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Very excited today to have this conversation between Reverend Doctor Philip Hussle, who is our associate professor and the Nancy Taylor Williamson, distinguished Chair in Pastoral Care at Austin Seminary and Reverend Doctor Esteban Montilla and Doctor Hessel

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will be introducing him. We're gonna be talking about um pastoral care of Latinos and Latinas. Um Today , this is part of our Conversations and Well Being series, which is funded by a grant from the

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Spirituality Mind Body Institute at Columbia Teachers College. So it's wonderful to be here with you all today, Dr Hessel. Thank you so much Erica and thanks for your work setting this all up. Um I'm

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so delighted to see uh to have Doctor R Esteban Montilla with us today. Um He is uh associate professor of counseling and coordinator of counseling internships at the s at Saint Mary's University and also a bilingual counselor

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and pastoral educator at the ecumenical Center of um for Relig for education, counseling and health. Um Doctor Montilla is a Latino American theologian and psychotherapist known for his ability to integrate science and religion. His research

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interests involve aging palliative care, neuroscience of psychology and religion, human personality and inter culturalism. He's written extent on counseling, older adults, the integration of psychotherapy and spirituality, family therapy, pastoral counseling and

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post colonial counseling. His book um Pastoral care and Counseling with Latinos and Latinas is used here at Austin Seminary in the introduction to pastoral care class. Um He is one of the pioneers in the hospice movement

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and counseling profession in several Latin American countries including um beginning uh doctoral programs in Mexico, Nicaragua and Venezuela . Well, as you can see, it's such a delight to have him with us today. And

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I remember first um meeting Doctor Montilla when he came uh to give a lecture in, in uh one of the E B W programs and he spoke in Spanish about uh say the topic of sexuality. Um

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And I got again a, a chance to work with Doctor Montilla as we uh did this grant together in San Antonio um over this past year. So I'm so excited to see you and uh welcome to

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you. I'm looking forward to your presentation today and I'm glad that everyone is able to be here, who can be here as well. Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity. And that um more

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than a presentation, I would like to consider this a conversation, uh a dialogue. And uh so as I'm kind of sharing with you some of the thought, what do we mean by pastoral care and

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pastoral counseling with Latinos? And um and how we see it from a uh post post colonial perspective that um is that OK to have that kind of conversation ? Is that what you uh yes, that sounds

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wonderful, Doctor Montilla. Great. And, and we can converse, we can converse and then we can open it up to questions later on. I'm sure people will be eager to ask questions as well

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. So, OK. Yeah. So I'll say a few things about uh how we approach this concept of, of, of pastoral care and counseling from uh a post colonial perspective. And as you know

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, so we as uh we have a Latino community in the US that is keep growing and growing and that now we are approaching the 70 million people. So whatever you are in every single state in the

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US, you will find Latino in your church. Uh These Latinos come from many different countries and some uh actually born in the US with this uh uh Hispanic um heritage. So if you are a pastor

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, most likely you will have some members that will be connected in one way or another to the Latino community. So it's a, it's a very, we use the word intercultural experience. So not,

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not much multicultural, but intercultural and the intercultural movement have taken over. I will say the multicultural movement in the sense that this um is not about just integrating and he is one of the tenants of the

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church that the church need to be Catholic and with a lower C, not A, not AAA capital C and the word Catholics mean inclusive, not universal because we can be in every part and be highly

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no uh exclusive E E E excluding people excluding people . So the church was meant meant to be one , the the church was meant to be holy. I mean, you know, separated for a specific

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purpose to be apostolic in the sense that to follow the teachings of Jesus and to be Catholic and that means that everybody is included. So as we look for, for instance, baptism, I've never been

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practiced before. So is the production of this movement that eventually was called Christianity? Because this initiation uh uh symbol was it possible to be done by men and women? The other one was only men because

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circus conversation was only for males or whoever has a penis. So baptism was already uh nobody before that I've ever practiced that you might say there were some bait people bathing before reading the Bible or praying,

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but not as a demonstration. This is what you need to do in order to belong to this group . So anyone, it doesn't matter, it's a man or a woman or intersect like the case on

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the book of Acts chapter eight, when we have an intersex that actually also said, you know, uh uh can I, can I be baptized? So beginning there, the idea is that if we

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want to be a church in that perspective, we need to include everybody. So the word intercultural doesn't only consider uh people to be part of the circle . But the people in the circle can actually take

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an active part and, and also become leaders. So it's not like the ghetto mentality. Here is the uh uh we everybody is inside the circle, but inside the circle, there's more circle, the

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only the people um that actually a dominant group might have access to power. So the intercultural movement is an invitation to see that the power is distribute based on the merit, not based on nationality or not

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based on, on any uh privilege. So uh in, in this concept, then the I'm talking about the intercultural movement uh is about inclusion, not just integration. That uh so that would be one

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of the main uh main tenet of the post colonial perspective on pastor occurring cancer. You can apply the same thing for even if you're not from the Christian faith, if you come from a different, a

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different group. Another element beside the intercultural, this , this word pastor is it is, is a metaphor. So, and we use metaphor to convey meaning and because we don't want just to be too

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, too realistic. So we use metaphor. Uh No, no one is really a pastor. Pastor is a uh a man and a woman to take care of animals. So this is a metaphor from

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, from farming. And that uh it was an interesting one because farming was a uh uh when you talk about agriculture in livestock, the, the farming that was connected to livestock was seen as more important

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than the farming connected to agriculture. And you can see in the narrative of Genesis chapter three of, you know, Cain and Abel Cain represented the agricultural farmers, the one who produce uh cereals or uh

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fruit and the livestock representing uh uh you know, a able so the people that were seeing, working with animals were seeing more important in society. So this metaphor. So no, no one is ordained

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to be a pastor because you cannot be ordained to be a pastor. You're ordained to be a minister , either uh a deacon, a elder bishop, first bor but you cannot be ordained to be a

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pastor. Pastor is a function because once again, it's a metaphor and metaphors are not reality. So , and what a what a pastor does is number one is to protect and this is an important function

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of pastor care in the Latino community. The these ideas protection, it is, is central and protecting from predator from people who want to take advantage of our group. This is key. That's why in

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, in when we talk about the function of pastoral care within the Latino community, some is about resisting and defending the right of the other. So resisting the, the the work of evil, resisting oppression

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, the discrimination exclusion where um it is important to exclude but or only on behavior to never to exclude with uh from because of color, sex orientation, nationality language, but exclusion only based on behavior.

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If someone is behaving in a criminal way in a cruel way, need to be separated from the community , but not because of any other reason. So the first factor function is that to protect in meaning

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sometimes resist the evil and sometimes defending from the evil . So that's a key element. And I will say, and notice that I put that number one , because if you cannot be protected, you cannot

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go to the second one, which is about caring . So caring for, for, for the group , that means making sure that the, the, the uh what we call people have access to food

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, to water, to shelter, to. So that's the caring to health. T I'm sorry. Uh That is missing the H the L there. So is there access to health? That's scary.

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The second key element of being uh having the function of pastor. And so anyone could be a pastor , not, not just the one who is ordained , there are other functions that can actually, this

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function can be done by someone who is not from the uh uh the cla from, from the uh in, in. Uh it's unfortunately, sometimes we talk about late ministry. Um But so that second

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one is key, making sure that our people have access to food, to water, to shelter, to health. Now, another function which is very important is that the people have opportunities. So it's

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not just about wanting this. If you, you , you, you could be whoever you wanna be . And that, that's a little bit deceiving in life. Yes, it's important who we are.

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And it's important that we take decision and make determination , to have determination, but we also need to have opportunity. So um I'll give you an example when I was 14, I knew I wanted to

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be a scientist that um I have no way I have so many limitation at that time because I wanted to be to go to the United States, you know, to study there and be able to equip

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myself to be AAA scientist. Well, about 35 years ago, I went to a conference in, in a country called Colombia and there were two doctors that came to do the uh conference, Doctor Montgomery

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and Doctor Hansen, they were there. I went to them and I say this is what I would like to do. And so Doctor Hansen offer me the opportunity, offer me the opportunity to have a

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scholarship and then I went to the US. So thanks. If I don't have Doctor Hansen and Doctor Montgomery, I will not have, I will not achieve where even if I have the desire in the

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determination. So a a pastor will provide opportunities, opportunity for what we call increase our human development index . So that um and that includes education. Then when I went to do my master in, in

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, in the phd, uh it was too much money. I didn't have the access to that money , but there was another pastor. His name was a pastor Ammerman. He said, how much do

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you need for your, for your doctor degree? And he offered me a scholarship. So when I graduated, I graduated debt free. So I have the opportunity given to me. So that's what we

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mean. In addition to the desire and determination, we need opportunity. And this is what a path will provide that kind of opportunity. So that for , for, for transcendence, see there from education

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. Yeah. Um And certainly another key element that a path to caregiver will provide his opportunity for and this is for recreation and wellness. So you can actually see the the the empathy uh of this idea

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of what a pastor will do. The classical one is still there is right, the the healing, the sustaining and we're not ignoring those, the the reconciling those classical uh function of path or care and

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counseling and guiding, they're still there. But you see the way we put it now. So again , it's not that we saying that we don't pay attention to those classical function of path or care.

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It's just that we have a different way to look at it. So that um you know, in fact, as you know, the word pasture, you see this is what I, I'm, I'm

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here now in my ranch dealing with cows and this is what I'm seeing now, I'm seeing the pasture of my cows. What are they eating? How we providing the care? So they can actually produce

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the milk that we want for them to produce? So it was, it is a very appropriate uh uh metaphor for what you and I do as religious leaders that um all right, so that will,

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that will provide as a definition, any question or reaction to that definition of past care and counsel, I I I'll mention a work on counseling perhaps before we move on that. So this word counseling,

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it is a very interesting one is not, not nothing new, this has to do with the World Council and it's a group of people coming together. So it's a group of people gathering to collect more

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information, more data in order to increase wisdom and therefore make better decisions. And if you make better decision, you can actually live a little bit better . So see the history and uh and origin of

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this word counseling is about counsel coming together. It's about community. It is. So what counseling is is the coming together to increase wisdom. So if we is increase wisdom, we can make better decisions

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. And if we make better decision, we can have a AAA better life. That's the whole idea the uh of community. So counseling is the movement from individualism to community. We realize that we can

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get farther in life, not alone by joining effort with someone else. So that in, in, in, in, in forming that community, then we have uh the opportunity to increase wisdom. So

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counsel is about increasing wisdom is not telling people what to do with their life. Now, it so the key element of counseling is what we call dialogue and dialogue has three elements which is silence, listening

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and language, which is only human have that opportunity of language. So silence first silencing within us, silencing those biases that, that we, that we might have silencing those worry that we might have silencing

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those distractions. Like I think today is called for in English, silencing those distraction. Like you have to check the phone while having a communication with someone that's called ping. So that uh in, in

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, in Spanish is an interesting word because it's ningun for which is to make someone nobody. So when we are having a conversation and we take a look at our phone, we are making the other person

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a nobody. It's a very interesting word that was invented in 2012. But coming back to the key element of counseling is dialogue. Dialogue is, is so important that in the Christian community and in the

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Jewish community, dialogue is God, they call it Dar in Hebrew and logos in Greek. So it's so important dialogue. So what do we do today ? We do a lot of debate and and debate

00:23:26.420 - 00:23:41.380

, we get distance from each other. So we disconnect from each other. In dialogue, we come together. So it's not, my idea is better than yours. My faith is better than yours.

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If we do that, that debating is trying to find who has the best opinion. But in dialogue , I have this experience, you have that experience and we can actually create community with people with different

00:24:02.570 - 00:24:18.820

experience, not the same experience. So the pastor occurring cancer with Latino is approaching without the intention to change the other person, the intention to get to know the person and also to get to learn from

00:24:18.830 - 00:24:37.660

the person and to increase wisdom, not to give wisdom. So that's the key difference that um so this, this is why dialogue is so central. There is a movement right now. It's called from

00:24:37.670 - 00:25:00.840

debate to dialogue and it is very appropriate. Now when we're facing this issue, the uh with the Hamas group and the Israel in which more than ever we need to, to resurrect dialogue and resist to

00:25:00.850 - 00:25:21.380

engaging in debating. Does that create more barrier disconnect us? So I I'll give you an example. Most Latino will. This is a silly example. And I'm looking at, I see uh uh some

00:25:21.390 - 00:25:40.890

of some people that I know so that you will be, you will appreciate the taco, but you also you will appreciate the hamburger. So and sometimes you have a AAA taste or uh want to have

00:25:40.900 - 00:25:53.610

a taco, but sometimes you want to have a hamburger. It's not like one is better than the other. When we engage in that comparison, we are debating. And so we are comparing to Sue

00:25:53.620 - 00:26:06.960

who is better. And if you go that route , we are in trouble. So it's not that one food is better than the other. It's just that is in addition to the culinaria that we have

00:26:07.590 - 00:26:19.430

that sometimes we want pasta, sometimes we want rice , sometimes we might have potato. But it doesn't mean that one is better than the other. That is just that it, it is a way to

00:26:19.440 - 00:26:36.050

increase. It is we want the same thing with English. Uh at the beginning, it was hard because for many of the Latino people in the US because they were pushed only to speak English and then

00:26:36.060 - 00:26:48.540

their parents, you want left behind, you want to speak English. Well, and so many, many Latinos in the US in pursuing that decided OK , that it was not a good thing to learn

00:26:48.550 - 00:27:00.660

the language, but it's not that English is better than the Spanish. The Spanish is better than English . It's just that a human being who is has wisdom, exposing himself or themselves to several language and

00:27:00.670 - 00:27:18.230

it's easier for us to communicate to them. Um And, and this is, it is even Jesus said it is, you know, you can do this in, in Matthew 1351 that a wise person

00:27:18.240 - 00:27:33.890

educated person value what what they have, but also welcome the new things. It's not about denigrating the Yesterday to celebrate it today. Uh It is that yesterday was important but today is a different day.

00:27:33.850 - 00:27:47.850

But you know, uh and the same thing with culture, it's not that one. Culture is better than the other. Every culture have culture, culture is another word for learning. You can substitute that

00:27:47.860 - 00:28:14.120

word culture from learning is the same. Uh culture is from cultivation, from farming. Again that she did is the thing that you have learned like language , religion, like perspective from sexual identity. So

00:28:14.130 - 00:28:29.720

that's culture, things that we have learned. So that in, in this learning are central, it's not that it's better. There are many learning that are obsolete. There are many learning that's not necessary

00:28:29.730 - 00:28:48.070

to have it anymore because we are evolving as a society. So the culture is evolving that because we have new learnings and uh I, I'm now sharing with all of my brothers and sister that um didn't

00:28:48.080 - 00:29:00.910

have the opportunity that I had to, to kind of get out of the the ranch and go to the city and become a professional, a social scientist . I mean, they didn't have that opportunity.

00:29:02.730 - 00:29:22.110

So, but that the fact that I got new learnings doesn't make me better than them. It's just that increased my wisdom. But and the fact that we might have more wisdom doesn't make us better humans

00:29:23.500 - 00:29:41.510

. So that uh uh or superior, I will say the word superior people than the other. OK . So that's basically the, the initiation of the conversation of what pastor pastor care and counseling actually imply

00:29:41.230 - 00:29:59.290

. So we celebrate what we have and we don't have to denigrate our history, denigrate our past. All right. So I'll open with some question reaction to the, the conversation that I just shared with

00:29:59.300 - 00:30:12.260

you. Uh Well, Doctor Montilla, thank you so much for all of this, for putting uh pastoral care in such a rich developmental perspective for us and for re really rooting it in our Christian faith

00:30:12.270 - 00:30:30.760

and showing how um in you through baptism, we , we need to be inclusive in 11 culture or one group shouldn't be lifted up over another. Um I was wondering, I have a list of questions

00:30:30.770 - 00:30:41.050

here and I'll, I'll only probably do one of them and then I'll share, I'll let the group ask some questions too. But I was wondering in your experience and this is kind of a high level

00:30:41.060 - 00:30:57.310

question, but I wanna ask it. So I'll just do it anyway, in your experience setting up hospice programs and doctoral programs in Mexico, Nicaragua and Venezuela. How have those contexts shaped the nature of

00:30:57.320 - 00:31:22.650

pastoral care do you think? Yeah. Thank you . Um You know, it was challenging at the beginning because of um we had been colonized and the colonization of the mind is this is what we have

00:31:23.420 - 00:31:48.660

. And this is enough. So we don't need to know more. So the initial was hard because it was to demonstrate and to awaken this need to keep growing and becoming like the example of that I

00:31:48.670 - 00:32:15.750

mentioned to you of Acts chapter eight when they, it was prohibited to teach the Bible to an eunuch . Eunuchs were male with female characteristic. So it was prohibited to teach them. And then Phillips was

00:32:15.760 - 00:32:34.960

forced to be taken and put, you know, face to face to and with an eunuch which it was in. So woman did not count, eunuch did not count Children, did not count. But

00:32:35.280 - 00:32:50.380

the writer of the, of the book of Act is saying that the time of the spirit has come and it's a different era. This is an error when everybody actually counts. So he, he's trying

00:32:50.390 - 00:33:08.210

to, the writer is trying to invite us to see that this eunuch. So he is in this car and he was lucky to be working as a uh perhaps treasure to, to a queen. And

00:33:09.710 - 00:33:30.610

when Philip is taken there, he was filled with biases in this sense that I have enough. I am good enough and better than the other. So it is not the transformation of the eunuch, but

00:33:30.620 - 00:33:45.550

the transformation of Phillips. So Philip was the one who needed to see the work, the the kind of work that God was doing. So he was placed there with the eunuch, not opportunity, not

00:33:45.560 - 00:34:00.300

by his choice. He did not make that choice . The angel took him there and forced him to have an immersing experience with someone that he rejected someone he thought did not count. He was surprised that

00:34:00.310 - 00:34:14.810

the eunuch was reading the Bible. It was written in the book of Isaiah. If he asked a question, the eunuch. So Philip asked the question , do you know, do you, do you

00:34:14.820 - 00:34:30.750

understand what you're reading? And then the eunuch said , how am I going to understand if nobody teach me? That's a protest for the exclusion that not , you know, could be taught. The Bible

00:34:31.070 - 00:34:49.750

, not only taught, they cannot enter ever, not even 10 of their generation to the sanctuary. So they were prohibited. But Phillip needed to be , it needed to know. And I'm not talking

00:34:49.760 - 00:35:05.230

about talk to Philip. Also, I'm talking about Phillips the one in the narrative of act Act eight , which is saying, you know, how am I going to understand? Nobody taught me and then

00:35:05.240 - 00:35:19.050

they went, they keep going, they kept going and they uh so the, you know, salt water. So what is the impediment? What is keeping you from baptizing me? Only the biases?

00:35:21.520 - 00:35:39.290

But Philip was already converted at that moment and baptized uh uh uh uh the eunuch and the, and the tech this and the eunuch continue happy with his trip. He did not stop being a eunuch.

00:35:40.590 - 00:35:58.130

And then Philip was taken back by the angel. So that's the transformation. And this was the most difficult part in Latin America to basically motivate, persuade the uh the pastor that we were uh working with

00:35:58.140 - 00:36:12.500

to see that there was room to learn that there was more in the text that there were other meaning in the tech that we were not somehow paying attention . So it was not that the meaning before was

00:36:12.510 - 00:36:25.300

wrong. It's just that the the tech is so rich, they have layers that we have not discovered . And so this was the the challenging. But I think the uh ju just to give you an

00:36:25.310 - 00:36:43.110

idea the first time that we opened a master program in counseling, we have 91 applicants see that. Uh And we want, we wanted to have a cohort of 25. So we have 90. So

00:36:43.120 - 00:37:01.870

there's this, this meat. Uh and it was uh uh an opportunity with an American University and a creative University. We got someone who said I want to provide 85% of the scholarship and that the entire

00:37:01.880 - 00:37:17.430

group graduated. So they're serving now in Colombia in , in Argentina, in Guatemala, Nicaragua in Mexico . Sin. Thank you for that. That's a pro too long answer. No, it's a wonderful

00:37:17.440 - 00:37:36.680

answer. Thank you, Doctor Montilla. It really does bring it to life. Um And so uh I think let's go now to questions from the group . I think in the practice you will see protecting

00:37:36.690 - 00:37:55.070

from uh one of the key elements for from exclusion just because maybe they did not have the, the language. Uh And so people making assumptions that this person doesn't he speak English, for instance, then

00:37:55.080 - 00:38:13.240

might be not AAA wise person in that. So protecting from that kind of exclusion based on the assumption that we're not present. And another one, when you have some economics needs, it's easy to be

00:38:13.250 - 00:38:34.080

exploited so that uh protecting from uh employers who were even paying our people less than the minimum wage. So, uh I had two experience and that was an interesting one with one pastor in talking in,

00:38:34.090 - 00:38:52.850

in the state of Texas that uh he spoke with the uh with the patron, with the boss, the supervisor. And uh and because this person was not working without document, the person had document and

00:38:52.860 - 00:39:07.120

working permit. But even if they don't have working permit and everybody who works is entitled to at least the minimum wage. But the pastor was able to speak with supervisor and they increased the, the salary

00:39:07.560 - 00:39:23.070

. Uh at that time, I think it was uh seven something and he was getting paid five bucks ,$5. So that, that kind of protecting because the person assumed that this, this person has

00:39:23.080 - 00:39:43.460

nobody to, is not a member of any union . Nobody to, to uh advocate to a, to advocate before our flocks is part of that protection as well. And sometimes is the mistreatment from uh

00:39:43.470 - 00:40:00.910

for, from physicians that uh because you might not look, you know, uh as a member of the dominant group or maybe you might have some accents in the language. You are uh giving only if

00:40:00.920 - 00:40:24.100

the other person, they're given 10 minutes, you're only given three minutes for uh uh So this is a kind of small intervention with more protection of our group. Um Thank you for that question. Well

00:40:25.520 - 00:40:42.360

, I think uh the group of doctor, he has great resources on this. He shared, they shared some of that in our last meeting. But um I think uh pastoral care from a post colonial

00:40:42.370 - 00:40:57.880

perspective, there are several books in that that could be a good resources that I can actually provide you with a longer list of that. Um I think we need to see. It's not like once again

00:40:57.890 - 00:41:15.620

that the traditional understanding of pastor care is wrong. It's just that increasing our perspective, what it means to be a pastor in this reality of today, which is an intercultural reality. So that um so

00:41:15.630 - 00:41:32.570

I will say uh the uh uh pay attention to the post colonial uh pastor care perspective in which we're not approaching people as superior or or inferior. We are approaching people as human, not as someone who

00:41:32.580 - 00:41:47.260

is only at the receiving end, but also at the giving end. So when we approach our church , for instance, instead of coming and saying this is our goal for this year. If you're appointing

00:41:47.270 - 00:42:06.140

as a pastor. And if you get there, this is the vision and the mission and objective, you're missing the point. Just interview the members provide a survey. Anton Boy was a patter in 1923

00:42:06.150 - 00:42:22.780

who invented C P U. But Anton Boysen was a surveyor. So he worked for churches, surveying churches what they need. So as you are appointed to a church, it's important to collect the data

00:42:22.450 - 00:42:37.450

. Where do, where do they see themselves in one year? Where do this, do they see themselves in five years? That's a vision. And that's a mission which is not given by the conference

00:42:37.860 - 00:42:52.170

, is not given by the bishop is the mission of the group. So that and so, and the fact that we might have a master of divinity or a doctor of theology and we are a pastor

00:42:52.180 - 00:43:10.540

or a doctor of ministry doesn't make us having the great goals because the idea is that the goal come from the people. So uh that's key in reaching out not as someone just at the giving and but

00:43:10.550 - 00:43:30.660

also at the receiving end so that we actually uh uh listening to see where they wanna be and then a leader from behind. Not so one key element of, of that image of the pastor is that

00:43:30.690 - 00:43:47.490

if a pastor is leading ships and he goes ahead when he get to the destiny, he might have 50 half of them, he had to be behind and kind of choke them the way and protect them

00:43:47.500 - 00:44:07.110

and care for them. So, is that leadership from behind? Not, I'm the one who knows , do what I say and you will be arriving at a good place that's colonization. That's not necessarily

00:44:07.120 - 00:44:34.800

to practice today. Thank you. And to have a le a a connection to, to groups, they, you need to designate someone the point of contact. And so then that person can provide the

00:44:34.810 - 00:44:53.690

pastor with information. So you might not be able because normally a pastor is one pastor to 150 people . Like everything is about ratio now. And so like it's one chaplain to 35 to 40 people,

00:44:54.350 - 00:45:14.290

one social worker to 50 people and one pastor to 150. But it's not as easy to be able to pay attention to 100 and 50 people. You , but you can have key people representing different group

00:45:14.700 - 00:45:31.130

who are the liaison that they can collect that information and provide it to you like the Jro mentality of Moses in very that uh you might not access to the 150. But the idea is to collect the

00:45:31.140 - 00:45:59.620

data from them and know where they are. The first one right now. We have every month, 30,000 people coming from Latino countries. So uh these people 30,000 per month, most of them have no

00:45:59.630 - 00:46:21.350

access to health, no access to shelter yet. Because the process take about 60 to 90 days for people who are coming from seeking asylum or refugees to get a working permit. So in those 60 months

00:46:22.110 - 00:46:37.960

, that's one of the challenge the churches are facing because they um it, it is assisting these people with the basic need, clothes, food, shelter . That's one, a big one. And this

00:46:37.970 - 00:46:57.960

is not changing and we cannot be just like Mr Musk that go to the border with all these billions of money and just criticize and never make an a a AAA contribution to the churches to assist, you

00:46:57.970 - 00:47:17.260

know, this community. If, if, if just to give an idea, if the government is providing 10 things, the churches are providing 90. So that um but this Latino, these churches,

00:47:17.270 - 00:47:30.970

not just Latino, this, these churches providing the service need our support right now. So right now , I would say that's the most demanding need. Um And it doesn't matter if you are in Austin

00:47:30.980 - 00:47:43.490

, there are many, if you are in New York, you are in trouble too. If you are in San Antonio, if you are in Los Angeles, this is everywhere because it's not easy to

00:47:43.500 - 00:48:10.330

take 30,000 per month I in and that is a little bit uh uh uh that's only what the government is processing right now. Well, I I game I think the churches is now. I will say

00:48:12.180 - 00:48:24.280

fulfilling that. Uh I'm sorry, that was a question to me. Not just to the group. Thank you, Madison. I did uh But I think the church is right now is becoming the church

00:48:24.290 - 00:48:42.490

of Christ. And I'm not talking about the denomination . I'm saying the church that is actually showing Christ to people by not proselytizing by just serving them. Um I mean, and not just the uh the

00:48:42.500 - 00:48:58.580

, the Methodist and the Baptist and Prester, it's amazing what I'm seeing how the church is being involved actively in, in reaching out and providing to the Latino community. Like more churches right now are providing

00:48:58.590 - 00:49:14.060

English as a second language program for free. And they uh I have some family members who are attending , studying English in those churches uh three times a week. Um The university provider is quite, is

00:49:14.070 - 00:49:28.850

quite difficult to get into. You have to have papers, these people don't have paper at the beginning . It take like a 90 days. So churches are doing that. Uh basically providing those basic n

00:49:29.020 - 00:49:49.050

are also options. Uh I had someone right now who is already doing the uh validation of their study in here in the US to go and pursue a master degree. So this is it, I'm seeing

00:49:49.060 - 00:50:10.870

this in, in Georgia and I'm, I'm just um celebrating that move. Uh That's the essence of spirituality. If spirituality means putting a pos to our needs, to our reality, to assist someone else

00:50:10.880 - 00:50:30.430

. That's the essence of transcendence is ex, is the word, the same word for ex exegesis is that we, we exit our own meat to concentrate on the need of someone else. Um Doctor Montilla

00:50:30.440 - 00:50:43.070

, I just wanted to uh spend a little time reflecting with you on the uh the many graces that you've given us in this conversation. And um I don't know if you all uh have seen Doctor Mont's

00:50:43.230 - 00:50:53.770

book, Pastoral Care and Counseling with Latinos. Um If you haven't read it yet, I really highly recommend it. And then I'm also kind of wondering Doctor Montilla when there might be a new edition that

00:50:53.780 - 00:51:07.360

comes out. Uh There's been, there's is this is such a rich book. And um one of the things that I love about it is your foregrounding of liberation as uh liberation for Latinos as the central

00:51:07.370 - 00:51:19.680

pastoral concern. And then everything else kind of flows from that. I also really love both in what you've done with us today and also in your work as a whole. Um how you've integrated um your

00:51:19.690 - 00:51:31.720

vision of pastoral care with all the services of ministry and the functions of ministry through our tra throughout our long tradition. So there's this deep historical awareness, but then also today, you're calling us to be

00:51:31.840 - 00:51:51.210

um prophetic in our imagination with one another. And um see move beyond the old multicultural model where we were grateful for these differences between us towards a really deeply intercultural um where we uh give thanks for the

00:51:51.220 - 00:52:05.740

ways that we belong to and are responsible to one another. Um I was wondering, I have more questions about self care for, especially for Latino pastors who are trying to do this every day. Um

00:52:05.750 - 00:52:20.780

I can imagine that the burdens of trying to be prophetic and liberated all the time and exiting your own needs for the sake of your community might over time uh make it difficult to continue that community. Um

00:52:20.790 - 00:52:37.230

But what I've really drawn from your talk today is that um pastoral ministers can't just be on the sidelines . Uh They have to have a public role um protecting and um standing in the gap for their community

00:52:44.590 - 00:52:59.720

. Yes. And I think it, it pass to have access to, to this detention center. Uh When we go to this detention center, if you introduce yourself as a pastor, they have an

00:52:59.730 - 00:53:16.170

open door, do not close it. And just to give you an idea, there are places who are made to have 500 they have 2000 people sleeping in little bags there, one after the other.

00:53:17.450 - 00:53:35.270

And uh I think just the state and the government cannot handle this anymore. So the church uh you know, doing what we were called to do is , is, is this is the moment to become

00:53:35.280 - 00:53:51.030

involved. It, it doesn't matter if you have a political uh uh you know, orientation or not . This is not about being a Republican or Democrat or Libertarian. This is about being Christians and,

00:53:51.040 - 00:54:12.010

and uh we have because not only people from from Latin America, but also from the Caribbean. And people from, even from Asia are in this group and is, is overwhelming. And that um because

00:54:12.020 - 00:54:29.650

I mentioned to you the figure of 30,000, those are the ones who are processing legally, but in some places, they are above above 200,000. So they had to come. Yeah. O OK,

00:54:29.660 - 00:54:42.760

Doctor Montilla, thank you so much for your contribution to our conversation today, which I I'm finding to be uh radically faithful. Um So I'm deeply grateful for your work with us today. And for again

00:54:42.770 - 00:54:52.120

, every chance that I have to engage with you is just such a blessing and a source of hope um for me. So thank you so much. Thank, thank you for the opportunity and thank you

00:54:52.130 - 00:55:06.940

for the questions and I look forward to continue with this dialogue and yes, I will. Uh I'm working on uh uh not an updated version, but it is another book on uh they have to do

00:55:06.950 - 00:55:19.940

with integration of faith and religion in the pastoral counseling practice. So that so that that will be in uh that one will, will be also in English available in English. Wonderful. It's urgently needed.

00:55:19.950 - 00:55:22.320

Thank you so much, Doctor Montilla. Thank you