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I'm excited to welcome um Doctor Leanna Fuller um from Pittsburgh Seminary where uh Reverend Doctor Leanna Fuller is the Joan Marshall, associate Professor of Pastoral Care. She's a graduate of Vanderbilt with her phd and also her

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MD F and she's also a graduate of Furman University in her uh bachelor of Arts. Her most recent book, I'm gonna Hold it up here. Uh We've just been using it in the intro to pastoral

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care class um is called When Christ's Body is broken , anxiety, identity and conflict and congregations. And it is a truly rich book. Um It was published in 2016 with, with and Stock Fuller has

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earned numerous fellowships awards and honors. She was selected to participate in the 2016, 2017 Wabash Center workshop for early career theological school faculty and she received the Louisville Institution dissertation fellowship in 2010, 2011. Her

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most recent conference paper was entitled One Body Many Parts and Eccles Theology for churches in conflict. And that was presented at the A A R. Her ministry experience includes serving as an associate pastor of Oakland Christian

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Church in Suffolk, Virginia where she co-ordinated youth ministry and Christian education programming. Uh Fuller has also worked as chaplain resident at, at Riverside Regional Medical Center in Newport News, providing pastoral care for patients.

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Her family includes her spouse, the Reverend Scott Fuller , a U C C minister and chaplain and their young son, Simon as well. So it's with uh uh joy and gratitude that I welcome Doctor Fuller

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amongst us. I always find um her work to be such a rich exploration um beyond just platitudes or how tos um that uh that litter the field of conflict studies. Um Doctor Fuller is looking deeply at

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the, the meaning of conflict in ways that really stand out to me. I've known her since we started our phd programs in pastoral care around the same time. And I've always found you to be such

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a rich and uh generous conversation partner, Doctor Fuller . So thank you for being with us today. Thank you, Phil um for that really generous and gracious introduction and hey, to everybody who's out there

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. Um Good to see you. I'm going to um minimize my screen a little bit so I can keep track of my notes. Um But I, I did just wanna, before I sort of jump

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into what I have to say today, I did just wanna thank you all again for taking the time to be here. I know this is a topic that is um close to home for many folks and

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I wanna keep that in mind as we go um because I know this isn't just an academic subject, so to speak, but it is something that affects many of us. So I'll just start today by

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saying that um you may have seen from the title of the, of the session today that I have chosen to frame my presentation and our conversation in terms of engaging difference. Since that's something that all of

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us are challenged to do these days in our families , in our workplaces, our neighborhoods and of course our churches. And I think it's especially important to talk about how to engage different in our faith communities

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because those are supposed to be spaces where we can be authentically known in all our fullness. But I think many of us know that that can be really difficult to do even and maybe especially in church and

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to illustrate that I'm just gonna briefly share with you a story from my own pastoral experience. That was actually one of the main reasons I started down this path of researching and writing about conflict in faith communities

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. And I know there are a few students possibly here from Doctor Helsel S class. And um so if you read the book, you may know, may remember some aspects of this story. Um But

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I'll just share it briefly for those who may not have read it. So years ago, when I was serving on a pastoral staff, uh our congregation , which is was a United Church of Christ congregation

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went through a really major intense conflict. It happened to be around issues of human sexuality. But um many congregations go through intense conflicts around other things. But in our case, it was about human sexuality

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. And that's something that folks in a variety of denominations have also experienced. I know, and um the conflict emerged very quickly, it escalated very quickly . And um it really, the, the congregation

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really became polarized uh almost overnight. And that made it really, really hard for us to work with the conflict. And by we, I mean, especially the senior pastor and I, um because we

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just weren't very well equipped for how to handle a conflict of that intensity. And I think we're gonna talk a little bit more about that um Later when , when uh Doctor Hessel and I start having conversation

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. But one of the things that I really took away from that experience that has sort of led me into this work that I've now been doing for more than 10 years is um just an awareness I had

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reflecting back on the experience I had in my congregation that it's, it felt as though um our whole congregation, not just the pastoral stuff, but the parishioners too, that we just didn't have much capacity

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for knowing how to talk to one another about differences that felt really important to us. Um And, you know, you could think of a lot of things that would fall in that category, not just

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theology or politics but other kinds of differences that really feel like they're at the heart of somebody's identity. Um And we just didn't seem to have much skill at doing that. And I think that's part of

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the reason why uh the conflict really became so intense so quickly. So, um after going through that experience in my own congregation where I was a pastoral leader, I really became even more convinced than I

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had probably been before that if we're gonna aspire to be communities where people can bring their whole selves in relationship um with one another as siblings in Christ, it's really important that we learn to engage each other's

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differences with care and respect, not with the aim of changing one another necessarily. Um but simply in order to understand one another better. And um as you saw from the title of our session today,

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I referenced one body, many parts which of course is alluding to First Corinthians 12. Um I've used that little phrase and other um research papers and things that I've given because I think it's so pertinent to

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what we're talking about today. If you think about First Corinthians 12, and the metaphor of the body that Paul uses in that letter, one of the main points of that metaphor is that we need all

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the different parts in order for the body to function properly. And if we were to try to make all the parts be the same, the body is no longer the body that it was intended to be

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. So the way Paul puts it is, you know, if the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? So in a similar way, if we think about the church as Christ's

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body and all of us as representing different parts of that body, any attempt to make us all be the same, whether it's the same in theological perspective , political position, um racial, ethnic identity,

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whatever it would be, any attempt to sort of break down the differences and make us all the same is actually preventing us from being the body that God intended us to be. Um which is not to

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say that we should only talk about differences and never talk about our commonalities. But my experience in churches , we tend to like to do the opposite. We tend to like to talk about the things we

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have in common and sort of gloss over the differences . Um because difference makes us feel uncomfortable. Just to be honest, I'm gonna say more about that in a few minutes. But from my point of

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view, what's really most important is not what our specific differences are necessarily, but how we engage and honor those differences that are among us, we can choose to do it in ways that are life giving

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or we can do it in ways that tear down and cause division and pain and I think a lot of people have experience with that second way of engaging difference, um especially in church. And that's why

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a lot of people end up leaving churches because they see conflict in a faith community as only having that destructive outcome. And so part of what um I'm hoping to do in my work is to try to

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pre present some other kind of vision for how conflict in faith communities could be, how it could be a resource for growth and transformation rather than just something that has to split us apart. But if we

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want to even think beyond our own specific congregations or ministry settings, I also think that in order to minister most effectively to the larger communities of which we're part, we do need to cultivate those skills of

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honoring difference. Because if we're not able to honor the differences that exist within our own faith communities where we've sort of voluntarily chosen to participate. Um And we already share a lot of the same beliefs,

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values and commitments. How would we be able to connect with others who are not already part of our faith community and who may not share those things with us? So, learning to honor difference and engage

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with others in meaningful ways across difference, I think are the keys to building strong lasting relationships. Whether that's with our family members, friends, fellow church members or members of the wider communities in which we

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participate, the longer I've worked on this topic. Um The more I've become convinced that honoring differences is not just a social or relational skill. It's a spiritual capacity. I think that we can learn to

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develop um to put it another way. What I believe about God, I think should have a lot to do with the way I relate to my fellow church member or my neighbor. So, in that

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sense, I think we have a real opportunity in the church to practice honoring the differences among us as a way of embodying our spiritual commitments. If we say we love God, we have to show that

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we love each other even across our differences. Otherwise , the truth is not in us. So as I've said, I think we in the church would do well to start paying attention, more attention to

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honoring the differences in our midst. I think we would do well to start thinking of this as one of the most important spiritual disciplines we can practice together , but it's not easy. Um In fact,

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one of the most challenging aspects of relating to other people is engaging, difference. This is what I was alluding to. Um a little earlier, we know from the discipline of psychology and other social sciences

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, that human beings as a general rule, feel most comfortable when they're with other people who are more or less like them in particular ways. Most of us I think would admit that we enjoy being with

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people who share common interests, values and beliefs. Of course, we know that there are differences between us and the people we care about family members, friends, fellow church members. But most of the

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time, those differences don't feel threatening to us. But sometimes we find ourselves in situations where the differences start to seem more dramatic. Maybe we're interacting with someone who comes from a really different background than we

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do and we have very few shared experiences to draw from. Maybe we're talking with someone we know pretty well, but we suddenly discover a major difference between us about something that feels really important, like religion

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or politics or maybe we're just having a really strong disagreement with someone we know very well and that we love very much and we just can't understand how that person sees something so differently than we do. These

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are all very normal experiences. But the truth is that for most people, these kinds of big important differences make us feel pretty uncomfortable in these kinds of situations. We may start to experience fear, anxiety

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or defensiveness and we may feel compelled to protect our position by arguing a point or trying to convince the other person they're wrong. The problem is that this kind of argumentation, at least in my experience rarely

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helps to draw people together. Uh more often than not, if people are feeling threatened and are acting defensively, the conversation very quickly becomes unproductive and the relationship can even be damaged if it goes on too

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long. So, one of the questions that I feel like we need to wrestle with, as we think about this topic today is how we could imagine engaging differences with another person in a way that reflects

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our spiritual commitments or another way to put it is how could we imagine making this kind of interaction into a spiritual practice? So, one of the most helpful resources I've found in my own thinking about this

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is a book and I'm gonna hold up the book also. It's called um Dignity. It's essential Role in resolving conflict by Donna Hicks. And I want to start by saying, I think it's important to

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say that um Donna Hicks is not a religious or theological writer. She's a psychologist by training and she spent much of her career working in the arena of international conflict resolution. But her basic idea in this

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book is that all conflict in one way or another stems from the violation of someone's dignity and dignity. At least the way Hicks defines it in this book is a birthright. It's something that each one of

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us has by virtue of being human. It's what gives us worth and value. It's what determines that we are deserving of care and attention. So it's not something that we can earn. It is already

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inherent within us. And when that sense of our innate worth and value is violated in some way according to Hicks, we experience a very intense feeling of psychological and emotional threat and we tend to become very

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defensive and even lash out at others. One of the very interesting things that Hicks shares in this book is that psychological threat is experienced in the body exactly the same way as physical threat. So, whatever

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hormones or chemicals are released in your body, if you're being chased by a bear or something like that , um Those are the same things that get released when you feel psychologically or emotionally threatened, which gives

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us a window into why sometimes people react in the way they do in conflicts that feel really important or intense to them. Now, as I've said, Hicks is a psychologist. She's not a theologian,

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but I really believe that her idea of dignity is a fundamental aspect of being human, has deep resonance with how we think about human beings within our Christian tradition. Whereas Hicks tends to talk about dignity as

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our birthright in the church. We would probably talk about it in terms of being made in the image of God. And so part of what I believe we're called to do in our relationships with all other

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Children of God is to find ways to honor their dignity, even if we experience them is very different from ourselves, or even if we disagree really strongly with what they're saying. So then the question to

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ask ourselves is what would it mean to honor another person's dignity, for example, in a conversation where we're hearing someone express views that feel very challenging to our own. Well, Donna Hicks has some very

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particular ways that she talks about this. In her book, she talks about them in terms of the 10 essential elements of dignity given our time limitations. Today, I won't try to walk through each one

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of those. Um I would just recommend the book to you to read in your, in your own time. Um But I will share with you a couple of examples of the essential elements of dignity to

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, to try and give you a sense of what this might look like in practice. So the, the first one that I'm gonna share with you out of this list of 10 is called benefit of the

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doubt. And this is the one that I feel espe is especially useful in the context of conflict or disagreement. And it's really just what the name implies . It just means starting with the premise that others

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have good motives and are acting with integrity. So in a situation of conflict, it means resisting the urge that many of us have to make accusations or assume someone else's motivations and instead trust that the other

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person in the conversation is doing their best. So it's giving somebody the benefit of the doubt. Um Maybe until such time as you have a reason not to, but it's starting from that place of assuming

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good motives on behalf of the other. The second essential element that I'll share with you as an example um is called understanding. And this one goes hand in hand with benefit of the doubt. And again

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, it's something that at first it seems really simple , but it can be hard to do, especially for feeling attacked. So within hicks' framework, understanding involves giving people the chance to explain and express their

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points of view and actively listening in order to understand them. The problem here, as I said, it seems very simple when you just say it like that. But the problem is that most of us

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are not as good at listening as we think we are. So we may need to practice how to listen well, without interrupting, arguing or making a rebuttal. Listening for understanding means we listen in a

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way that should allow us to be able to repeat our conversation partners views back to them in a way that they would recognize. So Hicks gives a very powerful example of a of understanding. In her book

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. She describes a situation where she was asked to consult with a company that was having a lot of issues around gender equity. And she was asked to come in and try to help especially the women in

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that company, um help their voices be heard and try to resolve some of the conflicts that were brewing there. So she describes a situation where a woman was speaking and describing how difficult her experience had been

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in that uh organization and how she had felt really dismissed and ignored by a lot of people uh including her own supervisor. And as she is sort of trying to tell this story, one of her male

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colleagues interrupts and says, oh, I know the person you're talking about and I think you're really misjudging him. And I really think he does care about your perspective. As you can imagine, the woman

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who was interrupted starts to get very defensive and she starts to say things like, are you trying to tell me about my own experience now? You know , and there's, there's really an intense kind of

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emotional thing that starts to happen between them and hicks as the consultant in the room, um chooses that moment to intervene and she's, she asked the two participants if they'd be willing to sort of take a

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step back and let her coach them into um having a dialogue that's more based on her dignity model, um with specific reference to understanding. So they agree . And she coaches the male colleague to start his

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comment over and to say to his, his uh teammate instead of saying, you know, you're wrong or I think you're getting this wrong. He says to her, you know, I think I am

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not understanding what you're saying fully because my experience of that person is really different, but I really want to understand how it is you have had that experience with this person. Can you tell me more?

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So she basically coached him to move from a position of sort of knowing or assuming motives um instead to a place of curiosity and wanting to understand and that completely changed the tenor of the conversation. And the

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female colleague was then able to sort of fully share her story and they were able to get past that and really um come to a place where they could affirm their respect for each other and work together more

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productively. So these are just two examples, benefit of the doubt and understanding um of the essential elements of dignity that Hicks describes in her book. And as you can probably tell, they point to practices

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that all of us would do well, probably to implement in all our relationships, regardless of whether we're talking about disagreements in church or some other aspect of our lives. As I said earlier, these kinds

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of practices can be seen as spiritual disciplines that we could work on together in our faith communities to create more open environments where differences can be held and honored rather than being seen as a threat to our unity

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. So in addition to the spiritual practice of honoring dignity, I think there are some other things that congregations can do to try to engage different in more constructive ways and hopefully avoid those really damaging kinds of

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conflict that we've all heard about in faith. Communities or maybe experienced ourselves. These are suggestions that have more of a communal um rather than a strictly interpersonal dimension. So they may be especially helpful for those

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who are in various positions of leadership within their faith communities. And again, if you have read the book, you'll recognize some of these from the last chapter where I kind of point to some practices for

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um faith communities as they're thinking about engaging difference and conflict in their midst. So the three suggestions are first, acknowledge difference and anxiety. Second, cultivate calm and connected leadership and third provide opportunities for all

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voices to be heard. So I'll just take a minute and say a little bit more about each of those before we move into some more conversation. So when I say acknowledged difference and anxiety, what I

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really mean there is trying to, first of all surface differences that are in the group well before any conflict is brewing or any decision needs to be made . Um And so again, when I say difference

00:22:12.540 - 00:22:25.030

there, I don't just mean theological difference or political or position on a decision. I'm actually referring to any kind of difference you can imagine because as you know, in any group, there's going to be

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lots of those, whether it's um race, ethnicity , culture, background, where we grew up, what kind of school we went to, what kind of profession we do. I mean, these are

00:22:34.870 - 00:22:48.830

all just differences that we have as part of our life stories and we have an expectation that other people's life stories are going to be different. Right? So when we think about um weaving those differences in

00:22:48.950 - 00:23:02.310

to the just normal life of our faith community, you can imagine how we could sit around a table at a fellowship meal or a Bible study or spiritual formation gathering. And we could share aspects of our

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lives that will surface those differences whether or not we're really intentionally doing that or not. But the more that we can do that, I think the more we will build awareness in ourselves and in the group

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that the group is not homogeneous, you know, even though a lot of congregations are pretty homogeneous, racially, um or even sometimes politically these days, there's still a lot of difference within those groups.

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The problem is that if we seem to be homogeneous on one or two dimensions, it can sort of give the inaccurate impression that we're the same on all these other dimensions. And that's one thing that I

00:23:44.320 - 00:23:53.940

saw happening in the church that I served. It seemed as though people thought well, because we're all Christian, because we're all part of the same congregation , we're part of the same denomination. We must

00:23:53.950 - 00:24:03.480

all think the same about these issues. And that just simply wasn't true. And, you know, even though intellectually if you'd asked people, they probably would have admitted. Oh, yeah, I'm sure

00:24:03.490 - 00:24:17.010

, you know, there's difference of opinion here, it was like, emotionally, they didn't know it . And so when these differences surfaced very suddenly, it felt surprising in a bad way to people,

00:24:17.020 - 00:24:26.280

you know, it felt like a shock and they were just caught off guard by it. And I remember one woman saying to me during that whole time of conflict in our church, you know, I

00:24:26.290 - 00:24:36.100

, I've been going to church with so and so for 30 years and I never knew she thought that and I remember thinking, well, that's kind of sad, you know, that you, you've been

00:24:36.110 - 00:24:45.520

going to church with someone for decades and you didn't really know them because you didn't talk about these things that were important. And I know in church we have a tendency to shy away from topics or,

00:24:45.530 - 00:24:56.350

or differences that we experience is controversial. And I'm certainly not saying we should just go around and, you know, try to make people take stands on controversial topics all the time because I, I don't

00:24:56.360 - 00:25:10.490

think that would be helpful either. But if we sort of assume that everybody's gonna check their opinions at the door and not bring them in with them, um, I think that actually contributes to more problems

00:25:10.500 - 00:25:22.820

down the road because then there's an assumption of sameness that just isn't true. So some way of servicing differences throughout the life of the church in all different ways can be really, um, helpful, I

00:25:22.830 - 00:25:33.280

think, because then people don't feel so surprised and they get practice in very low stakes environments just talking about. Oh, you went to school there? Oh, you, you grew up in that area

00:25:33.290 - 00:25:38.430

? Well, I grew up in a totally different , you know, I grew up in the country . I grew up in the city. You know , those things can be talked about in a way

00:25:38.440 - 00:25:49.270

that doesn't feel like there's the pressure of having to make some kind of decision or, you know, take a stand on a really important issue. It's just a matter of engaging um the things that make

00:25:49.280 - 00:25:59.340

somebody else unique, you know, which is something that most of us do all the time. Um But maybe we just don't practice it as often in church as we could. And then as far as

00:25:59.350 - 00:26:10.520

acknowledging anxiety, this is just kind of a suggestion especially for leaders. Um whether they are, you know, the pastoral leader or other leaders in a group or congregation is to just when, when you

00:26:10.530 - 00:26:22.350

see tension building or you sense that there's anxiety swirling , it can be really helpful just to name that rather than pretending that nothing is going on. But it can actually be really a transparent way of leading

00:26:22.360 - 00:26:33.190

to say, you know, I I can sense that people are nervous about this or that there's tension building around this particular issue. And I want you to know I'm paying attention to that and we're going

00:26:33.200 - 00:26:41.250

to find ways to talk about it. You know , these are ways of kind of like having release valves, you know, for the anxiety or the tension. So that doesn't build to such a point

00:26:41.260 - 00:26:55.510

where it explodes. Um I guess that's how I would put it. The second suggestion I mentioned a minute ago is cultivating calm and connected leadership. And when I say leadership there, I really mean that

00:26:55.520 - 00:27:06.690

in a very broad sense, I don't just mean people who hold, you know, official titles or offices, people who serve on session, those are certainly all leaders in a faith community, but leaders

00:27:06.700 - 00:27:21.720

can be anyone in a group who are able to come in with a lower level of anxiety. Um a higher level of kind of grounded or centeredness, calmness um who are able to stay connected in a

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meaningful way with others in the group, even when they disagree right now, you all on this call can probably think of someone, you know, uh who fits that description, right? Somebody who,

00:27:32.410 - 00:27:40.340

when they walk in the room, everybody kind of takes a deep breath and says, oh good, you know, so and so's here like we know that there will be this calming presence here in the

00:27:40.350 - 00:27:52.740

room. Um That's what I would hope for, for most of us who aspire to be leaders in whatever respect in our communities. Um And that doesn't mean that we don't have anxiety inside. We're all

00:27:52.750 - 00:28:07.280

gonna feel nervous or tense inside when we're dealing with a situation of stress or crisis or conflict. Um But it is possible I think to, to feel that inside and to not necessarily spread it to everybody

00:28:07.290 - 00:28:17.360

else. Uh One of my professors in graduate school said you can have your feelings without your feelings, having you. And I think that's a very helpful way of thinking about it is that I can experience

00:28:17.370 - 00:28:27.690

what's happening in me um as a clue as to what may be happening in the rest of the group . As I said, you know, acknowledging the anxiety, but not necessarily using that as a way

00:28:27.700 - 00:28:41.440

to sort of work everyone up or get things going to an emotionally intense place rather as a way of being transparent and saying, OK, let's, you know, let's engage what's happening here. Um So

00:28:41.450 - 00:28:53.150

, you know, basically this is the leader or leaders in a group who can bring their own calmness to a situation rather than telling other people to be calm, which pretty much never works, right?

00:28:53.540 - 00:29:04.580

So it's, it's bringing that presence, that sense of roundedness um to a situation. And of course , that's not something we can just develop overnight necessarily . I think that takes um a lot of internal

00:29:04.590 - 00:29:17.240

work for most of us um to build those capacities and skills. But if you are someone who is in a prominent leader, leadership position in an organization or a congregation, you can look for those people

00:29:17.260 - 00:29:30.550

and build that network and help them um or invite them to join you in this work of, of helping the group to function better. And then my last um suggestion for, for leaders is to provide

00:29:30.560 - 00:29:45.000

opportunities for all voices to be heard. Um My experience in congregations especially is that when we have something big to decide or to discuss, we tend to have a large group meeting. Um And by large

00:29:45.010 - 00:29:56.210

, I mean, anything more than like 10 people , right? But like the whole group meets together , we have some people talk to each side of the issue and then we have a vote, sort

00:29:56.220 - 00:30:03.780

of like a school board meeting or something like that . Um And it's not that, that in and of itself is bad. I think there are some issues that we can deal with very effectively that way

00:30:04.130 - 00:30:15.990

. But when the issues are really, really important to people and they have a, a large emotional impact, um I find that this actually can do more harm than good. Um First of all,

00:30:15.000 - 00:30:26.700

because in a larger group and again, anything over like maybe eight people, there are some people who just simply will never speak out loud in a group that's large, they just don't feel comfortable speaking publicly

00:30:26.950 - 00:30:38.220

. Therefore, you are automatically reducing the number of people that you're gonna hear from. Similarly, in a large group situation like that, you tend to hear most from the people who are kind of at

00:30:38.230 - 00:30:49.310

the edges of of each end of the spectrum, right? Who feel most passionately on either side. So you end up not hearing from that large middle group and you get a, a skewed sense of

00:30:49.320 - 00:31:00.900

what the group's feeling really is. Um And then , you know, as far as a vote, well, votes create winners and losers. And again , if it's something really important to people and they

00:31:00.910 - 00:31:12.960

feel that they lost that vote, um sometimes they , they just feel like they can't stay in the community. It's, it was too high stakes for them or they feel they've lost face um by speaking

00:31:12.970 - 00:31:25.790

passionately about something that then wasn't, uh you know , didn't go in their favor. So in that respect it, it's harmful to the group because it kind of automatically splits the group. Um So my

00:31:25.800 - 00:31:37.420

feeling is that for a really important issue, the more important it is, the longer you should probably take to engage it and you should probably find ways to provide multiple opportunities for people to have their voice

00:31:37.430 - 00:31:47.300

heard most of the time. That's probably going to be some kind of a small group process where people can speak in a small group of peers. Um You know, you can always have somebody take some

00:31:47.310 - 00:31:57.580

notes that are not necessarily uh attached to names so that you can get a good sense of what is being said in all the different groups. Um And then, I mean, I think, ideally you

00:31:57.590 - 00:32:08.020

might like to try to have a process of communal discernment rather than a vote. I know in some cases, maybe you still need to have a vote . But there's actually good social science research on this

00:32:08.030 - 00:32:21.860

that if people feel that they got a chance to say their viewpoint and that it was heard and taken seriously, they're much more willing to support whatever the group's decision is, even if it's not what they

00:32:21.870 - 00:32:30.100

themselves would have chosen. So I think the mistake we often make in churches is we rush to a vote because we think, well, that will dispel the anxiety because we'll have made a decision and it'll

00:32:30.110 - 00:32:44.180

be over. But often the opposite is true because it just builds anxiety for people to feel like I didn't get a chance to have my say and now the decisions made and what do I do? So

00:32:44.190 - 00:32:53.130

, um so that's just kind of my suggestion. There is providing those opportunities as much as possible. Obviously, judgments have to be made. If it's , if it's a relatively unimportant decision, probably you

00:32:53.140 - 00:33:04.900

don't need to have all these complicated small group processes , right? But if it's something really important like whether or not to stay in your denomination um or something like that, you probably should have a longer

00:33:04.910 - 00:33:15.160

process to give uh more time for the discernment to take place. And I always feel like I need to add when I say letting all voices be heard . Um That is not the same thing as letting

00:33:15.170 - 00:33:29.160

people bully each other. Um Sometimes I think people will say you're not hearing me and what they actually mean is you're not giving me my way or doing what I want. And those are not the same

00:33:29.170 - 00:33:43.480

thing. So sometimes it may be important for communities ideally before a conflict erupts to establish guidelines and expectations for how they're gonna be together. Um in terms of their communication, their behaviors, you know,

00:33:43.490 - 00:33:53.010

what's acceptable, what's not acceptable. And as I said, ideally that would happen in a time of calm where you're not dealing with a conflict or a big decision. Um And then you can just plainly

00:33:53.020 - 00:34:02.100

say, you know, these are the expectations we have for one another um in our, in our community and then hold each other accountable to those. I know that's really easy to say and hard to

00:34:02.110 - 00:34:14.840

do. But I think, um I think in the church, we could do a lot better with that. Um I think we, we have a reticence often in congregations to um set limits on each

00:34:14.850 - 00:34:27.540

other when it comes to behaviors or ways of speaking that are destructive. And I, I think that's a place we can really grow. So I'm going to stop there. I feel like I've said plenty

00:34:28.690 - 00:34:38.400

. Um And I will ask Doctor Hessel to jump in with whatever questions he has. Great, wonderful . Um Thank you so much, Doctor Fuller. And I felt like a, a sense of hope

00:34:38.410 - 00:34:49.380

as you were talking. And I also felt really like the theological grounds of what you were doing and why it matters so much. Um I might just start with the intro question already. I see some

00:34:49.390 - 00:35:00.260

questions populating the chat. Um So uh looks like we're gonna have some conversation. How can you? So, um this is a question I kind of had after reading your book and now you have like

00:35:00.270 - 00:35:15.630

a conflict like expertise center that you work with now to Pittsburgh. So I was just wondering like, how do you help everyday, like pastors um who kind of have average pastoral care training, maybe distinguish

00:35:15.640 - 00:35:29.700

from healthy conflict that they can help with um from something that kind of really requires outside help or outside intervention. So, um one of the, the ways that I think about this is in terms of

00:35:29.710 - 00:35:38.700

emotional intensity. So there was a writer named Speed Lee L E A s. Um he wrote a lot in the sort of eighties and nineties for the Auburn Institute was kind of a, you know,

00:35:38.710 - 00:35:51.910

church leadership, church conflict guy. And he and some of his writings has this little diagram of a pyramid where it shows the different levels of kind of intensity of conflict. He divides them into five levels

00:35:51.920 - 00:36:02.270

. And the first two, he describes as a problem to solve or a disagreement, you know, and those sound like, you know, pretty common scenarios we can think of in our congregations, we

00:36:02.280 - 00:36:12.680

, we have a problem we need to solve together or maybe it's, it's risen to the level of a disagreement where people have taken different positions. His theory was that if you're at those one of those

00:36:12.690 - 00:36:23.650

two levels, most pastoral leaders can deal with that , ok, on their own, it's when you kind of move up the ladder one more rung to what he calls contest or another way of thinking about

00:36:23.660 - 00:36:35.910

this is when there's a shift from, we're all trying to work together to solve a problem or to sort out a disagreement to, I want my side to win. Like that shift in emotional intensity is

00:36:35.920 - 00:36:49.140

where he says leaders ought to be thinking about maybe getting some support. Um And then, you know , once it moves up even higher where there is , you know, just really a lot of um

00:36:49.740 - 00:37:00.640

intense behavior and communication and things like that, like , clearly those are times when most people are not going to be equipped. I think that looking back on my own experience, part of what was so

00:37:00.650 - 00:37:10.840

hard is it went so quickly from one to like four, you know. Um And we just weren't as leaders ready uh to deal with that. And that is one thing I wish we had done is

00:37:10.850 - 00:37:22.840

is gotten some kind of consultation with, with someone . Um you know, depending what your tradition or your particular situation is, it might be judicatory leaders that could come in. I know some de denominations

00:37:22.850 - 00:37:34.630

have, you know, teams and their local Presbyteries or whatever that can help or there are conflict, um, transformation centers of various kinds that provide consulting . Um, and I realized that's, that's a

00:37:34.640 - 00:37:45.020

big ask in certain ways too because those kinds of things take money and things like that. Um, but I think just any time you see sort of these signs of emotional intensity or the group starting to

00:37:45.030 - 00:37:58.440

split and that, you know, you can sort of see that starting to happen when um the positions taken are more strident. Um People start personalizing the issue, you know, like if this person would

00:37:58.450 - 00:38:09.550

just leave, everything would be fine or um everything is like in an US, them kind of way of talking, um you know, vague assertions about , you know, they always do this, you

00:38:09.560 - 00:38:22.640

always do that. You know, these are all kind of tell tale signs that the group is starting to split and those are usually warnings. I think that people need to perhaps be thinking about getting some

00:38:22.650 - 00:38:37.240

assistance. Um The other thing I would say is that if the conflict itself is centered on the pastoral leader, that may also be to look for some support because um even in the situation that, that

00:38:37.250 - 00:38:49.040

I went through the, the conflict was not really about me and the other pastoral leader, but it was about the vote ended up being about denominational membership and we did not feel we could take a neutral

00:38:49.050 - 00:39:01.250

position on that. Um because that was the denomination we were ordained with. So some people experienced that as us, you know, trying to control the outcome of the conflict. So I think there's times

00:39:01.260 - 00:39:12.830

when leaders have to say, OK, maybe I can't be seen as a neutral facilitator here. Um And I need to get some outside support that's really helpful. Thank you, Doctor Fuller. And that

00:39:12.840 - 00:39:32.470

actually kind of leads to the, the first question from the chat. Well, I would say um communal discernment uh itself is probably not my specialty. I mean, I feel like I um know more

00:39:32.480 - 00:39:45.500

about kind of the um sort of the precursors to that. Um However, I do have colleagues on the faculty at Pittsburgh Theological Seminary who would do a lot of this work, particularly with context of missional

00:39:45.510 - 00:39:59.460

leadership and communal discernment. Um So, uh Professor Scott Hagley, Professor Roger Owens are both people who um do a lot of work with this. But I will just say from a general perspective about communal

00:39:59.470 - 00:40:09.700

discernment, this is not a specific strategy or method , which as I know is what you're asking about . But I do think just from a general perspective , I have seen ways in which just the intentionality

00:40:09.710 - 00:40:25.530

of a process and the willingness to give it time and to um to place it within a framework of spiritual commitment. Um and, and values really helps the discernment process. That's my observation. So in

00:40:25.540 - 00:40:35.280

my book, I tell the story of another church , not the one that I pastored a different one that was trying to make a decision about worship services , which on the surface seems like it shouldn't be

00:40:35.290 - 00:40:45.010

that big of a deal to decide to go from three services to two. But it was, it was a big deal for all kinds of reasons that I tried to, to describe in the book and

00:40:45.020 - 00:40:57.020

the pastors there, I thought very wisely um resisted the urge to just sort of make a, a unilateral decision based on how many people were attending each one. They, they, you know, sort

00:40:57.030 - 00:41:08.820

of had this sense that doing that would be problematic for reasons. So they instead sort of built this intentional process where they had representatives from each of the services, they took their time, they opened every

00:41:08.830 - 00:41:23.780

meeting with prayer. Um And, you know, sort of reflection on scripture, they did a lot of um processes where they made sure that people could have their voices heard fully without being interrupted. Um

00:41:24.080 - 00:41:35.590

They use a specific method called functional sub grouping, which I describe in the book actually comes out of group therapy. But it's where people who already agree with each other are allowed to speak to one another

00:41:35.600 - 00:41:45.940

about their position and everyone who has a different position , just listens on the outside. Um And this is a really good way to get all of the ideas in the room without people trying to sort of

00:41:45.060 - 00:41:58.020

argue or, you know, convince each other. But they did that process over a period of months and at the end, they sort of came to a decision consensually that truly, I don't think they

00:41:58.030 - 00:42:07.410

ever would have come to before. Um And I , you know, partly I think that was probably the movement of the Holy Spirit, But I think it was also because they use this longer discernment process

00:42:07.430 - 00:42:19.540

where they did not automatically assume the outcome, you know, and they gave everybody an opportunity to speak into it. So that's kind of what I was saying before about um the opportunity for all voices to

00:42:19.550 - 00:42:30.290

be heard that particular church, I think did that really well. And so in the end, I think there were probably still some people who left over the decision, but it probably a lot fewer than

00:42:30.300 - 00:42:39.600

would have otherwise. And I interviewed people from that church for my book. And there were more than one of them said to me, you know, this wasn't really the outcome that I would have picked

00:42:39.980 - 00:42:52.420

if it were up to me alone. But because I really felt like my views were considered, um And I saw how, how the process had such integrity, I was willing to support it. So

00:42:52.820 - 00:43:10.370

, um I think just from a general point of view that, that way of walking through a process of discernment with time and intentionality and spiritual discipline. Uh, I think helps a lot. That's a

00:43:10.380 - 00:43:21.930

really good question. I'm not sure if I've ever thought about it, sort of in terms of like temperament like that. Um, I think sometimes it may depend on what your goal is. So,

00:43:21.940 - 00:43:31.360

you know, if it's really about just kind of mixing people up and getting them to talk to different folks that they may not normally, you know, see, you might do it that way in terms

00:43:31.370 - 00:43:42.080

of, you know, not putting everybody from the same Sunday school class or the choir together, but trying to mix them around. If you're talking about something that's a little bit more um heated, you

00:43:42.090 - 00:43:51.300

know, that has a little bit more emotional violence or intensity. I think part of that is knowing your community and knowing like, will it, will it be a good idea to start with putting people

00:43:51.310 - 00:44:00.580

with different perspectives in a group together or might it be better to do more like a functional subgroup kind of approach where you already, you ask people to kind of self identify with a position and then put

00:44:00.590 - 00:44:10.530

them in groups together? That's actually what the Methodist church I wrote about. Did they first let people who already agree with each other, talk to each other separately in their own groups and then they brought

00:44:10.540 - 00:44:21.330

them out and had them talk to each other in a public way with others listening and then later they mixed up the groups. So that would be one way to do that. I do think when there

00:44:21.340 - 00:44:35.960

are um issues that are more intense um or potentially controversial, it's really a great idea to have a facilitator um in groups that are kind of assigned to help moderate the discussion. And, you know,

00:44:35.970 - 00:44:45.240

again, you'd probably want to give a little bit of training to those people to talk with them about , you know, how to listen well, and how to help manage a group and things like that

00:44:45.550 - 00:44:53.350

. Um, because I do think sometimes that's where some of our attempts at conversation go awry. Um even the larger meetings that we have, I think back to some of the ones we had at my

00:44:53.360 - 00:45:04.400

own church and we were going through the conflict and looking back and thinking, oh man, we, we really did not set that up for success because we did not think through, you know, um

00:45:05.230 - 00:45:14.930

how people were gonna be chosen to speak or how long they would get to speak or what kinds of comments we would allow. I mean, you know , we just didn't think through any of that.

00:45:14.940 - 00:45:23.260

So I think with any small group process, it's really good to think about, you know, what's the goal? And that would probably help guide um your decision about who to put together or whether you

00:45:23.270 - 00:45:36.660

would just let people self select really good question. And I do think that um there are even churches in the US that, that are kind of like this too, like the church that I served was

00:45:36.670 - 00:45:45.820

a little bit like this in the sense that a lot of people in the church were related to each other. But I think in certain cultures um in cer certain context, this is even more true and

00:45:45.830 - 00:45:57.300

it does make things more complicated, I think for the pastoral leader because they're trying to um manage the dynamics in the church while knowing that some of the conflicts or some of the things that are happening are

00:45:57.310 - 00:46:09.070

actually really taking place outside of the church building, right? And they're being, as you said, brought in, I think that the general um principle that I think of there is from family systems theory

00:46:09.080 - 00:46:22.070

, which is to say that the leader in any group, whether it's a congregation, a school or a family, um whoever is kind of trying to , to be a leader and help affect the system

00:46:22.080 - 00:46:37.410

positively has to try to stay connected with all the different parts of the system um without getting too drawn in to any one part of the systems um issues . So I can see how when there's family conflicts

00:46:37.420 - 00:46:45.450

, it would be very easy to kind of get drawn to one side or the other or you know , you're taking so and so's side or you're taking so and so's side and as a pastoral leader,

00:46:45.460 - 00:46:58.540

it can be very easy to do that because um sometimes certain people in those family systems have a lot of power in the congregation and it could be very easy to try to placate somebody. Um So I

00:46:58.550 - 00:47:10.600

think the challenge for the leader is to try to stay rooted in their own values and principles and take their positions that they think are right while also staying connected to the other people in the system. Um

00:47:10.610 - 00:47:21.410

Even though they may disagree, even though they may not, you know, um be do you may not be doing everything as the leader that the person wants. Um That's, I think one of the

00:47:21.420 - 00:47:34.520

major challenges for leaders everywhere is to understand how to , to be myself fully and to take the positions I think are right to do what I think is right as a leader and to stay connected without sort

00:47:34.530 - 00:47:45.010

of getting drawn in to these other conflicts that may really have nothing to do with me as a leader . Like as you're saying, they're really about stuff going on in the family. So one thing the

00:47:45.020 - 00:47:59.100

leader can do in those circumstances is try to gently um lead people back to the source of their conflict , right? To say, well, it sounds like that disagreement is really with, you know,

00:47:59.110 - 00:48:12.160

your uncle or is really with your sister. And how about we think together about how you could talk to them about that or work on that together. Um rather than, you know, being the person

00:48:12.170 - 00:48:22.040

that, ok, I'm the pastor. Now I have to go try to solve this problem between these two other people. Uh, which usually doesn't work very well because most of the time we can't affect

00:48:22.050 - 00:48:35.400

two other people's relationship with each other. You know , we can only affect our relationship with each of those people. Um, but working with our, on our relationship to each party in the conflict is

00:48:35.410 - 00:48:44.970

usually the best way to go. Um Because then we don't get cast into, well, you're on that side or you're on this side. But instead we say no, I'm, I'm the pastor to

00:48:44.980 - 00:48:54.650

everybody. I'm connected to each person in this system . I don't know if that helps. I know it's very complicated if somebody came to me and was like, hey, can you as the pastor,

00:48:54.770 - 00:49:05.360

you know, go talk to my uncle slash, you know, relatives slash whoever and solve this problem for me, basically, which is sometimes what happens to us as leaders, you know, we get

00:49:05.370 - 00:49:16.320

drawn into someone else's conflict. I think I would want to say something like, let's think together about how you could talk to that person. You know , and I mean, depending on your relationship,

00:49:16.330 - 00:49:27.920

you might even offer to go with them um for support, but that's very different from, hey, you go talk to this person so that I don't have to do it. Right. That's kind of

00:49:27.930 - 00:49:39.510

what I was getting at. Well, people have mentioned in the chat, Peter Stinky's work and uh one person said, um and this could be the kind of the last comment slash question from the group

00:49:39.520 - 00:49:50.990

. And now I'll, I'll have one more for you too regarding the need to take time and frame significant conversations as with spiritual practice. How do you build support for this approach? My experience is that

00:49:51.000 - 00:50:00.530

folks can agree to this approach. Um But when it gets down to implementation, they will want to shortcut this process and move to resolution. Yeah, that's a really, really good point. And it

00:50:00.540 - 00:50:17.670

, it is a very hard thing to hold intention because the thing is from my perspective, whenever the issue um is one that creates more emotion, emotional intensity and anxiety is high. That same anxiety and

00:50:17.680 - 00:50:29.530

pressure is going to want make people want to resolve it quickly. So it's like so the very same thing that, that I think means you should take longer to make a decision is the same thing that's

00:50:29.540 - 00:50:40.450

gonna make people wanna do it more quickly. So I don't think there's any magic formula for this. Um I, I think it may partly be a culture change thing that, which could take a long

00:50:40.460 - 00:50:53.060

time to develop, but it could be a matter of opening conversations well, in advance of any particular conflict, you know, during a period of peace or calm in the in the organization or the congregation

00:50:53.360 - 00:51:06.620

to say let's reflect together on how we make decisions here. And, you know, I've been thinking about how sometimes one way of making decision may be really effective, but it may not be for something

00:51:06.630 - 00:51:15.420

else that we may face in the future that's really tricky or intense. And so let's think together about how we might want to do that. What are the kinds of things that we would want to take

00:51:15.430 - 00:51:24.520

more time with? Um And that might actually get people kind of their wheels turning in a time when they're not feeling threatened or activated to kind of ponder like. Ok. Yeah, that makes sense.

00:51:24.530 - 00:51:34.740

Now, it doesn't mean that even if they all , as you say, agree to it in theory that when you get to it, they might not still resist. But I do think maybe planting the

00:51:34.750 - 00:51:46.110

seeds and kind of nurturing that or maybe modeling some small examples of how to do it um to take a little bit longer process with something, maybe not months, but, you know, a few weeks

00:51:46.120 - 00:51:57.350

or something and modeling, ok, let's reflect together on scripture and, you know, pray over this , you know, for a few weeks together and make a decision that might model something that could kind

00:51:57.360 - 00:52:07.180

of take root. Um I think part of the , you know, the pandemic revealed how for, for many of this, we, we didn't have those skills because when we needed to make decisions,

00:52:07.820 - 00:52:17.140

people were like, what do we do, we , we're not used to having to do this um without, you know, these other frameworks in place . And I think it might make it easier for

00:52:17.150 - 00:52:28.400

when we do have to make decisions a little more quickly to have some of that grounded us and that relational built up over time. But I still think the leaders are gonna have to be prepared even if

00:52:28.410 - 00:52:39.310

everybody has said, yeah, we'll never make a big decision, you know, overnight. Um without taking the time we need uh probably some people still will want to and, but that could maybe be

00:52:39.320 - 00:52:50.320

a part of the conversation too to say, hey , you know, here's the pros and cons of doing that. And let's really think this through together . Thank you so much, Doctor Fuller. I

00:52:50.330 - 00:53:01.160

just love um your rich eccles theology. You show that this is not just an optional task, but it has to do with our very nature as a church and you show um through your use of dignity

00:53:01.170 - 00:53:10.210

just what's at stake as we relate to one another . I think it's so easy in the conflict process to forget some of this. I was wondering at the end if you could give us a kind of

00:53:10.880 - 00:53:21.450

like, I don't know either. What are some practices for self care if you find yourself in the season of conflict? I know some people on the call are kind of currently in the middle of a

00:53:21.460 - 00:53:31.410

lot of conflict at their churches or, like, just kind of blessing for if conflict is, or has been tender for people in this group in the past. What would you kind of, what would

00:53:31.420 - 00:53:43.020

you want to say to them in closing? Yeah . So I'll start with the self care piece. I, I think, um, just generally speaking , whatever self care practices are helpful to you.

00:53:43.030 - 00:53:52.740

I would certainly continue doing those if you're in a season of conflict, but you may find that you need to do them with more intentionality or more frequency than you ordinarily would um just as any time of

00:53:52.750 - 00:54:04.110

heightened stress or anxiety and I think conflict falls into that. Um So when you're dealing with a conflict , especially an intense one, I would think it's , it can be an especially important time to seek

00:54:04.120 - 00:54:19.680

out professional support, whether that is counseling or therapy , spiritual direction, um coaching um as well as maybe more informal um professional supports, like um connecting with a mentor or colleagues um who can kind of

00:54:19.690 - 00:54:28.740

support you in your ministry and help, help you see, you know, where you're doing well and maybe even help you see some, some places you could grow. Um that could be a useful thing

00:54:28.750 - 00:54:38.920

to do. Um I think when you're going through a period of conflict, especially an intense one, it can feel very consuming. And so a good part of self care might be during a season like

00:54:38.930 - 00:54:52.640

that to find things you enjoy doing that have nothing to do with work, you know, where you're completely disconnected from your professional obligations. And I realize that can be hard for pastors. But, um

00:54:52.000 - 00:55:02.650

, I think it's really important to have spaces that are, um, life giving and, and fulfilling that are not related to our professional identity. Um , especially if you're in a situation where you feel

00:55:02.660 - 00:55:15.970

like you're professional, um, position could be threatened or you could lose your job. Um That's a very stressful place to be obviously, but all of us are more than our job. You know,

00:55:15.980 - 00:55:28.820

we're all people apart from our, any particular job . So I think nurturing that um those interests, those creative outlets. Um And then setting appropriate boundaries , of course, I think is a really important

00:55:28.830 - 00:55:37.270

part of self care, whether it's just boundaries on your space and time, um, boundaries on how you will allow people to speak to you or not . I mean, that goes back to the sort

00:55:37.280 - 00:55:50.450

of behavioral expectations piece we were talking about earlier. Um All those kinds of things to me fall under the rubric of self care because they're a way of protecting oneself. Um And, and giving oneself space

00:55:50.460 - 00:55:59.210

maybe is a better way of saying it to, to live fully into, you know, our, our whole selves, our best selves and of course , spiritual practices, you know, whatever spiritual practices

00:55:59.220 - 00:56:09.820

you have to sustain you, you maybe need to rely on those even more. Um whether that's prayer , um meditation, you know, Lexia Davina kind of scriptural reflection practices. Um perhaps talking with others

00:56:09.830 - 00:56:23.230

about scripture or about your spiritual life. Um And I think many times people who are religious leaders need to do those things in spaces other than their own ministry setting. Um because being in charge of things

00:56:23.240 - 00:56:35.340

is not really quite the same as being a participant . So maybe finding a midday um or midweek, you know, midday uh to a service at a church down the street where you can just go and

00:56:35.350 - 00:56:45.700

be a participant or a Bible study in the community that you could be a participant rather than always having to lead. I think those are all things that could be helpful. And as far as a blessing

00:56:45.710 - 00:56:53.720

, I would just say, I think, you know, conflict is a really normal part of life . Um It doesn't mean that you have failed as a leader if your Turk is in conflict. In

00:56:53.730 - 00:57:05.490

fact, um even if the conflict is really intense and damaging, more than likely the dynamics for that were set up long before you came there. So , um it, it really often has very little

00:57:05.500 - 00:57:17.320

to do with any one person or any one decision that's been made. But there's, it's more about systemic dynamics and every leader is gonna have to decide um you know, whether or not they're able to

00:57:17.330 - 00:57:28.800

address those dynamics in their current situation or not. And sometimes I think the discernment the leader has to make is about whether to stay and of course, that's, that's painful. Um, but it can

00:57:28.810 - 00:57:39.460

be a really important life giving decision for oneself. Um, I would like to think that most of the time conflicts can be addressed without having to, to go that far. Right. Um, but

00:57:39.470 - 00:57:50.060

I do think, you know, conflict in itself is not bad and it can be a real opportunity for growth for the group uh if it's handled well , and if we develop a culture that, that

00:57:50.070 - 00:57:59.920

doesn't see it as threatening or something to be feared . So I guess that's the last thing I would say. Ok, wonderful. Thank you so much , Doctor Fuller. I've really appreciated you being with

00:57:59.930 - 00:58:10.660

us today and I sense that your pro uh topic is so timely and um I can sense also from people's participation, it's been meaningful for them as well . So we're deeply grateful for you and for the

00:58:10.680 - 00:58:22.090

ways that we've experienced the fruits of the spirit through your work today. So, um I, I'm really grateful for your ministry and conflict work and conflict studies. It can't be easy um Being all the

00:58:22.160 - 00:58:27.590

time. So, thank you so much to us . It's been wonderful to be here. Thank you