayers. And I responded and I said, I don't know that we

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need to come to invent something to innovate something. Instead, let's take the renunciations from the baptismal, right? And expand upon those. Um And that's what I'm working on in this cultivating ideas, webinar

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and in my writing, I am very interested in a liturgist and I believe that in these long traditions of the church, we've got these beautiful containers. I mean, you know, think of them like

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a tupperware container if you will. But there are these ritual components and they can hold multiple meanings and they can hold not only old meanings but today's news and it's our work as theologians as worship leaders.

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And I, I mean, pastors and lay people um to, to take these rights, but to add in what does this mean for today. So we've got this language, you know, at least

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, at least I do in my tradition. And some of you might also and some of you just like go look at older stuff and see what you might want to retrieve. But we've got this,

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this ritual moment for the renunciation of evil uh for the renunciation of the devil of Satan. And I , I think that we need to start naming it . So this has been on my mind for years

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and it's coming up fresh because of this class that I'm teaching with. Doctor Rigby. Let me turn to her words and recommend her essay to you. Uh Especially those of you who, who might be

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like me that are in, you know, what used to be called the mainline traditions. Protestant traditions , you know, some might call us the lukewarm churches, you know, but we're the ones that

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don't talk much about evil and the power, the power of evil or the power of the devil. You know, we, we'll, we'll talk about sin although even some of our churches don't want to

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do that. Um But she wrote a, a chapter called Evil and the Principalities and the book which is in our Austin Presbyterian Theological Seminary library is called Life Amid The Principalities. And then there's a subtitle

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but Life Amid the Principalities. And Dr Rigby in her essay, writes in my view, reform, people of faith would benefit from conceptualized the demonic more concretely and can do without, can do so without

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compromising their convictions about the character of God's power. Because in, in my theological world, what that gets what she's saying there, what that gets caught up in and I'm refreshed in all this by reading

00:24:33.490 - 00:24:52.510

her, um her essay is, is that to , to um to enter into the renunciation of evil and naming things like racism as evil as demonic um is to, is to excuse me is um so

00:24:52.520 - 00:25:04.790

the, the things that are at risk is that we need to retain the belief that God is sovereign and all powerful and we also need to retain the belief in our God given human agency. So,

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so Dr Rigby will say at least in, in my theological world that Christ is triumphant over the powers of death and sin um over those powers over the powers and Principalities. Christ is triumphant. Christ is

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victorious. God reigns, God is sovereign. Um So it's not like there's an ongoing war between good and evil um that, you know, that was in, in, in my realm, declared a

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heresy. So, so to renounce evil is not to say that we're in this equal war. Uh Nor is it to swing to the other side and give up our complicity and our human agency um in

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anything that needs to be renounced and just say, oh, the devil made me do it right? That, that gets us off the hook and that's too easy. So I really commend her essay to

00:25:55.710 - 00:26:08.000

you, especially if you're in a faith tradition like mine because it, it, it helps sort sort that out. So, um when I think so let me add this, Doctor Rigby also says the

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demonic is understood as that, which stands in the way of people, knowing the gospel, the demonic is understood as that, which stands in the way of people knowing the gospel of grace. For me

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, the way that I conceptualize this is, you know, and I'm borrowing from different worshiping traditions here , but you know, all was created with original blessedness. God created Eden paradise, things in harmony

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, humans in harmony with nature, um not just humans, humans in harmony with all all created nature . There was harmony, there was shalom, there was dignity, there was us in the image of

00:26:48.900 - 00:27:07.680

God and what the power of sin does or the demonic is fragment that so we start living fragmented from the way we were created to be uh that, that also looks like disintegration. Um You know,

00:27:07.690 - 00:27:19.260

things chisel away at it feels like our very soul and, and we can't live fully as God's beloved in the image of God as we were meant to be. Um to speak of the power of the

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demonic is to say the way that we participate in mutilating the life that God gives, not, not just to humans but to all creation. So that fragmentation, disintegration, mutilation, um those, those

00:27:36.190 - 00:27:49.600

sorts of things um that, that I think we need to name and renounce Rigby. Goes on to pull on Harry Potter and this might land home for , for some folks. Um she writes to not

00:27:49.610 - 00:28:04.610

name distorted Principalities and powers by thinking of them only in the abstract feeds their power. It's only when naming them substantively that we can envision standing prophetically against them. As Professor Dumbledore tells Harry Potter when Harry

00:28:04.620 - 00:28:21.440

is trying to avoid saying the name of the evil Voldemort, always use the proper name for things. Fear of a name increases fear of a thing itself . Ok. So, um, let me,

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let me do a few more polls from another friend of mine who wrote another article and then I'm gonna , you know, try to start to bring this home. So we've got time for question and an

00:28:32.150 - 00:28:48.280

answer. So I have a good friend who is an Eastern orthodox Christian uh Ukrainian American, Nick Denis . And he um he, he does use the image of war and he reminds us that in ancient

00:28:48.290 - 00:29:02.330

baptismal practices that the prayer for the blessing of the water at baptism, petitions begs upon God to descend on the waters and cast out any dangerous creatures that might be lurking there. You know that dragon and

00:29:02.340 - 00:29:18.310

Gale's prayer is a long mythic motif that is connected with evil all through scriptures as well as other religious traditions. The church, Nick Denis Seko writes, imagined anointing the one to be baptized with holy oils

00:29:18.510 - 00:29:33.980

. Uh also as a way to prepare them to go to battle the oil, giving them a protective layer against the evil spirits. So there's this really old stuff in the church about um baptism and aligning

00:29:33.990 - 00:29:49.290

ourselves with Christ. And that lifelong work is also lifelong renunciation. My friend Nick goes on to say the war I describe here brings together the visible and the invisible things. So he says, naming the

00:29:49.310 - 00:30:04.600

, the wars that wage against us is possible in old traditions. They go by the name Legion. Traditionalists might prefer to use their older names of greed and gluttony and lust and so on. Others might

00:30:04.610 - 00:30:18.880

align demons with today's vices, substance abuse, sex addiction. We're all, we're no, none of us are immune to this war. Do you ever watch the clock close to lunchtime, wondering when you

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can break for lunch, meet the noonday demon who invites us to distract ourselves from boredom and monotony. Uh He's, he's referencing something that's really in the old, in the old tradition, the noonday demon

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um monastics speak of resisting the logo moy that torrent of words circulating in our brains and draining up of energy. Learn how to fast, not only from food but from the logos moi and that requires our

00:30:48.490 - 00:31:00.700

effort and our prayer. Those are a few examples . So what I'm setting out here is uh in the chapel here at Austin Seminary. The font is here, not because we baptize people. We're a

00:31:00.710 - 00:31:12.290

school, we don't do that, but for the most part, we're a baptized community. And so that font can remind us of so many meanings of God life giving for us. But one of the

00:31:12.300 - 00:31:26.300

things that I'm thinking about and, and I want it to present to us every day is that, is that to align myself with Christ also means that I am aware that there are demonic forces at play

00:31:26.640 - 00:31:45.230

inside of us among us in our institutions. So that's, that's about personal prayer, that's about a trusted community um to talk with and pray with. And I'm thinking liturgically, how have these things,

00:31:45.240 - 00:31:57.060

how some of these things like in my tradition, this, this movement of the Matthew 25 church to , to become justice seeking anti-racism, churches that, that look and care for the most oppressed and the

00:31:57.070 - 00:32:09.960

most vulnerable. I'm thinking liturgically, how can we have moments in the service where we might very well have a litany but connect it to the language of the baptismal renunciations so that when there is a baptism

00:32:10.210 - 00:32:27.130

and that renunciation language is used, those of us in that space, have it layered with all of these present day connections of what we need to be renouncing. Um so that we joyfully joyfully join as

00:32:27.140 - 00:32:44.640

one's belonging to Christ, anointed, blessed as part of his beautiful household. I'm gonna dismount there and stop so that we've got time and I'll see what happens. Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful. Thank you

00:32:44.650 - 00:32:54.110

, Doctor Lord. Immensely. Just a wonderful and rich and just really, really, really helpful um um lecture today. Uh I'm gonna ask everyone uh who is present if you have questions for Doctor Lord

00:32:54.120 - 00:33:04.520

. Go ahead and start generating those in the chat . We're gonna turn our attention to those uh here momentarily. As always, I have a long winded question to set up both to give the audience time

00:33:04.530 - 00:33:13.810

. But then also because I just love these particular topics. Um Doctor Lord one, I grew up Baptist. I've mentioned that to just about everybody on this campus. And so, um I think anytime

00:33:13.820 - 00:33:22.090

anyone starts to talk about the waters of baptism or just the baptism in general, my heart gets very happy. My late grandmother, I'm sure rejoices that all those times. She grabbed me to drag me

00:33:22.100 - 00:33:35.430

to church was wonderful. Um My question. Uh Well, my context. So I think how you describe the baptismal font today reminds me of OBA, one of our students here at Austin Seminary. He

00:33:35.440 - 00:33:45.600

was asked to talk about the font very briefly before uh in the midst of the beginning of chapel a couple of months ago at the conclusion rather of the fall semester. And he approached the font and just

00:33:45.610 - 00:33:55.100

talked about the waters of baptism, how it cleanses how it restores whether the students have gotten good grades or bad grades if they've had a good semester or a bad semester, if it's been a difficult time

00:33:55.110 - 00:34:08.690

or a trying time, but each time that the waters of baptism are pure enough to be able to wash away whatever ails us. And it wasn't um that ritualistic experience. It was a transformational transformative spiritual

00:34:08.700 - 00:34:21.450

experience. We all just felt it, it was just a helpful and pastoral word. And I think both in your lecture today and watching Ochoa in practice both your dictation and his demonstration reminded me of just

00:34:21.460 - 00:34:31.660

the power of baptism and how much it has just been reduced across denominations as of late to this. Um I've heard some people call it a press conference and it's letting the world know you switch teams.

00:34:31.670 - 00:34:40.320

You've gone from like, you know, the Dean of Sin and death and whatever else your churches were saying to the, the Kingdom of God or whatever , it's just become this, this outward symbol for

00:34:40.330 - 00:34:53.160

an inward change, which is important, but it's lost some of that spiritual transformational renewal that you were talking about today. Talk to us about that. Where did this journey happen of the the baptism,

00:34:53.170 - 00:35:05.740

the baptismal spiritual experience? How did it just get reduced to this one hour symbol that a lot of churches do and never really return to never invite folks to consider the power of the font again. Talk

00:35:05.750 - 00:35:13.940

to us about this shift. That's kind of happened in our culture because I hear you talking about how to reclaim that. I'm just curious if you have any thoughts or insights of how did we go left

00:35:13.950 - 00:35:21.660

? How did we miss it? How did we let go of this value which is so deeply needed in our culture and society today? And if you got questions, drop those in the chat. Ok

00:35:21.670 - 00:35:30.500

, thank you. Thank Kha. You're so great . That's, that's wonderful. So, you know , that could be a whole semester. We won't do that. Uh And, and I have a

00:35:30.510 - 00:35:42.820

handout that I actually use in class. Uh that , that I, that I have adapted from this , this wonderful scholar, Anita Stoffer. And she basically draws this chart where, you know, where

00:35:42.840 - 00:35:54.670

it goes from, it goes from the oceans and the lakes and the rivers to, you know, the fourth century, the, the those being baptized , you know, Christianity basically was um constantly getting

00:35:54.680 - 00:36:04.210

put out the edict, you know, we're not gonna kill them anymore. So people could be baptized and be, you know, kind of safe doing that. And so there were these very huge uh

00:36:04.220 - 00:36:15.420

buildings called Baptist tree and that's where the, that's where the water was and it was a separate building from the church because people got naked for the baptism . So, um and so there were deacons and

00:36:15.430 - 00:36:24.610

deaconesses shielding, you know, all that sort of thing. So they were oiled up and then the men went in the water and the women went in the water and then they processed in for the first

00:36:24.620 - 00:36:39.280

time to receive Eucharist. So basically, this chart shows it's just this chart that shows big, big , big bodies of water to t bird baths. So again, that would more represent my reform tradition

00:36:39.290 - 00:36:50.350

because Baptists, you know, you've kept an immersion tank or you still, you know, you still go out. Um You know, so for so for so for the traditions that we got to a

00:36:50.360 - 00:37:01.580

birdbath. Um Yeah, well, the 16th century reformers had something to do with that because there were , these extravagant is going on in Roman Catholicism at the time that, that they wanted to clarify,

00:37:01.590 - 00:37:12.970

you know, what are the true angelical meanings? But people like John Calvin never meant to get rid of the sacraments. Those are, those are means of grace. But what happened after the 16th century

00:37:13.020 - 00:37:27.740

is there became such emphasis on the sermon that the table and the baptismal practice really got diminished because it's the sermon. Um You know, we, we put the emphasis on teaching and in that infiltrated in

00:37:27.750 - 00:37:43.270

a lot of ways. Um So, so there's that aspect and, and the fact that uh um whereas like John Calvin wanted holy communion every week, baptism is only, you know, theologically just a

00:37:43.280 - 00:37:51.960

one time thing. Although, although, you know , it can happen multiple times for a person for different reasons. Um So it just kind of got locked into that. Well, if it's only a

00:37:51.970 - 00:38:01.280

one time thing, then, you know, it's over and done with and we don't have to think about it anymore. Um I think for Baptists and other traditions where it's not a sacrament, but it's

00:38:01.290 - 00:38:14.360

an ordinance that, that also might have something to do with it. Like, like I think your , your worshiping tradition has so much other rich language for uh the discipline of life in God. And

00:38:14.610 - 00:38:28.100

, and it might just be because it's not seen as a means of grace, but it's a, it's AAA sign of your submission and joining in Christ . Um that it just again, it's, there's

00:38:28.110 - 00:38:38.650

a lot with your tradition and my tradition, we , we kind of got to a fear of ritual and, and so that's, that's really deep in there. Um One of our, one of our

00:38:38.660 - 00:38:52.490

students who had my class last year, he, he went to do his um uh supervised practice of ministry and he's Presbyterian and he was at a different Presbyterian church and during the Confession of Sin and assurance

00:38:52.500 - 00:39:01.580

of pardon, he was gesturing toward the font, not even standing by it, but gesturing toward it , which is theologically spot on. But he said that confused everybody and it, and, and like

00:39:01.590 - 00:39:12.050

the reaction is they think we're being too Roman Catholic or something. So there are a lot of reasons it's gotten sideline now, that's really, really, really helpful. I greatly appreciate that. I remember

00:39:12.060 - 00:39:22.400

the first time I read a Richard Foster's Celebration Discipline about 19 years ago. You know, and he spends that first chapter talking about the disciplines and the practices and how transformational it is. And I remember

00:39:22.410 - 00:39:32.200

reading that at like 23 like, how come no one's ever taught this before? And so you're, you're spot on there, something there about the ordinance and about the practice um of these that yeah,

00:39:32.210 - 00:39:43.390

for whatever reasons, these different denominations have gone in different directions in terms of prioritizing one thing over the other. And yeah, we need to get back to a holistic approach for these things. So,

00:39:43.560 - 00:39:51.030

absolutely. Uh we've got a question, I want to say our audience so bad. We are not , we are live but my goodness, we are not in a room. OK. So we've got

00:39:51.040 - 00:40:02.620

a question from our attendees. Uh What role does the Holy Spirit play in baptismal spirituality? And that comes from Alan. So what role does the Holy Spirit play in baptismal spirituality? Yeah, everything.

00:40:02.630 - 00:40:13.470

Um Yeah, I, I mean, like, like I was saying, I think I want to define spirituality as life in the, in the spirit , life and the spirit of the risen Christ.

00:40:13.630 - 00:40:27.280

So, um again, it's, it, I don't know all the, all the theological traditions on this, on this webinar. But, but again , from the reform tradition, we, you know

00:40:27.290 - 00:40:37.240

, we, we, we want to hold that God has granted us free will. And so we've got human agency. So it's not just all like I'm a puppet of, of the Holy Spirit,

00:40:37.470 - 00:40:54.280

but, but um the understanding, the fancy word again is sanctification that um God wants us to grow uh or, or reorient to who we were created to be as, as beloved um as royalty,

00:40:54.490 - 00:41:07.050

as, as people who exist, honoring the dignity of each other and all creation. Um And, and all that, that means, and so that , that growth is spirit powered, right? That

00:41:07.060 - 00:41:20.450

, that, I mean, we, we join it with our disciplines and, and um our choices and we, we can turn from it or we can align with it, but it's, it's spirit

00:41:20.460 - 00:41:30.880

force. Absolutely. Wonderful. Wonderful. Thank you for that as well. Uh Rose is just posted the questions. Well, too, she said, how do you think it could change everyday life for

00:41:30.890 - 00:41:42.810

us if we were to have a consistent spiritual practice of remembering our baptism? How do you think it could change everyday life for us if we were to have a consistent spiritual practice of remembering our baptism?

00:41:43.280 - 00:41:58.330

Gosh, what a lovely question. I think it could. I think it could. So, so it was, it was the um it was the 16th century theologian Martin Luther who said every morning we

00:41:58.340 - 00:42:10.290

should wake up and for him make the sign of the cross, which, which is simply a sign meaning we belong to God and say I am baptized that, that that's like the first sentence out of

00:42:10.300 - 00:42:25.250

our mouth. Um or even before our feet hit the floor uh to remember whose we are, to whom we belong, who we are in our identity . And I, I love that question because again

00:42:25.300 - 00:42:38.490

, those are just small words. And so we have to keep layering the meaning on them. Um One of the things that I did in the part , one was read a poem by the nun Macrina

00:42:38.500 - 00:42:52.700

Whitaker who talks about um getting estranged from her baptism and then her, her last line speaks of recovering , standing in her baptismal power. And I once , when I was preaching on this at a,

00:42:52.710 - 00:43:05.020

at a youth event, uh I heard that the youth, the youth really seized on that and I , I especially think of that not, not only for grown ups, but with our youth and all

00:43:05.030 - 00:43:19.740

the messages that they're getting and how much um you know, thumbs up, thumbs down on social media and the bullying and to have practices that they grow of, of my identity is in God and,

00:43:19.740 - 00:43:32.290

and I am royal in the eyes of God and that's my true power. Um And to do that daily. Absolutely. I love it. Absolutely. That is fantastic. Excellent, excellent, excellent point

00:43:32.600 - 00:43:44.550

. Um We'll give folks a little bit more time uh to kind of generate some question, Rose is very happy with that response. Uh Trying to be a good uh participant is always, you know,

00:43:44.560 - 00:43:57.640

I always have questions. So, um there's a book uh by Daniel Renberg called on Repentance and Repair Making Amends in an unapologetic world. And one of the things that she talks about is very similar to

00:43:57.650 - 00:44:07.920

Mark No's book, uh The Civil Wars Theological Crisis , both of these theologians and historians kind of wrestle with the facts. Kind of going back to our original poem, that kind of the issues of uh

00:44:07.930 - 00:44:20.240

child slavery, genocide of indigenous peoples, marginalization of women that they're real just, it creates this theological crisis in the United States that much of the spiritual practices and habits that um the founding fathers and the

00:44:20.250 - 00:44:28.930

Puritans and Quakers and all those folks that they just for lack of a better word, they kind of leak out as we start to have these social issues that the church is unable to solve. And so

00:44:28.940 - 00:44:40.570

what Doctor Renberg says is that um forgiveness, reconciliation and atonement were three different things in the Old Testament . That's how serious they took them. And when slavery concludes, we told former slave owners, all

00:44:40.580 - 00:44:50.510

they had to do was really just apologize and say they were sorry but never really repent of racism, sexism, classism, any of those things. And so now we really don't know how to repent to

00:44:50.520 - 00:44:58.910

each other. We don't know how to atonally harm each other. We only know how to ask for . Say that I'm sorry. That's all we're really listening for. And then those habits don't continue.

00:44:59.430 - 00:45:08.070

I wonder the same thing about baptism because you know , the abolitionists were, there was a big issue with slavery in the United States that you could not be enslaved and be free. And so for them

00:45:08.080 - 00:45:17.540

, if you got baptized, you became an abolitionist . And so I wonder if you could speak to some of the historical things that we see happening or have happened in the United States. And if some

00:45:17.550 - 00:45:30.400

of these social issues that we've seen happen, and that also is contribute to this reduced opinion approach of the baptismal font. Because again, as you've described it right in your lecture, I think today,

00:45:30.670 - 00:45:40.010

this necessity for recognizing all of us have a habit , all of us have an addiction. All of us have a stronghold that we struggle with. That . The waters of baptism are thicker than the blood

00:45:40.020 - 00:45:50.190

of family and friends that God's power can set us free from those things and to rose's point, that's a question of we have to return to on a daily basis. So like we need the grace of

00:45:50.200 - 00:46:00.440

Jesus, we need the waters of baptism on a daily basis. Talk to us again about that. Do you see this happening in our society now where we've got this reductionist Christian approach that is just depowered

00:46:00.450 - 00:46:10.140

or devalued, uh the font and some of these spiritual habits and the ways in which those can, I guess just be restored in our society. In other words, do you think this stuff in the

00:46:10.150 - 00:46:22.780

past, historically and politically has also contributed in the United States to this a reductionist approach to the baptism ? And how do we recover some of those values because it's so desperately needed in our society? It's

00:46:22.790 - 00:46:29.900

a softball for how you want to talk about baptism and what's going on in our society. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean , I mean, I'm just like, ok,

00:46:29.910 - 00:46:38.790

so we should cote and, um, and, and, and I'm really glad this is being recorded because I want to see, I need to see that whole thing that you just said. So,

00:46:38.880 - 00:46:52.960

so I can work with it because I know, I know I am not, I'm not up to the, to the task of completely speaking to all of it except except to um OK, so,

00:46:53.000 - 00:47:08.880

so this gives me a chance to look at again at Dr Rigby's essay and again, turn you all to that because she in towards the end of the essay, she, she gets to the point where

00:47:08.890 - 00:47:23.800

she's talking about different theologian, you know, James Coan and Richard Nber, um and, and William Stringfellow and she starts to focus in on how, how do we identify how the demonic has taken hold

00:47:23.810 - 00:47:37.170

of institutions, right? So that the structural parts and, and I mean, institutions that, that's how we function because that's kind of organization society. So we don't do without them. But, but

00:47:37.180 - 00:47:49.580

they for a, a myriad of reasons, they turn towards the demonic and then kind of the trickle down effect is that we who work and live in them, you know, we're caught up in,

00:47:49.590 - 00:48:07.580

in how those things um play out. So, so first of all, all of these heinous atrocities that humans have done to each other and absolutely on this land around, around slavery and, and genocide

00:48:07.590 - 00:48:21.760

for indigenous, et cetera, et cetera. Um that is saturated in our institutions and it, it , it um so for me as a, as a white person, it takes um much work to

00:48:21.770 - 00:48:37.080

start to awaken and see that demonic and see how I contribute and participate in it. Um An example that Dr Rigby says, uh whether or not an institution we are involved in is actually veering towards the

00:48:37.090 - 00:48:49.420

dynamic. Um Or if we are off base about it, we can look for certain elements. If these are present three of these elements, she says are the denial of truth. The second one is

00:48:49.430 - 00:49:06.870

double speak or overt talk and the third one is secrecy and boasts of expertise. Go read, go read her essay again. Yeah. Um Let me go back. Gosh, you're asking me to look

00:49:06.880 - 00:49:21.850

at pages here when I'm OK. Here it is . OK. The book, the book it's in is called Life Amid the Principalities. And it's Doctor Cindy Rigby, she's essay number four and her essay

00:49:21.860 - 00:49:36.220

is called Evil and the Principalities. Um So I'll wait till you're done, Sean. So, all right. So this is, you know, this is all the thing about power, right? So

00:49:36.230 - 00:49:49.590

, so you know, so um the way that United States society has gone, it's been, it's been whites wanting to retain power and I was not just misspeaking when I said when I think of the

00:49:49.600 - 00:50:00.330

churches in Revelation and want to point the finger at some of my people and say we're the lukewarm ones that are gonna be spat out because we wanna keep the status quo because of how it keeps us in

00:50:00.340 - 00:50:08.940

power. Um So it's just, it's all, it's all in there. And so, you know , to, uh, you know, I can't just say go do renunciations at the font now because

00:50:08.950 - 00:50:19.760

that would freak some people out. Uh And you can, and it's, it's not, that's, you know, I don't think that's the way to , to cult, cultivate a congregation in a church

00:50:19.770 - 00:50:32.010

. But we can do some preaching and some teaching and some education um to connect with the power of renunciation with evil, with the, with the power of um opening our eyes and paying attention to what's

00:50:32.020 - 00:50:43.690

going on and the complexities of what needs renouncing. My goodness. That is fantastic. And it's probably a great place for us to be able to pause because I don't know how we can follow that in

00:50:43.700 - 00:50:53.850

any capacity. Uh I think just hearing the powers of the baptismal font and how it affects both our own individual lives. Uh But then also our communal lives, you talked about the power of the baptismal

00:50:53.860 - 00:51:06.650

font from a historical or denominational theological uh cultural uh and institutional perspective. And so again, sisters and brothers, as you're listening, as you're preparing to rewa this lecture, there's so much power in the

00:51:06.660 - 00:51:17.400

baptismal spirituality and recognizing uh the beautiful gift that this can be. I highly encourage you to be able to check out both the Doctor Lord's lectures and uh if you're nearby and want to get a master's degree

00:51:17.410 - 00:51:25.910

, oh, wait, no, we've got one more question. Uh Michael said before we are done . Hold on, Austin's got, oh yeah, we got time for one more, Michael for the

00:51:25.920 - 00:51:37.730

wind. Austin. I got you. Uh One more question it says in today's world, how do you see the demonic at work? And does the demonic try to imitate Christ? Excellent question. Oh

00:51:37.740 - 00:51:50.300

, yeah, excellent question. Um Well, I , I mean, I, I think I, I OK, I think all the ways that we name the ISMs is, is a start at naming

00:51:50.310 - 00:52:04.470

the demonic. So um sexism and racism and homophobia and you know, all the, all the, all the ISMs and, and uh then quick, I'll come back to that but quickly to the second

00:52:04.480 - 00:52:16.900

part of that. Does the demonic try to imitate Christ? Yes. Yes. And, and my memory of being in seminary and looking at scripture and , and, and kind of Jewish mystical um numbers

00:52:16.910 - 00:52:30.390

conception is that the, the numbering of the holy and the numbering of the demonic is just one number off because because it's, it's that close. Um But, but, but, you know, but

00:52:30.390 - 00:52:40.740

remember, I mean, we, we, we , so that's the danger of getting into all of this and, and you know, um and the , the, the holy one armor of God protect

00:52:40.740 - 00:52:53.580

us after this conversation because it, it opens up , the imps, opens it up but know that you stand firmly in that baptismal water. So I think our job is not to just repeat the big

00:52:53.590 - 00:53:06.590

vocabulary words ever. So I know Sean says this about just lifelong learning in general, but I don't think it's enough to just be saying racism and sexism . Those are big words. They're conceptual heady words

00:53:06.600 - 00:53:17.760

. We have to keep opening them up and attaching what they look like. And that's part of the work to do for a one leading prayers or in a sermon um talking with youth. We can't just

00:53:17.770 - 00:53:28.400

leave them as these concepts out there. Um That's part of their power also and that's part of how they get ignored. My goodness. Yes. Yes . Yes. Yes. Yes. I need to

00:53:28.410 - 00:53:36.770

come sit in your class. Yes. Yes, my goodness. That is great. Fantastic. Uh Did not our hearts burn within us? I love when people Michael and I were talking about it.

00:53:36.780 - 00:53:45.450

We love when the professors who come on love what they talk about so much. It's just in you . And so Doctor Lad just thank you for sharing your heart with us, your experience, strength and

00:53:45.460 - 00:53:53.830

expertise. So very grateful for that. You can tell sisters and brothers we have fun at uh cultivating ideas. And so let me make sure you come back next week and join us on October 10th.

00:53:53.840 - 00:54:07.650

Uh Reverend Doctor Dong Young, young uh expounds on reading Revelation without millennialism. Uh We often look at prophetic books to interpret our current political landscapes or our modern technological innovations. How do we live into the

00:54:07.660 - 00:54:17.260

hope of revelation without becoming a club astrologist? And I'd even add to coming to some of the cults or cult adjacent things that are out there right now as we try to nit pick from revelation and figure

00:54:17.270 - 00:54:29.010

out what God wants for us. So come here from someone who is a profounder testament scholar. Again , Doctor J Young uh young will be with us and so super excited for that blessings everyone. Thank

00:54:29.020 - 00:54:35.780

you again, Doctor Lord for joining us and sharing your experience with us. Have a fantastic week. Everyone. Take care. Bye bye. Thank you