00:00:07.870 - 00:00:16.180

Uh well in the interest of time and so that we can get to the, the presentation this morning and I welcome you all and again, would love to hear where you're joining from. You can drop

00:00:16.190 - 00:00:24.300

in the chat. And if you have anything particularly baptismal that you're doing for the season of Lent, we would love to know that as well. Um I'm Reverend Phil Dickey. I am the Director of

00:00:24.310 - 00:00:36.400

Congregational Innovation uh here at Austin Presbyterian Theological Seminary. Um And I've had the privilege to host these uh Cultivating Ideas series here as we kick off the spring season of this. Um This is the second one

00:00:36.410 - 00:00:46.510

of our series and this is a chance for our faculty to just share some of their wonderful insights as they're cultivating ideas in um both research and the academy , but also in ministry. And so we are

00:00:46.520 - 00:00:57.600

honored and privileged to have the Reverend Doctor Jim Lord with us today. Um Reverend Doctor Lord is the Dorothy B. Vickery, Professor of Homiletics and Liturgical Studies at Austin Seminary. She's a graduate from Albion

00:00:57.610 - 00:01:11.360

College, Princeton Theological Seminary and she did her phd work at the Graduate Theological Union um she's also ordained in PC USA and has been on staff at A P T S on faculty since 2005. So today's

00:01:11.370 - 00:01:21.370

topic, which is great, right? You're coming on 20 years. This is fantastic. Today's topic . Uh The Reverend Doctor Lord will invite us to think about the writing theology of baptism in order to

00:01:21.470 - 00:01:33.270

, to consider how the church is a community of the baptized and what a baptismal spirituality means for the life of faith in the storm tossed world. Right ? Amen. That uh she will also invite us

00:01:33.280 - 00:01:45.220

to consider a outstanding in our baptismal power means we can navigate rough waters and con or continuously change course as we orient toward God's abundant life. So as I welcome, Reverend Doctor Lord, I remind you

00:01:45.230 - 00:01:53.540

just to stay muted if you will during the presentation and then we'll have questions at the end. You're welcome to go ahead and drop questions in the chat between now and then. Um But then we'll have

00:01:53.550 - 00:02:02.170

a curated conversation as well toward the end with your questions. So um with that Reverend Doctor Lord, we turn it over to you. Great. Thank you so much, Phil is, is my volume

00:02:02.180 - 00:02:13.140

. OK. Great, good here. All right . All right. So thanks so much to Phil . And of course, Michaela is working the work in the background. So great folks here at Austin

00:02:13.150 - 00:02:27.940

Presbyterian Theological Seminary with lifelong learning. So thank you for this. And I just kind of am beaming because I recognize so many faces and names uh uh that are joining this. So thank you and very

00:02:27.950 - 00:02:38.260

excited to connect with, with any new folks. So looking forward to that, uh I'll say a few words, a few more words about myself and I do want to open us with prayer. I

00:02:38.270 - 00:02:50.180

think like so many of the professors here, at least I have way more material. So let's see how we do. But um but try to try to bring you some good stuff. And of course

00:02:50.190 - 00:02:59.940

, those of you, especially recently that have been with me for any classes here, you're, you're gonna hear some things that you might be able to say along with me in unison. We'll see.

00:03:00.280 - 00:03:10.860

Uh But to that end, I had sent out , I'd sent to Michael a, a PDF handout because I love quotations and, you know, if I read something that stirs me, I, I

00:03:10.870 - 00:03:22.630

, I wanna share it. And so that's, that's what those are. And so sometimes I'll be reading longer quote. And so you should have received a handout that you can look at, but Phil's

00:03:22.650 - 00:03:35.960

also gonna drop the quote into the chat. So there are at least a couple options for accessing that and of course, I'll be saying things. So that's some orienting orienting words. But let us begin

00:03:35.970 - 00:03:58.020

with prayer. Let us pray merciful God. We need your ever flowing grace for you are deep and refreshing be our well of mercy, provide our communities with the water that they need and make us all

00:03:58.560 - 00:04:16.510

a jug, a pitcher, a vessel with which to serve one another and your needy world. May it be so amen. One of the things that , that we are working on with um partnering with

00:04:16.520 - 00:04:29.110

lifelong learning and this will be kind of coming forward in the coming months is to really ground our work scripturally. And yesterday, we had a faculty meeting , we heard about that, you know, so

00:04:29.130 - 00:04:41.570

my topic is baptism, right? There's God, there's so many water images in scripture and of course , the great command to go and baptize. But for me, what I thought about as a framing

00:04:41.580 - 00:04:53.870

thought for what I'm doing with making the most of the font. I'll talk about that title in a bit. I actually pulled out just part of the verse from the story of the prodigal son. So

00:04:53.880 - 00:05:12.640

Luke chapter 15 verse 17 and that, that beginning of that sentence when scripture tells us of the prodigal son, but when he came to himself, but when he came to himself and for me, boy

00:05:12.650 - 00:05:29.520

, do I associate that with a baptismal spirituality, with baptismal identity with, with a lifelong growth in baptism. It is our returning again and again and again to come unto ourselves for who we are and

00:05:29.530 - 00:05:46.140

whose we are in God through Christ Jesus. So that's my orienting scripture for this work. And in this pres in this presentation, I want to touch on some baptismal themes or meanings in a way that

00:05:46.300 - 00:06:01.480

, that construct what I think of as a baptismal spirituality. So a baptismal spirituality, the way that we live according to God's Holy Spirit. But in this real world and the real materiality of this world

00:06:01.830 - 00:06:19.340

. So not a spirituality that is bifurcated from real physical material life, but through and through. And I also think of this as a baptismal spirituality for the ages. And I mean a double entendre there

00:06:19.350 - 00:06:34.700

, of what does that mean for 21st century folk and also what does it mean for our entire age span as, as human beings um in this cosmos . So from infancy, infancy to our last dying

00:06:34.710 - 00:06:53.440

breath. So just my way of thinking about a baptismal spirituality encapsulates these things. And I hope during this talk to also touch on and remind us of ways that we encounter and re encounter baptism and baptism

00:06:53.450 - 00:07:11.220

, baptismal spirituality in worship. And then if we have some time, I'm thinking about three particular societal factors that are, that we're immersed in right now . And what might a baptismal spirituality say to those

00:07:11.280 - 00:07:24.690

, those um powers and societal forces right now? So that's the introduction. And then I move to some preliminary remarks, right? You can't quite dive in. I have to do this little step here

00:07:24.940 - 00:07:40.910

. So some preliminary remarks, there's so much discussion of course, these days about being church and what church should be and do and how the church needs to change and the way that I'm oriented, what

00:07:40.920 - 00:07:51.150

I think about those questions and of course, I do, we all do. But my life's work has been to respond to those questions liturgically. So by that, I mean, I'm, I'm just

00:07:51.160 - 00:08:07.960

thinking with the framework of word and sacrament and these historical patterns for worship that are shared by the people of God across time and space that are in scripture that were, that were practiced by the early church

00:08:07.980 - 00:08:20.900

and, and still employed by so many of us . So I ground myself that way to think about what does it mean to be the church and the ways that we need to change, to be church

00:08:20.920 - 00:08:33.800

for this world, to be followers of Jesus Christ , to live under the direction of God's Holy Spirit for the life of this world. Now. And this is where I admit that when I was in

00:08:33.810 - 00:08:45.140

junior high school, I collected church bulletins. So just say it, I really, really, really did. I, I, I was at a congregation where they printed the pastor's sermons. I see

00:08:45.150 - 00:08:56.850

some of my colleagues really laughing at this. It's so right. But I, so I collected the sermons and the worship bulletins because I, I just was entranced by how, how things were ordered and

00:08:56.860 - 00:09:07.420

what the words were and how things were laid out . So it really is true. What I'm telling you my orientation is liturgical. So I think this way, even when somebody tells me they're at a

00:09:07.430 - 00:09:20.030

new church plant or a house church or a mega church or in a storefront or in a cathedral. You know, I'm, I'm just thinking, how , how are we gathering around the baptismal waters as

00:09:20.040 - 00:09:33.840

people baptized or inviting those to come and come through these waters and be fed at this table and be nourished in the word and be in covenant with one another and be God's people and light and salt for

00:09:33.850 - 00:09:46.130

all the needs of the world. So all of that is going on. I think there are these foundational patterns liturgically, but they are flexible. And so that's, that's some of what I, I

00:09:46.140 - 00:09:54.120

hope that we, we can play with a little bit here in this time. And I, and I have one specific part of a baptismal, right that I'm thinking about. And I, I wonder

00:09:54.130 - 00:10:07.760

how we can imagine being flexible with it. So I'll get to that. One of the quotations on the handout is by a reformed liturgical scholar, Howard Hegman. And he had this, this saying that

00:10:07.770 - 00:10:20.090

we love. He said, if you pull on the little finger of liturgy, you get the whole body of theology. And I, and I like that very much uh to look at the, especially

00:10:20.100 - 00:10:33.270

these, these foundational patterns or these central things, you know, uh we tug on that and there's , there's so much theological meaning for us to look at that's enacted there. So that's important to me

00:10:33.840 - 00:10:48.170

. Baptism for so many people is a one time event. And so sometimes that phrase, remember your baptism and be glad it. We, we get caught in thinking, oh, remembering means I need

00:10:48.180 - 00:11:05.190

to remember the actual moment or whatever somebody told me if I was baptized as an infant or a young person. What was that moment? But baptism is also for lifelong living. It's our lifelong growth in

00:11:05.200 - 00:11:22.650

God. It's our growth in the image and likeness of Christ as my systematics professor in um seminary put it baptism is both a punctilio event, a one time event and it's lifelong. So that's part of

00:11:22.660 - 00:11:37.120

the work that we can do in our assemblies and our congregations. How do we help people connect with the lifelong part? Not simply the punk tier. Um That one time part. So there is that

00:11:37.920 - 00:11:52.470

I think that baptism in a lot of places is a sidelined sacrament if that makes sense. Uh So , so in many of our spaces, there is the piece of furniture that is the communion table that's

00:11:52.480 - 00:12:05.790

present and rarely gets moved. Um not in everybody's space, but in so many spaces. But in some of our spaces still, if we're baptizing, using a font. So a piece of furniture that

00:12:05.800 - 00:12:18.780

has somehow a bowl of water, sometimes that's still off to the side or in a closet and it's only brought out when there's going to be a baptism . So that's what I mean, when I say

00:12:18.790 - 00:12:28.820

baptism in a way can still be a sidelined sacrament . So, one of the things I'll talk about is just physically, you know, how do we , how do we get that font moved out?

00:12:30.380 - 00:12:46.560

All right. Those are the preliminary remarks. My part one is to start with this poem by the Benedictine nun Macrina Whitaker. It's from her book, a tree full of angels. And this is again

00:12:46.570 - 00:13:01.000

on that handout, I'll read it and I think that Phil can put it in the chat as well . She is talking about her personal experience of her own baptism being sidelined in her life. If you

00:13:01.010 - 00:13:22.650

will. She says somewhere in between my baptism and my daily life, my power like unto God's became scattered. I forgot my original union with God. And as I grew, I chose good and evil

00:13:22.710 - 00:13:43.090

, light and darkness, life and death, grace and sin with my baptism lost. I began to live my life fragmented, standing on the edge of my baptismal powers and blind to their presence in the

00:13:43.100 - 00:14:01.810

depths of my soul. Her poem begins to name what happens when we no longer stand in our baptismal power that we can instead begin to live life in a manner that is fragmented, that we are listing

00:14:01.820 - 00:14:16.180

this way and that way, a sense of being tossed about my hope for this presentation is to invite us back to what it looks like to stand in our baptismal power or for some to think about how

00:14:16.190 - 00:14:28.370

we might introduce what it means to stand in their baptismal power. I remember one time I presented this poem and I was in a context where there were lots of junior high and high school people. And

00:14:28.380 - 00:14:41.470

that's, that's what those teachers they took away. Just that phrase and worked with the young adults and just worked on what, what does that mean? Baptismal power and to stand in your baptismal power?

00:14:41.520 - 00:14:52.730

So, so I, I love that and share that with you if you've not already heard of this poem. Well, we're right now in the season of lent in the Western church. And that is

00:14:52.740 - 00:15:09.970

the annual time like the prodigal to come unto ourself and return to God. It is exactly the time for us to make that return again to our baptismal powers. Uh or as another liturgical scholar, put

00:15:09.980 - 00:15:24.500

it to creep back to the waters because sometimes life is so hard. That's all we can do is barely move ourselves and creep back to the waters. So uh just a quick recap on that because I

00:15:24.510 - 00:15:37.080

, I love these history pieces. But basically in the early church, by the time that Constantine had given this edict and Christianity wasn't quite legalized yet. But, you know, things were opening up and

00:15:37.090 - 00:15:48.490

more and more people were interested in the Christian church . Probably some of them out of true faith and piety and some of them because they wanted to go around, go along with the crowd. But uh

00:15:48.720 - 00:16:03.410

there were so many people turning to the church that eventually, 3rd, 4th in the fifth century and thinking about Rome and other large capital cities with numbers of Christians. By that time, there needed to

00:16:03.420 - 00:16:17.510

be a very structured and intentional study and preparation for baptism. So that's that fancy word, the cat acumen it. That's the school for baptism. And the cata humans were the ones that had signed on

00:16:17.520 - 00:16:26.120

for this. And in some of those places, they were signing on for three years of study. Let me, let me just let that sink in . Can you imagine that now, a seeker coming

00:16:26.130 - 00:16:36.140

to your church and you're trying to, you know , are you interested? Do you wanna know more ? Well, yes. But now you need to join a three year program. So before we really

00:16:36.150 - 00:16:48.770

admit you to the fellowship and you pray the prayers and come to the table, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah. But historically, what, what we know is that when, when the cat humans

00:16:48.780 - 00:17:03.060

were in their third year and they were approaching the Great Pascal feast, the great Easter feast. And at that time, baptisms happened once a year uh at, at that Great Easter feast. Well,

00:17:03.280 - 00:17:18.670

the last 40 days before their baptism on Easter, there were extra depths of study and preparation. So that's where we got this practice of 40 days of lent. So for those of us now, especially

00:17:18.680 - 00:17:30.410

living in, in modern postmodern times, this practice of 40 days, of course, echo, echoing all these things from scripture. If we're already baptized , it, is that invitation again to come back

00:17:30.420 - 00:17:45.900

to the waters, to return to our baptismal powers , like the prodigal to come again unto ourselves. So the question is right, what's in these waters ? If I'm talking about pulling on the little little

00:17:45.910 - 00:18:00.860

liturgical finger of baptism and that there's this whole body of theology, what's in these waters? Some of you know that here at Austin Seminary when it's the start of an academic year and we have all of

00:18:00.870 - 00:18:15.470

our new students and it's orientation week. There's a time during orientation week when all of the chapel mice . So the Dean of Chapel and the Beatles and the liturgy professor, worship professor, we gather and

00:18:15.480 - 00:18:30.570

we do an orientation for the student at the chapel . And I use that time during orientation to welcome people to the space and talk about our space on campus. But in our chapel on our campus at

00:18:30.580 - 00:18:45.920

Austin Seminary, now we do have a baptismal font . We, we didn't when I first came here , but, but we do and we placed it not up front near the table or the chancel,

00:18:45.490 - 00:18:56.990

but we placed it rather closer to the nex, closer to the main entrance doors. So that for folks that are coming in through, you know what we might call the front doors, the main entrance

00:18:57.000 - 00:19:14.120

doors through the nex to come into the sanctuary or the nave. Um, one is passing by that stand with a bowl of water and as my predecessor , Stan Hall would say it needed to be a

00:19:14.130 - 00:19:22.560

bowl that was large enough to hold water that you could drown a cat in. Yeah, that was , that was his line. You know, what are we doing? If we're baptizing out of something

00:19:22.570 - 00:19:33.770

that's, that's too much smaller. So Stan got his way with that and, and not that any of us would try that, but that, that was his saying. So with these new students coming

00:19:33.780 - 00:19:48.660

for orientation, I bring them to stand around the font and acknowledge that though this is not a community that baptizes, right? Because we're not a congregation . We're very transitional with students coming in and graduating

00:19:48.190 - 00:20:02.070

. But, but for many of us, we are baptized and so part of the tradition and history of the school uh there is that symbol and there is is that symbol presented to us as we enter

00:20:02.080 - 00:20:15.370

that building. And I acknowledge that the students coming may come from different church ecclesial traditions and maybe they baptized in an ocean or a lake or a creek or maybe in their worship space. There is a

00:20:15.380 - 00:20:30.750

big baptismal pool uh built in, in the sanctuary . There are all these different ways. But nonetheless , here at the seminary even that bowl with just that much water is meaning so many things. And

00:20:30.760 - 00:20:41.300

I also let the students know that they'll see people coming into our space. And some of them are from traditions where they might make the sign of the cross, touch the water, some touch the water

00:20:41.320 - 00:20:52.920

, some touch the water to their forehead or touch the water to their heart. And some pass by and, and all of those things are ways that people interact with that water. And then I stand

00:20:52.930 - 00:21:07.200

there and I rehearse, you know, I don't give a text and verse for all of these images , but I rehearse some of the many meanings that are right there held in that bowl in our seminary

00:21:07.210 - 00:21:22.060

chapel. That those waters are the waters of creation . That those waters are the water of the flood , that the water there is the water that washed Naaman's leprosy and that the water there is the water

00:21:22.070 - 00:21:33.880

that gushed from the rock in the desert. And the water in that bowl is the water of the Red Sea that is parted for the liberation of the Israelites. And that water is the water of Mary's

00:21:33.890 - 00:21:49.350

womb. And that water is the water of Jordan . And that water is the water of life that Jesus promised the Samaritan woman. And that water is the water that is the river of life that flows

00:21:49.360 - 00:22:06.820

through the city coming from the throne of God, that river of life, which is lined with trees and whose trees bear fruits that are for the healing of the nations that water. So I do that

00:22:06.830 - 00:22:18.330

orientation with the students for two things, right to , to, to welcome them and be hospitable and bring them into this space and try to orient them to what they will see other people doing as they

00:22:18.340 - 00:22:34.010

interact with that water. But I'm also doing it because it's my way of inviting them to connect with . Hopefully, at least one of those scriptural images for the meanings of baptismal water because I want them

00:22:34.020 - 00:22:49.100

to stand in their baptismal power. And also because I'm starting to introduce them if they haven't already thought about this to an understanding of what a symbol is . So that's another quote I have on a handout

00:22:49.110 - 00:23:04.860

for you. It's a quote that I like very much about how we define a symbol. So this is the one that is by Nathan Mitchell from his writing symbols are actions not objects. And Nathan Mitchell

00:23:04.870 - 00:23:19.150

says what we need today is not so much better symbols, but a willingness to let ourselves be grasped and explored by them. A symbol is not an object to be manipulated through s mime and memory.

00:23:19.920 - 00:23:40.220

It is an environment to be inhabited. Symbols are places to live breathing spaces that help us discover what possibilities life offers. So I love that quote. I think of that language of a symbol as an

00:23:40.230 - 00:23:56.020

environment to be inhabited there's so many meanings, a symbol by definition means that there are multiple meanings as opposed to something being a sign that has a 1 to 1 connotation. And especially for um liturgists,

00:23:56.120 - 00:24:08.330

things that are that we're handling or rather as Mitchell says that handle us in worship are symbols with so many meanings. And so that's very important. And actually, my title for this presentation is therefore tongue

00:24:08.340 - 00:24:21.360

in cheek making, making the most of the thought . I, I just, I was, I just was playing around and I flipped that because yeah , OK, we can talk about the practicality of

00:24:21.370 - 00:24:32.540

decisions that we make. But I was, I was really gearing towards this quote. You know, are we the ones grasping and moving around and making the most of this? Well, if so let

00:24:32.550 - 00:24:48.650

us first, let us first understand how the waters of baptism and the claims of those waters have grasped us and then we are co creators with what happens with that. All right. So I am at

00:24:48.660 - 00:25:00.740

the point now where let me, let me just mention a few more things and then, and then I wanna set out this one particular thing that I am thinking about. So mentioning what I do with

00:25:00.750 - 00:25:15.610

the students in orientation and naming all of those scriptures . One thing I put on your hand out was a list of just theological um concepts and how those are connected with baptism. And I don't know all

00:25:15.620 - 00:25:30.150

of the various ecclesial traditions that are on this webinar . I certainly see uh United Methodist and lots of Presbyterians and a few Lutherans and, and others. Um So, not all of us may, may

00:25:30.160 - 00:25:44.320

have all of these uh theological i identifiers, but many of us do so, especially towards the bottom of that list, you know, incorporation, initiation , rebirth, cleansing, beginning, sanctifying. I

00:25:44.330 - 00:25:59.560

do want to underscore baptism is also prophetic and missional . Uh So, so language in our baptismal rights often highlights that, that it is, it is a prophetic act. We are, we are aligning

00:25:59.570 - 00:26:15.220

ourselves with Christ who we say is priest but but and king, but also prophet. So this missional and prophetic understanding to baptism. And I think that's , that's very important and I want to return to

00:26:15.230 - 00:26:33.600

that on the handout. I also listed for you just the things that I have noticed that many people have been doing to if you will um decent or , or bring back baptismal focus to the center,

00:26:33.610 - 00:26:48.040

if that literally might mean moving a font from a sideline uh back to a more central place. And I've listed for you here in bullet forms, just some suggestions and many of you do these already but

00:26:48.050 - 00:27:10.320

ways of incorporating baptism, baptismal reference, baptismal theology , baptismal spirituality into your week to week worship services even beyond simply the Lenten or Pascal season. What I'll end with is saying something that I've been thinking

00:27:10.330 - 00:27:25.640

about more and more in the full baptismal rights of the churches. You know, of the 4th and 5th century, I talked about how there were so many cat humans. And, and so, you

00:27:25.650 - 00:27:42.770

know, the the rights were very robust. But one particular part of the right was after the candidate was presented and made ready before a prayer was said over the water and before the use of the water

00:27:42.780 - 00:27:56.400

and the Triune name before that, there was this component in the right that is called the renunciations and the profession of faith. So many of us are in a tradition where we know that's where the apostles

00:27:56.410 - 00:28:10.120

creed goes. Right? That's the, that's the original baptismal creed. The nicene creed really became connected to a word and sacrament service, a eucharistic setting . But it's the apostles creed that got, that

00:28:10.130 - 00:28:23.810

got set and formed in relation to baptism. But what's very important and some of us in our traditions have recovered the renunciations in our worship books. Uh It, I think is the use of those renunciations

00:28:25.310 - 00:28:37.650

in my Presbyterian context. We have some choices because we like to give choices. So sometimes the renunciations are threefold. So that's echoing a Trinitarian, you know, and that's a, a renunciation of sin

00:28:37.660 - 00:28:51.250

, a renunciation of sometimes we'll use the language of the devil or Satan um And of, of evil works in the world. So a, a literal , the candidate for baptism being asked, do you

00:28:51.260 - 00:29:03.370

renounce these things? Yes, I do. And then profession of faith, the apostles creed. So , when I was growing up, I never saw that but in, in the workings in the Presbyterian

00:29:03.380 - 00:29:17.780

church and revisions of our book of Common Worship, we have incorporated that again. And I would like to see us. Um You know, I talked about there's flexibility with rights, there's a way in

00:29:17.790 - 00:29:32.300

which, you know, so my denomination has, has this movement of thinking about Matthew 25 churches and churches that are, that are um covenanting to be engaged in justice issues and, and righteousness issues and

00:29:32.560 - 00:29:47.750

anti racism work. And, and I, I want to find ways that we can connect that liturgical work of renunciations with the ways that we think about what needs to happen in the world around social justice

00:29:47.760 - 00:30:03.750

issues. You know, we've got this liturgical framework that right now only happens at the right of baptism . And I wonder about uh it becoming a form that is more transferable, maybe for special worship services

00:30:03.760 - 00:30:17.640

or maybe consistently during a penitential season like lent or advent. And we work with that renunciation framework because here's what happens, right? When it's part of the baptismal, right? It can just sound like

00:30:17.650 - 00:30:29.050

formal words and we don't really know what it means . But if we start using it in other ways and connecting these commitments to it, then when it comes back and we hear it again at baptism.

00:30:29.060 - 00:30:38.010

Wow, it's been fleshed out and all of a sudden it, you know, it's a lot more gutsy, you know, what are we doing when we're standing there and saying I renounce this, I

00:30:38.020 - 00:30:55.460

renounce this because I am committing myself to covenant even more align myself with Christ. I must renounce these things and these ways and these structures and these actions and these habits and these values. That's, that's

00:30:55.470 - 00:31:08.540

the big thing that I've been thinking about. Um when I, when I imagine well making the most of the font. But what's a baptismal spirituality? How can we look specifically at some of the structure

00:31:08.550 - 00:31:23.670

of the rights and what those components mean? And then like I just gave this example, how might it transfer and be open, opened up and be very useful and helpful and meaningful? Um Both how

00:31:23.680 - 00:31:37.580

it references back on the right and how it keeps that sense of us standing in our baptismal power when we're talking about these things. All right, I'm checking my time. So I know I need to

00:31:37.590 - 00:31:51.570

stop even though I have more. But, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna end it there and turn it back over to Phil and move into questions and answers. Thank you all so much. So,

00:31:51.580 - 00:31:59.350

you're welcome to raise your hand on here or you're welcome to just take yourself off mute and go ahead and, and present any questions you have. If you are in a space where you can't uh come

00:31:59.360 - 00:32:07.140

off mute and, and ask a question feel free to drop it in the chat and I'd be happy to read it out loud for you. So, um the table is open for any conversation, any

00:32:07.150 - 00:32:20.760

, any questions that you all may have and as you muster up your courage, um I remember doctor Lord, whenever I was doing young adult ministry at church, I had a person come to me,

00:32:20.770 - 00:32:30.860

he was doing his doctoral work as well and said , hey, I would love for young adults to go through catechesis again. And we did a about a six month process of like going through that cat

00:32:32.110 - 00:32:43.270

, cat, cat. That's the word right cat a process and, and just being able to dive deeply into these statements, you know, like, like you were just doing was, was really profound

00:32:43.280 - 00:32:49.680

for them as young young adults who some of them grew up in the church and some did not. So it was really, really pretty fascinating. They also got free lunch. So I think that helped

00:32:49.690 - 00:33:08.490

you. But um conversation questions, Bobby, go ahead. I just wanted to say, Doctor Lord , thank you for um kind of explaining what is in the water, you know, water that washed

00:33:08.500 - 00:33:23.620

Damon and all of that stuff. No one has ever, you know, in my 72 years, nobody's ever taken time to explain all of that. And now, you know, putting that into my

00:33:23.630 - 00:33:38.300

reference when I'm planning my next baptism, I hopefully will be able to incorporate that into the service. So thank you very much. I'm very glad to see you Bobby and thank you for that comment.

00:33:38.430 - 00:33:51.290

And, and I want to direct you, I at the hand in the handout, I just gave a few notes of suggestions for further reading. So because you spoke to that point, I want to

00:33:51.300 - 00:34:04.800

point you to Gail Ramshaw book words around the font . Uh because that's what she does in that book . It's just chapter after chapter of a scripture story . And how, how does that scripture relate to

00:34:04.810 - 00:34:16.640

a baptismal theme of the, one of the aspects of theology, of baptism? So it's beautiful and I commend that to you. Thank you. Thank you, Bobby. And Bert asks in the chat

00:34:16.650 - 00:34:28.590

, does baptism end with death or is it then complete somehow? Oh, that's a great, that's a great question. Yeah, because we have that language uh in a lot of us in our churches

00:34:28.610 - 00:34:43.110

either literally have that as a liturgical phrase. Our , our baptism is complete at death. Um So that, that's how the phrase is. And I mean, like, was this somebody tossing me a

00:34:43.120 - 00:34:53.860

nice softball so I could take a so, so let me say that that again. I don't know all the ecclesial traditions. But if you've ever, well, if you've ever taken my class, you've

00:34:53.870 - 00:35:07.100

done, you've done this, it some of you have experienced a funeral where there, because the, the body is there or even the ashes So there's a casket or an urn. But at the beginning

00:35:07.110 - 00:35:20.230

of the funeral service, there's a placing of a white cloth. And so over the casket or over the urn, obviously, the white cloth would be smaller, but that's called a Paul P A L

00:35:20.260 - 00:35:37.640

L. That's where pall bearers come comes from. And that is a baptismal reference and that it's exactly that, that uh that our, our lifelong movement um as, as humans is, is growing into

00:35:37.650 - 00:35:52.690

all that we were created to be as God's beloved own. And, and we grow into that and that completion at death with the understanding, right? That, that after physical death, there is the

00:35:52.700 - 00:36:10.530

promise of resurrection. So, yeah, that's, that's the phrase and then that's the, the liturgical part of using a pall, placing a Paul. Mm Correct. I've seen in a couple of churches

00:36:10.540 - 00:36:25.610

lately, the pastor go to the font to give the assurance of forgiveness. Do you have thoughts about that? Yeah, the students here practice that. Um So when I was mentioning that on the handout

00:36:25.620 - 00:36:42.640

, I've given you a list of, of ways that you might include baptismal reference or baptismal interaction, that's absolutely appropriate. Because if, if you think about, you know what, what's happening at the

00:36:42.650 - 00:36:59.410

confession of sin, what we're doing is again, a sort of renunciation and turning again, we're saying these are the ways that we are not living as God's own and we are not living in community with

00:36:59.420 - 00:37:13.090

the whole cosmos um as, as God created us to be and, and we are confessing that and in a way, we are renouncing that sin and turning again. So, um you know, the

00:37:13.100 - 00:37:27.400

Greek of the metanoia of, of that about face literal turning. So it's, I think it's very appropriate to be at the font for both the confession of sin and the assurance of pardon. And the

00:37:27.410 - 00:37:40.730

students here practice, you know, sometimes they'll lift up water um at certain, you know, kind of identify what words would be most meaningful for hearing and seeing the water lifted or sometimes there's a picture

00:37:40.740 - 00:38:00.360

and they pour water at that point. But absolutely , I think that's just right integral theologically, other questions or welcome to, to bring a comment or idea forth to Doctor Lord as well. City.

00:38:01.350 - 00:38:13.010

Thanks Jen. Thank you so much for your presentation . It's so good to see you. Um I have a question for you. I just finished up a call as an associate pastor and I'm gonna be

00:38:13.020 - 00:38:24.330

moving into a new role where I have more authority to kind of shape the worship life of the congregation . Um And one of the things I'm thinking about is where to place the sacrament of baptism in the

00:38:24.340 - 00:38:37.030

order of worship. So my previous call always put the sacrament of baptism immediately following the children's sermon, which is obviously not where it is suggested to go in the book of common worship but the thing that

00:38:37.040 - 00:38:49.680

was lovely about that was that the Children were able to participate, they made promises to the newly baptized as well. Um, and there's also the pragmatic things around that about actually letting the parents kind of

00:38:49.690 - 00:38:59.640

breathe a sigh of relief earlier in the service and not have to sit there with a crying or wiggling baby forever. La di da. Um, but the, the downside of that was that the liturgical

00:38:59.650 - 00:39:14.050

, right was kind of diminished. And so I'm wondering if there's like a happy medium, if you have any advice around really honoring that moment, having a fuller richer liturgy if it doesn't follow the sermon

00:39:14.710 - 00:39:24.890

. Hm. Well, uh thank you, sweetie . I feel like I just got a PC USA ordination question. So that's great. That's great. That's great because, and I say that because,

00:39:24.900 - 00:39:36.850

you know, so, so the ordination questions moving through the process towards ordination for Ministry of Word and Sacrament, the questions are often pairing, you know , what, how do you parse out the theology

00:39:36.860 - 00:39:44.290

? But then there's the rubber meets the road practical , you know, and you can't, you, you got to be able to work with both. And so that's, that's what you just gave me

00:39:44.580 - 00:39:55.640

. Um And then, right, the dimension of your moving into, I, I'm assuming a new place. And so, uh there's so many of you on this call that are so much more seasoned

00:39:55.650 - 00:40:07.470

than am I in pastoral work. But you know , you've just got that balance of what can you change right away and what you not change right away . And how many trust points do you give up

00:40:07.470 - 00:40:19.510

if you make certain changes? And just the fact of kind of where we are right now globally, you know, uh changes is, seems harder than ever. So, it's being a good pastor,

00:40:19.520 - 00:40:31.300

I think, and reading all of that, I mean, you know, in my ideal world, it would be ok that, that the young people were able to stay through the entire worship service and

00:40:31.310 - 00:40:45.720

, and that, you know, somehow there was some differentiation around restriction of pews and not just the parents that were, that were sitting with the Children as, as they're roaming around in a place that

00:40:45.730 - 00:40:58.000

doesn't have pews, that's still part of the sanctuary . You know, this is, this is all kind of ideal. I know that. Um but , but um my, I'll mention this, my

00:40:58.010 - 00:41:08.270

husband who converted to Eastern Orthodoxy. So I quite often worship with him in a space with no pews and it's a two hour liturgy and the kids are always there. And so it's, it, it

00:41:08.290 - 00:41:19.790

, it, it's also about what the whole community , what becomes normative for the whole community because there , it's like, it's like we're the stones and they're the little fish going around us all the time

00:41:19.800 - 00:41:30.420

and you just watch different people help with that. It's really beautiful. Um But that's so different, you know, that's not us. So I, I, but what I do love is to,

00:41:30.430 - 00:41:42.960

I imagine, you know, so if I had my ideal world with this, we'd still have the full baptismal, right? But the Children right there gathered around the font, the, the, I

00:41:42.970 - 00:41:54.120

think the Children right there with their hands at the water when we're saying the great prayer with the epic and calling the Holy Spirit, you know, um the, these, these not only with, with

00:41:54.130 - 00:42:06.630

um the, the question about being a congregation and saying yes, because I, because I've also been places where if it's a young person being baptized, then it's not just to the congregation. Do you

00:42:06.640 - 00:42:15.550

promise to love and nurture and support? It's also to the Children. Do you promise? You know , so that's wonderful that another flexibility of rights and how do you open them up? So, in

00:42:15.560 - 00:42:29.130

my ideal world, it would still come after the sermon so that there's the, the preaching of the word um and, and moving into the sacrament and , but there would be the whole community engagement for

00:42:29.140 - 00:42:38.960

participating in the care of the Children in that time to get them through. But, but I hear what you're saying, you know about that it, that it has to be before and in relation to

00:42:38.970 - 00:42:52.480

the children's message. So I don't have a clear call for you. Thank you for that response. And yeah, something certainly to continue to think through and where I have the flexibility to make changes.

00:42:52.490 - 00:43:02.160

But I appreciate that. And I love the idea of having the Children gathered and participating in the prayer . That's beautiful. Yeah, the importance of context . I think that's, that's good. And thank

00:43:02.170 - 00:43:22.650

you for that. Doctor Lord Ashley. Go for it. Hey. Um So I'm planning a baptism remembrance and a baptism on East. No, sorry . OK. Um Anyways, someone asked to be

00:43:22.660 - 00:43:36.180

baptized outside and um I would love to take folks to like a lake here in town or something like that. My question is if I'm doing, if we're doing a baptism, plus a baptism, remembrance

00:43:36.310 - 00:43:49.460

, what's a way to incorporate like the remembrance piece if we're like in a lake, for instance? Yeah. So, OK, so your question is more how to pair those two things? It's not

00:43:49.470 - 00:44:00.400

, it's not about, can you bring it? So everybody's going to the lake? Oh, easy . You just do the baptism first and then you do the affirmation for everybody right after that. OK

00:44:00.410 - 00:44:13.310

. And then what about like the use of the actual water? Because I know that like, yeah , how, yeah. Splash everybody. Yeah. Yeah. So, so if you're at a lake

00:44:13.320 - 00:44:21.730

and I don't know how big your crowd would be . But, but if I, you know, OK, so, so if I were doing this , do you think everybody will come in the water

00:44:21.740 - 00:44:31.530

or no, some will stand on the shoreline? Probably. So I would just, I would just have a bowl, you know, and just go after the baptism or, you know, dip some

00:44:31.540 - 00:44:40.730

out and then, you know, you just tie , it's nice to tie something that's evergreen. So , here in Texas because I know you're here, you just, you can get a bunch of rosemary

00:44:40.770 - 00:44:51.530

and bunch it up and you get a really good asperges. That's the fancy word for sprinkling. Remember if you, you know, you don't have the long tendrils. You trim them down. You gotta

00:44:51.540 - 00:45:00.370

, this is the fun part. You know, you just Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you just have that and that and so you do the baptism and then, and then you do Yeah,

00:45:00.380 - 00:45:14.300

the sprinkling for everybody because I know you've got the books in the right and you can look at that easy, easy peasy. So fun. Yeah, I guess this is like uh also an extension.

00:45:14.310 - 00:45:30.050

What if other folks are around and kind of like looking on? I just wonder if there's, I'm just thinking about missional, like you're saying like how in the public act of baptism? Um I don't

00:45:30.060 - 00:45:43.850

know, how would we include? Yeah. So I'll tell you a story. So my, so I mentioned my husband's um East uh Eastern Orthodox and uh what we call epiphany, they call theophany and

00:45:43.860 - 00:45:54.550

that's when they do the blessing of the water because they understand, well, there's, there's so much to the theology of, of Christ's baptism, but 11 thing that comes through, um Byzantine hymn Gray

00:45:54.560 - 00:46:07.150

, their song tradition is that in Christ's baptism, all the waters of the earth are cleansed. So , you know, so it's, it's this idea of, of things didn't go so well in Eden

00:46:07.260 - 00:46:15.490

, people got kicked out, you know, what's the restoration like? And, and how that comes through Christ. So there's, there's this restoration of the waters so you can Google this and find all

00:46:15.500 - 00:46:27.770

these different plays all over the places all over the world where there's an orthodox blessing of the waters on theophany. And so if they're up north, they go carve across in the ice and then dip,

00:46:27.780 - 00:46:39.320

dip across in. But uh so out in California , my husband's home church, we leave the church and we process through this very high end, well , heeled town and, and process, and we're

00:46:39.330 - 00:46:49.900

singing, you know, Christmas songs, baptismal songss . Uh because that's the 12th, that, that's , you know, the day after the 12th day of Christmas singing and there's procession with all their fancy

00:46:49.910 - 00:47:01.870

stuff and we're walking downtown to bless the creek to your point, Ashley. I watched the priest's wife say to people who were looking at us, we're going down to bless the waters because today's theophany and

00:47:01.880 - 00:47:15.470

just very excited. Say that's what we're doing. And they went, oh, and so that's what I'd say. We're having a baptism and we're renewing people in their baptisms and that's it. And then

00:47:15.480 - 00:47:29.090

if they want to know more. Yeah. And I'm, yeah, I love that. I love that. It is my hope that baptism can be like, well, people are coming in. Right

00:47:29.170 - 00:47:38.330

. Right. That's right. That's right. Yeah , I think that that's one aspect of thinking about mission. Yeah. If you didn't see the chat , uh, Bobby suggested a super soaker maybe to

00:47:38.340 - 00:47:49.110

just go ahead and share that water. Thank you . Yeah. And then Holly left a really great message too about what they did at Lake Erie and starting sea glass and then um blessing the sea glass

00:47:49.120 - 00:48:01.550

as well. So be sure and check that out in the chat. That's awesome. In a cold place. Yeah. Yeah, that sounds really chilly . But Annabelle. Oh, I can't hear you

00:48:09.880 - 00:48:29.760

. No, can't hear you yet. Annabelle. Hear me now. Yes. And my question is , is it appropriate? And is it a practice to do baptism on a Christmas morning? Oh,

00:48:29.770 - 00:48:52.370

is it appropriate? Hm. Absolutely. Mhm. What, what's your hesitation? No, it's, am I 39 years of ministry? Yes, I was faced with uh infant baptism on Christmas morning.

00:48:52.380 - 00:49:09.520

I see. I am 20 that was 2022. Um because they were coming from abroad from London and they are members of our congregation and um my elders , you know, it's not something that happens in

00:49:09.530 - 00:49:25.990

PC TT in the Presbyterian that b is not done on Christmas morning. So my elders and I, you know, we had a real um difference of opinion. So I'm asking, you know, I

00:49:27.000 - 00:49:39.610

went ahead and did it because I was not going to have that couple upset that the child can be baptized before they go back to their contracts in London . So I'm just asking on the worldwide perspective.

00:49:39.620 - 00:49:52.360

It is it per Mr Blood, is it, you know, in keeping with traditions? Yes. So I immediately answered yes because, you know, the nativity of Christ that Christmas is, is one

00:49:52.370 - 00:50:08.280

of the main feast days for Christians. Um But your question reminds me to say that kind of what developed over, over early history of the church was that whereas baptism was done on Easter Eve, right

00:50:08.290 - 00:50:20.060

? Just like we have Christmas Eve, Easter Eve , the big vigil of Easter was the time of baptisms. But then it spread out to the other um feasts of the year that have, have pretty

00:50:20.070 - 00:50:30.280

obvious baptismal focus. So the Lord's baptism, all Saints Day and Pentecost. And then when you, when you think about those four feasts and kind of put them on the calendar, I mean, it

00:50:30.290 - 00:50:40.080

depends where Easter Falls. So that shifts. But you know, it's, it's pretty spread out through the year. So if that happens, sometimes I , I say, well, you know, could

00:50:40.090 - 00:50:52.090

, would you be here on the Sunday right after January 6th? You know, because that's Jesus baptism , that's a very obvious time. So I might ask that. But again, you're talking about the

00:50:52.100 - 00:51:06.920

pastoral practical decision. Absolutely. Because, you know , this is again, when you're thinking about the liturgical year, um Christmas, like our hymns say , you know, he was, he was born

00:51:07.040 - 00:51:17.320

to die. He was, you know, the , the, it's all wrapped up. And so it's, it's not only about the infant, it's about who that infant is and that infants mission in

00:51:17.330 - 00:51:37.860

the world. And so, absolutely, baptism is fitting for that day and any Sunday. Yeah. Well, friends, we have seven minutes left. So we probably have time for about one more question

00:51:37.870 - 00:51:58.120

if anybody has one. Um not seeing anybody jump to unmute themselves or raise a hand here. So , Doctor Wood, I'd love for you to give us a blessing or a kind of benediction before we

00:51:58.130 - 00:52:08.810

go if you will. Yeah, I would be , I would be actually, I was gonna just dip into one more uh one more little teaching moment that might serve also as a blessing. So,

00:52:08.840 - 00:52:24.450

um one of the, one of the societal factor pieces that I was thinking about is kind of the broad concept of identity and the way that I'm thinking about it is, oh, gosh, maybe 15

00:52:24.460 - 00:52:36.000

years ago, this credit card company capital one had this series of ads about identity theft and if you go back and watch them, you know, it , it just, it was kind of playing with

00:52:36.280 - 00:52:47.560

who's, yeah, somebody's stolen a credit card. But I, but I think about that and I think about the forces that we live with that are functioning as identity theft for us, you know,

00:52:47.570 - 00:53:00.320

so, so there's so much now to be concerned about, especially for young people with social media and that power to function like an identity theft. I mean, you know, they're positives but I'm,

00:53:00.330 - 00:53:10.390

but right now I'm pointing out the things that are concerning uh simply the the market forces of capitalism, everything is monetized. You know, that's part of why we're in the temporality. We are now 24

00:53:10.400 - 00:53:22.710

7. Um is, is, is, you know, it's, it's a capitalistic temporality. And , and so, what's that doing to our sense of identity? It's, it's a how that functions

00:53:22.720 - 00:53:32.640

as identity theft. Um And you know, just out and out advertising, you know, your or , or our own social media, you know, comparisons and am I good enough, am I this

00:53:32.650 - 00:53:45.460

, am I that, you know, all of that? Um So, so there was a, a service a year or so ago here at the seminary and it was uh in relation to uh Jesus

00:53:45.470 - 00:53:58.550

baptism. It was happening on a, on a Tuesday right after that. And so I invited people to come and be anointed while I was standing at the font. And I had shared that Mna Whitaker

00:53:59.250 - 00:54:10.340

uh poem. And then the anointing was with language about standing in your baptismal power because anointing with oil was, was one of the secondary rights of, of baptism. And I think it's beautiful to recall

00:54:10.350 - 00:54:21.190

because then we can use it. You have to do a lot of introduction and pastoral work with this , you know, but it can be used for commissioning and for healing and for visits. But,

00:54:21.650 - 00:54:35.160

but in that, um we moved kind of moving to the font and thinking about how, you know , what is our identity to stand in our baptismal power and to use that language of the garden that

00:54:35.170 - 00:54:47.850

we were made for the garden. We were made for paradise and for beauty and for harmony with all creation and for shalom and wholeness and dignity and communion with our creator and all created beings. Uh Elsewhere

00:54:47.860 - 00:55:02.140

of the same nun, Sister Macrina wrote, I will believe the truth about myself no matter how beautiful it is, I will believe the truth about myself no matter how beautiful it is. And so then

00:55:02.150 - 00:55:17.560

I ended with this, this um I was repeating this language of being anointed. So let this be our blessing because you are royally loved because you are robed in the majesty of humanity because you were fashioned

00:55:17.570 - 00:55:32.900

for joy and harmony and honor because you were made for justice and righteousness. We need anointing and standing in our baptismal power because we forget who we are beloved ones of God. We are arcs of the

00:55:32.910 - 00:55:47.880

covenant sent to the world. We walk in holiness just as we are and as we will be, our wounds are known. By the crucified king. We stand in our baptismal power because the spirit holds

00:55:47.890 - 00:56:04.630

us fast. We stand in our baptismal power to walk in righteousness. We stand because we were created for wholeness. We indeed are the trees that are planted by the river of the water of life.

00:56:04.640 - 00:56:15.510

And our leaves are for the healing of the nations . May it be so? May it be so ? And then will you all join me in? Just thanking Doctor Lord in whatever way you can there

00:56:15.520 - 00:56:28.400

from your your screen? Um We are grateful for your time this day and for inviting us to consider what the font truly has for us here. Um Real real quickly here as we're we're wrapping. I

00:56:28.410 - 00:56:38.050

know that um we just had one more. Where can we read more about the Paul the white cloth , Annabel asked. Oh. I really hope that I put something on that, on that reading list

00:56:38.060 - 00:56:54.130

. Annabelle that um that would help with that. I think, I think oh my reference about David Batchelder. He will do that. Yeah. Yeah , he will do that. And you and I

00:56:54.140 - 00:57:05.730

can email afterwards also. Yeah. Well, thank you. And, and I I was thinking about this because I had a worse objective friend who always hated whenever we use any kind of violent language,

00:57:05.740 - 00:57:15.410

like kill two birds with one stone and you know , feed two birds with one stone, right? So I think that uh enough water to bathe, the cat maybe would be a good replacement that could

00:57:15.420 - 00:57:25.010

require a whole bunch of water if you've ever tried to bathe the cat. I assume. So, um join us next week friends. We'll have Doctor Bill Greenway who will be joining us for the conversation

00:57:25.020 - 00:57:37.640

and he'll be presenting on the topic of the passion of to Cora is the passion of Jesus, is the passion of Lint. And so Bill is here with us. And so um Bill, we look

00:57:37.640 - 00:57:45.790

forward to your conversation next week in your presentation. And so we uh we pray you go in peace , friends and again, Doctor Lord. Thank you so much for your time today. Thank you.

00:57:45.800 - 00:57:46.720

Thank you all. It's great to see you.