00:00:04.340 - 00:00:21.410

Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. Mhm. This conversation , this webinar is called talking preaching about racism. A guide for faith leaders. And this webinar is based on my book that's coming out next month,

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technically december 5th is the launch date. But if you pre order the book through chalice press dot com , it should be getting to your address in november . The basic reason for writing this book began over

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a decade ago when I was uh serving in admissions at Princeton Seminary. I was associate director of admissions and at that point I had been in ministry for several years. I had worked on the US Mexico

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border as a chaplain. I had been an associate pastor at a church in san Antonio and I had been disseminate airy where I had for the first time in my life really learned more about racism as an

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ongoing problem. Not as something that was in the past, but something that still occurs today now as a white person talking about racism made me feel very uncomfortable, very anxious. Uh, and hence the

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name of my first book, anxious to talk about it. I think sometimes our anxiety around this conversation of not knowing what to say, of not knowing if we know the right words to use of being

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afraid will be called a racist. All of those kinds of fears can often get in the way of us having these kinds of conversations. So in my beginning research when I was working in administration, I

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started thinking how can we have these conversations in a way that doesn't lead us into this game spiral or feeling like, oh, I'm just a bad person , I don't know what to do. So I

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can't talk about this anymore. And I came across the work of Beverly Daniel Tatum. Uh and her work on racial identity development theory. She published an article in the Harvard Educational Review, in which she

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talked about bringing up this particular theory in a classroom in which she was talking about racism. Now, the theory goes like this, just like there are developmental stages among Children welcome, just as there are

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developmental stages among Children, there are developmental stages for persons who grow up in this racialized society uh in terms of coming to understand what it means to be racialized in a particular way and how we feel about

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that racial Ization. So, for instance, for people of color who have grown up in a society that has given them a lot of negative messages about who they are, about standards of beauty, being

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primarily judged against white standards. Uh it's really important and racial identity development for persons to reclaim a sense , Hello! Welcome to reclaim a sense of, of self care of love, of being able to

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recognize their own uh struggle against the injustices that they experience, but that's not the only side of racial identity development. Beverly Daniel Tatum was talking about how for her white students in this course, on the

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psychology of racism. The white students needed to see that there was a stage of progression for them too . So the feelings that they would experience of shame , of feeling like, oh, I don't know

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what to do or a desire to withdraw from the conversation, that all of these kinds of reactions were a normal part of the process, but weren't the final goal. That wasn't the end result that was

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hoped for at the end of developmental stages, but rather for white people to see that they can follow in the footsteps of other white people who have spoken out against racism in their history and their time in

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their place, uh, and letting white people know that they also can make a difference. So I drew together some of the elements of racial identity development theory as I was working uh in um on my

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PhD, after I left Princeton Seminary to pursue full time PhD studies at Emory University, getting to work with tom lung and Teresa fry Brown, some amazing creatures and home politicians and again, trying to draw

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from a lot of different sources, how can I best support white preachers in talking about race with their predominantly white congregations? Because that was the context that I had grown out of and was the context that

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I assumed I would be returning to as a white preacher, wanting to make a difference, wanting to try to speak out against racism that was ongoing. So I was able to take courses across the university

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in in theology, uh in political theory and uh linguistics, uh and all of these courses together helped me kind of Bring together kind of a strategy or a goal of plan for how I can help people

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talk about racism. Uh and some of that comes out in anxious to talk about it. The book published by Chalice Press in uh this past February 2018 , but that book is written for a broader audience

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for persons in your congregation, uh for small groups . It has a lot of stories because I believe that narrative is an important way for us to enter into these conversations. But I also wanted to give

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additional tools to preachers. And so this second book , preaching about racism, A Guide for Faith leaders is meant to add additional resources for those of you that are getting up in the pulpit week after week

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trying to figure out how do we talk about racism in today's context? Several of the problems or challenges that I found in talking about race and racism is that one? There is not a common sense,

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uh, understanding or definition of what race and racism means that everyone agrees with. If you grew up in certain parts of the country or certain neighborhoods, racism looks one way to you. If you grew

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up in another neighborhood, it looks a different way . So helping people. Um, no, first of all that, it's very challenging to communicate about this, primarily because we're not speaking the same language

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. Now, if you go to an anti racist training or diversity training, um, there are a lot of great educators who will kind of walk through a definition of racism to help everyone be speaking the

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same language early on in that event. But what I found in communicating in congregations is that you can't count on everyone having gone through an anti racist training session, uh, and you are always getting new

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people coming in and out. So you can't assume that everyone is using the same definition or the same working knowledge of what you even mean by the word racism. So one of the chapters in the books

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in the book, preaching about racism kind of unpacks some of the ways that maybe we've been taught to think about racism or some of the ways that we may inadvertently still communicate about racism that aren't exactly helpful

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. So for instance, I was I was talking with a group of middle school parents this morning uh , in Austin, and one of the parents was saying, you know, if we can just help

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our kids see that racism is stupid, you know , like I think we can help them see like , yeah, why would you believe in these false stereotypes about people? Because that's just dumb. Maybe

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if we get our kids to think that way, then it will mean that they won't, they're less likely to be to be racist. One of the problems with assuming that racism is a problem of ignorance

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or stupidity is that it kind of misses out on the long history of intentional segregation that has financially benefited some groups and disadvantage other groups. Um So for instance, um after World War Two and veterans are

00:09:05.650 - 00:09:18.190

coming back from the war, uh the G. I. Bill, that was given out to many of our veterans was given out at a local level , so um the benefits of getting a low interest

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mortgage. Um those were given through local banks, and it was up to the bank whether or not to give that mortgage to a person of color, even if they were a returning veteran. So you

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see a huge um you know, uh a really great disparity in terms of the number of of white veterans who were able to get the G. I . Bill versus those who were people of color coming

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back from the war. So you get a mortgage and as a white person, your mortgage, uh you know, you have a good interest rate, you're able to pay it off and you see that

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property value over time appreciate, and you're able to pass on that wealth to future generations. You're able to live in a neighborhood that you want to live in, that have great schools. Then you have

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this simultaneous story of people of color who are returning from the war and in our national guidelines for the Federal Housing Authority, the underwriting rules that dictated how to give out mortgages, which investments were less risky

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than others. This is where you have the beginning of red lines, literally lining out the neighborhoods that were the riskiest investment people of color, primarily, but also immigrants from eastern europe. A lot of

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places where there was a high density of of of poverty. So say you're a person of color, say you're african american, that who comes back from the war and you're given this G. I Bell

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and you say, great, okay, let's let's get a house and you go to Levittown and they say, you know, sorry, this is a new home, you know, neighborhood that we are

00:11:09.910 - 00:11:18.810

building for our we are returning vets. But you know, we can't let you in here. This isn't, you know, all the homes are sold now, even though we might let you know someone

00:11:18.810 - 00:11:31.190

who comes behind you whose white have one of these houses. So you have someone like that turned away and then that that same person turns and goes to a neighborhood that might have more people of color in

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it. But because the underwriting deems it as a riskier investment, he may still get denied that mortgage because it's a riskier investment in the underwriting redlining may say, we're not going to write a mortgage for

00:11:45.600 - 00:11:58.430

that. So he he goes into that inner city area and he has to rent and by renting a year after year after year, he's not building up equity. He's not able to put down roots.

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Uh, and he's not able to pass on wealth to his Children. So if you are living in a neighborhood where, for instance, you know, people well, who are living in predominantly white neighborhoods

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, there's uh, there are different housing values. And over time we have had laws that have prohibited housing discrimination. But still today, as neighborhoods change demographics racially, the housing prices are affected. And

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so when the G. I. S. Were coming back after World War Two, for instance, realtors would come in and pray on on white homeowners and say, look, this is this neighborhood is

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going to be turning bad. You need to sell your house and get out now while you can. So we have this white flight where white people are selling their homes, and then the real estate agent

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turns and sells it at a great profit, uh , to a black family coming in who sees their home value start to go down because the neighborhood values overall are going down. So in terms of economics

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, as you think about racism as a larger kind of system historically, um, it makes sense. It's rationally in the interests of those who have the power and the wealth to want to hold on to

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that wealth and to keep it for themselves. Uh , and so it was very intentional the way people chose where to live and and chose the neighborhoods, uh, and they can be doing these, they

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can be making these decisions without any clear racist intention , not clearly wanting to be harmful to other people . But you see how economically, over, over , um, you know, generations and over across

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cities and across the country. Um, it does make a big difference. And it keeps some people in, um, chronically disadvantaged positions compared to their white counterparts. So I say all that as a

00:14:01.960 - 00:14:18.060

way of saying, if we just dismiss racism as a matter of stupidity or a matter of ignorance, um, we lose sight of the way that racism can be deeply entangled with with people's rational self interest

00:14:18.060 - 00:14:35.480

, rational pursuit of profit, trying to do good business in their mind. Uh And so it's really important that we that we say okay, it's not just about stupid e it's not just about ignorance.

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Um There have been people who have been intentional about trying to get profits in ways that have been unduly harmful to some groups. I see it in Austin here In 1928 when the city devised a new city

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plan, African Americans who had been living adjacent to white families in the heart of Austin were told they were not going to get city utilities until they moved to the east side of what is now I-35.

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And so there was this mass exodus of african americans in Austin having to live on the East side. Fast forward to the last two decades. You've seen huge growth in Austin, a lot of skyscrapers going

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up like every other week. Um, and so property values are going higher and higher, and people who are living in East Austin no longer can afford to live in East Austin because corporate developers come in

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and say, you know, we'll give you this huge amount of money if you move out. And so you have poor families who can't afford the increase in property taxes and can't afford to say no to

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these corporate investors moving even further out. So we have a city that is actually decreasing in its population of African americans, unlike most metropolitan areas. So all that to say, when we talk about race

00:16:02.650 - 00:16:15.610

and racism, we're talking about something very big. We're talking about something that has to do with history that has to do with our financial system, that has to do with our politics. Uh and so

00:16:15.610 - 00:16:27.580

because you have all of these really, um kind of deep entanglements when we're talking about race and racism , It's not something you can cover in one sermon . So for those of you that we're hoping to

00:16:27.580 - 00:16:40.570

get ideas for that one sermon, uh hate to disappoint you, but this is something that people have been working on a long time and that we'll need to continue to work on for a very long time

00:16:41.540 - 00:16:53.240

. So how do you begin to do that? How do you begin to communicate about what racism racism is in your preaching? One of the one of the things to do is to help expand person's understanding

00:16:53.250 - 00:17:08.830

of what racism looks like today and what it means . Um using stories using statistics, using uh individuals uh and helping people here through those stories, kind of a bigger picture of what racism means. But

00:17:08.830 - 00:17:23.930

the second thing that I found to be a the deep challenge of talking about racism or preaching about racism is the fact that when we're talking about race and racism, we're talking about identities. We're talking about

00:17:23.930 - 00:17:37.980

something very personal to each and every one of us as a white person. I've been socialized to think of myself as an individual, to not think of myself in terms of the white community or the white

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world. I've always just been myself. If you had asked me, you know, to name my identity, I might say Texan because I grew up in san Antonio. Um, so that that connection

00:17:48.740 - 00:18:03.490

with racial identity and being white for me growing up wasn't there? Now, if you grew up in a different era, that might be very different for you identifying as white can feel very um very wrong

00:18:03.490 - 00:18:18.330

since in earlier eras. People would clearly differentiate between white and people of color and only white people could sit in certain places at a church and a movie theater or use that bathroom or that water fountain.

00:18:18.340 - 00:18:32.540

Uh, and so too many people not naming that identify rare uh, feels like that's an improvement to go without labels is something that was necessary to say . Everybody can use any bathroom, any water found

00:18:32.550 - 00:18:48.650

any seat in the house. Um, but at the same time, it's important that we reclaim the significance of those identities because of their ongoing impact in the world. There's a lot of literature out there

00:18:48.650 - 00:19:02.530

that talks about white privilege, uh, and naming the different things that white people are able to do without worrying about them compared to persons of color. And I think it's it's helpful for us to use

00:19:02.530 - 00:19:17.620

some of those examples to name some of those differences . Um, but at the same time because talking about race and racism is so personal deals with your own identity. I think it's also crucial that we

00:19:17.630 - 00:19:30.710

integrate our understanding of the emotions in psychology behind the persons that are listening to you talk and preach about racism. So I mentioned Beverly Daniel Tatum is work earlier uh, in preaching about racism. I have

00:19:30.710 - 00:19:51.220

a whole chapter that talks about racial identity development for the congregation for understanding how these different emotional responses and psychological responses may play out in our congregations. And the reason why that is important is because it allows

00:19:51.220 - 00:20:04.040

us to be compassionate for ourselves as well as for others. So if I'm feeling a resistance to wanting to talk about this, because it's it's stressful, I know there's going to be people who are uncomfortable

00:20:04.050 - 00:20:17.530

. Um if I'm at least aware of those feelings , I'm able to sit with them, I'm able to be okay with those feelings and to move through them. But if we don't attend to those feelings

00:20:17.530 - 00:20:29.670

, often they can become, uh, they can become another another obstacle, another excuse for why we just can't do this or why this is not appropriate for us to talk about now. So helping our

00:20:29.740 - 00:20:40.790

congregants, our listeners also understand that they're going to be feeling some pretty strong feelings. Uh, and um, and it's not just white people. Uh , there are plenty of people of color who are

00:20:40.790 - 00:20:53.680

really wary of having these conversations with other white people because um, they've done it before and some of those experiences have been good and others not so good . Uh, and so there's reason for people to

00:20:53.680 - 00:21:11.760

have some anxiety. There's reason for people to have some hesitancy about having these conversations. So what connects to the a third reason for this challenge? The first challenge was understanding what racism means. The second

00:21:11.760 - 00:21:27.630

challenge was the kind of identity peace and what that makes us feel as individuals in terms of identifying ourselves racially. But this third challenges is recognizing a response . So once we've kind of learned more about racism

00:21:27.630 - 00:21:41.690

, we've tried to grapple with what it means to be persons of color or white people living in this society. Then what's the next step? What do we do now? And something I name in anxious

00:21:41.690 - 00:21:56.310

to talk about it is, um, this distinction between the word responsibility and response ability. Um, and I make that distinction not because there's, uh , there's a lot of difference there because responsibility can

00:21:56.310 - 00:22:10.780

still be a helpful and important word, but I have found a lot of people feel along with the word, responsibility, a sense of shame, a sense of guilt, a sense of duty, which

00:22:10.790 - 00:22:30.270

may or may not be a helpful way of routing your own action. Whereas response ability, focusing on our ability to respond allows for more openhearted approach to say, okay, I'm not, I might not

00:22:30.270 - 00:22:47.260

be being asked to do anything right now, but just to listen, I can listen to these stories to these experiences and think about how I can respond in in solidarity, in compassion, having that openness

00:22:47.270 - 00:23:03.130

to move from an initial reaction of defensiveness. I'm being asked to be responsible instead to kind of an open posture of response ability, thinking about our ability to respond with love and open arms and building that

00:23:03.140 - 00:23:21.350

connection. And one of the ways that we do that is through this concept of gratitude as christian preachers . We base our preaching on gratitude, not shame or guilt. We don't try to live differently because

00:23:21.360 - 00:23:33.550

uh, we feel bad about who we are, but rather because of the deep gratitude we feel for God's grace, for what God has already done in us and through us and for us in christ and

00:23:33.550 - 00:23:48.650

because of that gratitude that inspires us to live in new ways. Similarly, when we're talking about something as painful as racism, I think when you're talking with predominantly white groups, uh, it's important to

00:23:48.650 - 00:24:04.680

talk about gratitude as a motivation, as a way of a practice of expectation. So rather than coming to these conversations with uh, you know, tension with anxiety, with dread. How can we have

00:24:04.680 - 00:24:18.500

this practice of expectation that I'm going to be grateful for something that happens in this exchange? I'm not sure what it is, It may be hard story that I get to hear, but I'm going to

00:24:18.500 - 00:24:30.210

feel grateful for something that happens. Uh, and having that expectation again, puts you in a posture to receive the people that are there in that room that are there to share their stories and enables you

00:24:30.210 - 00:24:45.030

to show up and be present with the gifts that you yourself have to share. So those are kind of some uh three big overarching principles as I think about preaching about racism is helping our congregants grapple with

00:24:45.040 - 00:25:00.560

what racism means, helping our congregants grapple with their own racial identity, uh, and help them move towards a healthier space. And then third, helping congregants understand uh and deepen their capacity to respond through

00:25:00.560 - 00:25:17.160

gratitude. Um, so when I'm, when I'm planning sermons, often those three moves are part of this hermeneutic that I bring to the scripture I take uh that those three parts and think about how can

00:25:17.160 - 00:25:30.820

a sermon that I'm preaching drawing from this particular text incorporate these elements? Is there a story I can share that relates to the scripture text that helps open our eyes to the reality of racism? Is there

00:25:30.820 - 00:25:45.010

a part in this text that I can I can connect ourselves to helping our listeners and myself? I feel like I am part of this story, I'm implicated in it. And yet I'm given an option

00:25:45.010 - 00:25:56.360

to respond. Is there a way that we can help our listeners feel part of this story? And then third, this movement towards gratitude? Where can I find good news? Something to be grateful for

00:25:56.440 - 00:26:07.690

in this text, as we're talking about racism? What is what is the good news that I can find here, that I can be grateful for? And that I can encourage my congregation with uh and

00:26:07.690 - 00:26:21.590

letting that gratitude again be what sends us out to do good work. Now preaching again, it's not just one sermon that, that we can do to address all the problems of racism. Obviously, there

00:26:21.590 - 00:26:30.840

would have been plenty of great preachers who would have accomplished that long ago, but it is a long term effort. It's a regular engagement. Uh, and so in, uh, in the book,

00:26:30.850 - 00:26:42.170

uh, preaching about racism, I have a chapter on preaching and beyond. So what are some other ways that congregations can get involved? Uh, and uh, I have some, some suggestions there too

00:26:42.940 - 00:26:56.760

. Well, let me just close with this. Um, I really do want to empower everyone to be able to have these kinds of conversations and to be specific. Uh, this morning when I was

00:26:56.770 - 00:27:07.160

, I was talking with these parents. Uh, someone said, well, can you change your words a little bit too majority and minority? I mean , because that kind of covers a little bit more

00:27:07.440 - 00:27:22.030

and and I said, you know, that might be helpful in some, in some contexts. But when we're talking about race and racism, it really is important that we be specific because this harm has

00:27:22.030 - 00:27:37.050

been so specific and continues to be experienced in specific ways, uh, that it's important that we name it and it makes us uncomfortable to name. But that discomfort shouldn't prevent us from from naming it.

00:27:38.340 - 00:27:51.210

Uh, and I encourage those of you who are preachers who are preaching regularly, um, to again see yourself as going through a process of as not having arrived at being woke and now you're ready to

00:27:51.210 - 00:28:00.910

tell everybody racist they are. Um, but rather a sense of, again, as Albert mentioned, you know, a sense of humility to know that we're going to still mess up, you know,

00:28:00.910 - 00:28:14.280

people might assume that were racist and we might say things that hurt others, but as we grow in relationship with one another, as we let down our defenses, uh, and trust that we have those

00:28:14.280 - 00:28:25.830

gifts to offer, that those relationships will be avenues for learning. We'll learn how to, how to get it right, we'll learn how to do better . Um, so as preachers having that attitude that

00:28:25.830 - 00:28:38.390

I'm growing, I'm learning and yet this is a gift of learning that I want to share with my congregation. I'm not standing above them judging them, but I am trying to be prophetic in a society

00:28:38.390 - 00:28:55.310

that still experiences deep harm. And how can we together as a church, stand up and speak out against this, encouraging our congregants to recognize the gifts that they have to offer in every group that I've

00:28:55.310 - 00:29:08.090

been part of at some point. When we have the questions, I've been amazed by the people that are there and the kinds of contributions they can make last sunday. Um, there was a person,

00:29:08.100 - 00:29:21.980

a white woman who um, you know, shared that she has a brother in law who's in law enforcement and she was really worried about the kinds of stories that he shared at the dinner table and would

00:29:21.980 - 00:29:37.120

laugh about. And she herself is lesbian, married . And she has felt some discrimination against herself from this brother in law. So she didn't really feel comfortable talking about how he has talked about his work

00:29:37.130 - 00:29:49.510

with him in just, you know, you know , few few seconds later, this newcomer to the group, an african american woman, uh, you know, and I say, well, she's been

00:29:49.510 - 00:30:02.050

in this same kind of law enforcement. Why don't we ask her what she would recommend that you do ? And sure enough she said yeah you can go to this website and contact this um ombudsman and you

00:30:02.050 - 00:30:12.700

know this is what you do and this is what they will do in response. Uh and you know it was just this beautiful connecting of resources like yes , we don't have to reinvent the wheel. There

00:30:12.700 - 00:30:25.940

are a lot of people that already have resources out there to help us make a difference. Um and this morning when I was speaking with these middle school moms, you know one mom who was white uh

00:30:25.940 - 00:30:40.670

and has my same name Caroline. You know she comes from South Africa and we're sharing you know, just with tears about the shame that she bears having grown up in South Africa during apartheid and how being

00:30:40.670 - 00:30:53.580

now kind of a foreigner in some ways. Uh She notices that she's treated differently because of her accent or her kids don't want her anywhere near their schools . But but she notices in doing a B the

00:30:53.580 - 00:31:07.930

bridge group, there's an organization here in Austin called be the Bridge bridge builders. You create this group where she's been able to talk with women of color african american moms and you know, when they get

00:31:07.930 - 00:31:22.180

together and and having these conversations, her eyes are opened and she sees that even though she as as she they joked together that their african american and she's an american african uh, you know that that she

00:31:22.180 - 00:31:36.330

is still accepted in some circles more than these other women are. So even though she feels like an outsider, in some cases, she's still often uh , you know, sees that she is still accepted

00:31:36.340 - 00:31:45.940

in ways that these black women aren't. Uh and so she's like, what can we do? Can we do like a bridge builders here? And you know, again, it's that gift like, oh

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here's a mom who might be willing to lead a group of interracial conversations at this middle school, awesome . Um so again, it's an openness to the gifts that are already there in your congregation. Uh

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and letting the people who have a passion, who have a sense of calling to be able to take leadership and to not be afraid of making a mistake but to know that we all need our gifts working

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together to be able to address around this hard and this deep. Um so I want to thank all of you for joining the conversation with us today. Um this will, this has been recorded and it

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will be uploaded later so that you can rewatch parts of it. I talk fast, you can slow down. Um but again, thank you for the gifts that you bring to this conversation and for the

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work that you all are doing in your own ministry