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Well, good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to cultivating ideas. My name is Shawn Watkins. I serve as Associate Dean of Lifelong Learning here at Austin Seminary . And as you are well aware, cultivating ideas

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is our webinar series that allows us to showcase the brilliance of our faculty here at Austin Presbyterian Theological Seminary . Uh And we have a rare treat with us today. Uh Doctor Jong Hyung, uh Hong Jong

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, excuse me, uh is an Assistant Press Professor of the New Testament, uh joined the team here at Austin Seminary back in 2022. Uh He previously taught at Emory University at the Candler School of Theology

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and in Mercer University Department of Religion. He is a native of Seoul, South Korea and is ordained to the Ministry of Word and Sacrament by the Presbyterian Church uh for the past 10 years. He served

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in the US and in Korea as well as a student missionary in the Democratic Republic of Congo back in 2010. And so, uh today, Doctor Jong is going to expound on reading revelation without millennialism.

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Uh We often look at the prophetic books to interpret current political landscapes or modern technological innovations, but how do we interpret revelation in a way in which is biblically accurate, contextually relevant? And also just kind

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of helps us avoid kind of this um politicizing, polarizing kind of cultish language that we have going right now. So super excited to hear from him, Professor, by all means, take it away.

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Thank you Sean. And thank you everyone um for this time. And I'm really glad to um share my thoughts with you through this um opportunity. I teach New Testament here at Austin Seminary. And as

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you know, today's title is Reading Revelation Without Millennialism . Um Let me share my screen for you. OK. So I think Revelation, it's like mint chocolate. What does that mean? Well, I'm

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thinking about some debate over mint chocolate that was really hot a few years ago in Korea. In fact , it is like an internet meme. So I'm not sure whether it was really hot debate in reality

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. Um I was not there. Um But anyway , I think in this exaggerated internet debate, some Koreans say that they really love mint chocolate um due to its fresh and sweet taste, even to the

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extent that they can add mint, mint chocolate um to any type of dish. But some others say that they really hate mint chocolate because it feels like adding toothpaste, toothpaste on chocolate. And what's the

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effect you're dividing the entire population into two types? Either you are mint chocolate lover or mint chocolate hater Minho. Um is what we call Mint Chocolate in , in Korea. So either you are Minho Lover

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or Minch hater when I teach Revelation in um in my classroom or at, at churches. Um I see a similar pattern of reactions. Some people say um that they don't like revelation. Some of them

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haven't read Revelation at all. They think revelation is a dangerous book. Uh And it doesn't help much for, for their faith on the contrary. Um some others are crazily obsessed with revelation. For them

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. Revelation is um the most the most important book for us to discern the present time and to remain faithful as we live toward the end of history or the end of the world, which is now ironically

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, the Book of Revelation is a kind of book that creates such a division. Revelations own rhetoric creates boundaries between those who are faithful and those who are faithless, those who will be blessed and those who

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will be excluded from that. Indeed, revelation is a dangerous book. Part of the reason why there are these too strong and contrasting reactions to revelation is because of things like this. Think about the number

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666 mentioned in revelation 1318, which is of course the most famous. So let me read the verses also, it causes all both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave to

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be marked on the right hand or the forehead so that no one can buy or sell, who does not have the mark that is name of the beast or the number of its name. This calls for

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wisdom. Let anyone with understanding, calculate the number of the beast for it is the number of person . Its number is 666 and the fear of the number 666 has a long name. Uh, as

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you see on the screen, which I do not try to pronounce. It's a long name, but it's based on the Greek number 666. Um I think um that is quite similar to the aversion of

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number four in Korea or in some East Asian countries . Number four has the same sound as a word um referring to death or die. So when I found this advertisement here um in Austin, near my

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campus, I I giggled. Um so I took the picture if this was in Korea, um that law firm um would not be successful that that advertisement would not work. Well, I remember when I

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was a little kid elevators in Korea didn't use the number four. They just replaced it with an English alphabet F meaning four, right? Or some buildings even just skip the fourth floor and go directly to

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the fifth floor. Um The parking lot photo um right below is from Japan and they also had some kind of similar version of number four. So not sure this is still the case nowadays in the 21st

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century. Um But it was so in decades ago , anyway, back to number 666. According to revelation 13, this 666 is the number of the beast as well as the number of a person.

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So the number 666 is not scary in itself. But what's significant is that it refers to a certain person, really scary person represented by the beast, the image of the beast in this book and without

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this mark of the beast, no one can buy or sell. So people often ask, have asked the question, who or what is this beast? If this, this book is about in this understanding

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, if this book is about foretelling the future and if that future refers to time that I currently live in, what is the precise referent of this beast ? And that causes many people's curiosity, speculation and

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fear. Um There's uh these are some examples of attempts to identify who or what the beast is. The picture um on the off left is from Texas . Um But the picture on the right side is

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from South Korea, a street from South Korea. So linking the number 666 to some modern technology um or political landscape is not just a U US phenomenon , but it's widely um found there have been numerous

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theories from early on in history. This beast was often identified with a figure called the anti-christ since the text says number is the number of a person. However, the precise word anti-christ is not found in

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the Book of Revelation. So even that reflects some kind of interpretation that combines other books of the Bible . Since the protestant reformation, some Protestants have viewed Roman Catholicism and Papacy as the beast. But in

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the 40th century onward, secular political or business figures were international political organizations received some suspicion. And in the late 20th century onward, due to the development of technology, some technological innovations, inventions became the

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most heated targets including the barcode system, World Wide Web, the verification chip and most recently the Coronavirus vaccines and perhaps um some of you who would watch this video, these reflect very serious and significant effort

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. Whilst for some others of you there, these are just arbitrary and hopeless attempts and I don't want to be judgmental. The purpose of showing all these examples is first to demonstrate that the Book of Revelation

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has some enduring power to draw people's attention with controversies in each and every generation. And second um attempts to solve a puzzling number or to avoid that number in fear would be perhaps cross cultural. It's not

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just about this book, this number and all of this controversial History of the Beast number uh or um attempts of identifying the beast number can be related to the question of how to read this book, how

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to read the Book of Revelation and the fundamentally how to view the nature of this book in relation to the Book of Revelation. These attempts to identify the beast or the mark of the beast are also partly

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related to what we call millennialism. Millennialism comes from the number 1000 in Greek. And in the Book of Revelation, there is a very famous passage about the Saints reigning with Christ for 1000 years during which

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Satan is bound in the bottomless pit. So let me um read some parts of this passage. I saw an angel coming down from heaven holding in his hand, the key to the bottomless pit and great

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chain. He sees the dragon, the ancient serpent who is the devil and Satan and bound him for 1000 years. And then um John also, so the saints, they had not worshiped, the saints

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had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their forehead or their hands and they came to life and reigned with Christ 1000 years. So those who refuse the mark of the

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beast, they will be resurrected and they will reign with Christ in this so called millennial kingdom. And after that, Satan will be released again from his prison. So you see why people really wanted to

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figure out, excuse me, who the beast is or what the beast mark is so that they can refuse it. And centered on this revelation passage that talks about the Millennial kingdom. Some people came up

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with a more sophisticated scenario about what's going to happen . This is a basic diagram of this sensational millennialism and within it, there are of course, um some variations. So I'm not saying that this is

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the only configuration, but it might show um some common grounds basically. Um according to this view, true believers will experience rapture that is they will be snatched up and um they are spared while other people

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undergo tribulations on earth that are mentioned in revelation. Then these true believers will be coming back with Christ that the second coming and they will reign on earth for 1000 years as mentioned in revelation 20. Then

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there will be the final battle with Satan who will be ultimately defeated in God's new heaven and new Earth will come. The term pre millennialism means that the return of Christ in this configuration uh will occur before

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the millennial kingdom begins. Hence, pre millennialism. Of course, the term millennialism is not just used in Christianity. It's more widely used in discussions of other religious and cultural movements. One proposes one scholar

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proposes a definition of millennialism this way, millennialism is belief in an imminent transition to a collective salvation in which the faithful will experience well being and the unpleasant limitations of the human condition will be eliminated. The

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collective salvation is often considered to be earthly, but it can also uh it can also be heavenly. The collective salvation will be accomplished either by a divine or superhuman agent alone or with the system of human

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working according to the divine or superhuman will and plan . And in that book, scholars, the contributors talk about four different categories or millennialism, uh categories of millennialism in many cultures and many religious traditions.

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Catastrophic millennialism includes a pessimistic view of human nature and society. So it requires some divine intervention for destruction and renewal. It's similar to pre millennialism in Christian tradition, progressive millennialism. On the contrary, um

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shows some trust in progress and in the divine guidance toward a better future, averted. A apocalyptic is means that if you take the prophetic warning seriously, then the catastrophic or imminent end will be averted somehow

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, then turn into progressive future. Nativist millennialism movements include a variety of millennialism that grew out of colonial and post colonial contexts. So I'm not going to ex um explain everything here. But the lesson from

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that is that to realize, um we tend to think only about Christian millennialism, especially dispensation of pre millennialism that we just saw in the previous slide. But across the world and across cultures, there are

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diverse groups of people who have developed some views about the future and ultimate well being of people. And perhaps this might help us take a step back and think about how we think about and how we interpret

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the Millennial Kingdom passage or passages in the Book of Revelation. Asking the question whether that is the only way to interpret the passage again. What's known to us most widely is some form of dispensation or pre

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millennialism, which was especially popularized by novels like the late Great Planet Earth and the Left Behind series. And there's a couple of characteristics in this version of pre millennial understanding of the Book of Revelation first.

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They tend to leave Revelation, the Book of Daniel or other Old Testament books. And in the New Testament 1st and 2nd Thessalonians or other New Testament books into one linear scenario. For example, as I

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said, the word anti-christ is not in the Book of Revelation. Also, the Political Revelation doesn't have any passage about rapture. Surprisingly, even the Book of Revelation doesn't describe the Armageddon war as the final

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better because the word Armageddon is found in chapter 16 , not in the millennial kingdom passage in chapter 20 or later than that. So with some cherry picking method and creativity, a full-fledged scenario about this feature

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is often established and in turn, that is projected into the text of revelation. Secondly, um they also tend to have a huge emphasis on rapture. Again, rapture is not explicitly mentioned in Revelation.

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It depends on first Thessalonians four. But again, even in that passage, we don't have anything like the scenario that we find in those popular novels or or films. And third, they see strong connections

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between scripture and the modern world, especially focusing on the current political landscape, international affairs and technological development . The Book of Revelation was written 2000 years ago . But now in this interpretation, now, the

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period we live in 21st century or 20th century is the period that is exactly prophesized in the Book of Revelation. We live in the very end of history . We live in the period that we see all

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the fulfillment of biblical prophecy, including that in revelation in front of our very eyes to refute or criticize . Um these forms of free millennial, free millennial readings of revelation in detail is not my main focus

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of this lecture. Um That's done by many other um excellent scholars, especially I recommend um Barbara R , Rosings the rapture exposed. It's a good book . It's them, but it's really informative. And

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at the beginning of that book, Rosing looks back on her interview with ABC World News Tonight. Um And the day the first edition of this book was published was ironically, was the same day as the

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12 Left behind novel, The Glorious Appearing was also released. And Ros Singh said in that interview, God is coming to heal the world not to kill millions of people. God loves the world and God

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will never leave the world behind. So you can find much more in that book. And I want , I don't want to just rehearse everything whether what I want to emphasize is that revelation was written into

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millennia ago and it has been read and interpreted in various ways throughout these 2000 years, we are not the first people who pick up the Book of Revelation and just discover the long hidden scenario about the future

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. And even in our period, reading, revelation is not just limited to this dispensation of reading. So drawing our attention to the possibility of reading revelation in multiple ways would be what I really want to

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do. So let's take a quick look at how revelation was read and in the past in various ways , as we sh we will show shortly, revelations main target was Roman Empire in the first century.

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But in the second century, the Church Father Irons was a bit hesitant to connect the anti-christ figure with the Roman Empire. And remember in all the centuries , still, all the Christians were in very unstable

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situation. This empire es believed that anti-christ will come after the fall of the Roman Empire. So probably it's not near. Um in the second century, there was a sectarian group called Montana and they believed

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that the prophecy of revelation was being fulfilled right now among them. And they believe New Jerusalem will soon be established in Papua in Frigia. In the third century. Another church father origin approached revelation differently for

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origin symbols in revelation allegorically teach about Saul's relationship with God. It's not about literal blended kingdom, famous church Father Gustin in the fourth century, advanced the reading of revelation that influenced late uh later Christian interpreters

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significantly. And it's often called a millennialism for Augustine , the millennial kingdom is not something to come on earth in the future, but the church is present . Eighth century monk beat had a different idea.

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Revelations, visions show the general flow of church history from its conception to its eschatological completion in the 20th century. In the 12th century, Drach of fear was similar. But he operated with um his unique

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notion of the threefold division of the history, the era of the Father, the Son era, and the Spirit era. And he tried to calculate each era. Joachim believed that he was reading he others

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uh his contemporaries were living at the end of the Sun period. Looking forward to the coming of the Spirit era. Soon for many protestant reformers in the 16th century, uh from 14th to 16th century papal

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office and individual Popes were thought to be the anti-christ . Although Revelation again wasn't their favorite book. And from the 17th century, um especially um another important reading of Revelation emerged Hugo Grotius. Um in the

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17th century insists that revelation be read as a message for Christians, only Christians in the ancient Roman Empire rather than directly related to the interpreter's own time. And that is basically similar to what modern scholars his

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historical critical scholars view revelation. So before jumping into that part, historical critical approach, I just want to show two examples of Reformers, Luther and Calvin and both of them didn't like revelation a lot.

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Um First of all, Calvin didn't write um Revelation . Let me check the message. No. Oh , that's me. Keep going. You're fine. Yes, thank you. Um So, first of

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all, Calvin didn't write a commentary on Revelation. He wrote many commentaries um for other books in the Bible. But Revelation was not his choice for Luther . Revelation didn't have the same value as other books

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in the Bible. It's well known that Luther didn't like the letter of James, but that was also the case for Revelation. The left picture um is the table of contents page from Luther's September Testament in

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, in 1522. And I zoomed in the last part and paste it on the right side. And as you see there in the list of 27 books of the New Testament, Luther didn't add numbers to

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four books, treating them a bit different from other 23 books. And these unnumbered books are the letter to the Hebrews, the letter of James, the letter of Jude and the book of Revelation. Luther

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Luther even said about this book of Revelation of John . I leave everyone free to hold his own opinions . I would not have anyone bound to my opinion or judgment. I say what I feel. I

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miss more than one thing in the book and it makes me consider it to be neither apostolic nor prophetic . So back to the question of how to read the Book of Revelation. So what options do we

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have? The diverse reading strategies that appeared for the past 2000 years of reading. Revelation can be categorized into four first, the church historical reading. This is the, this is one of the widespread ways

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in the history of Christianity. According to this reading , the Book of Revelation surveys the whole history of church from its beginning to end. And church's struggle in each age is reflected in the Book of Revelation

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. Second, the future reading futurist reading, sorry . It may be similar to the church history reading . But this futurist reading mainly focuses on the present , present and the near future. The main purpose

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of this reading is to predict what would come to pass in our generation or in the near future into the millennial kingdom. And that is most prominent in the dispensation of pre millennial list reading of Revelation.

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The future. The time of fulfillment is very near third idealist reading. This is also a very common reading in the history of Christianity. The book is understood with reference to universal themes and symbols. And

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according to this reading, Revelation provides readers with spiritual insight that is meaningful for every time and place. And fourth historical critical reading, the book is understood with reference to time and place in which it was

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written. That is in the first century, Roman world Revelation shows us what was happening in that world at that time and how early Christians as marginalized group reacted to that reality among them, among these four

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I would recommend I would encourage you to consider the fourth option seriously. Of course, um It's not the only option. And indeed many interpreters also combine some of these different approaches. But basically, we

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need to start from um the acknowledgment that revelation is a book that was written two and four only Christian communities that lived in the first century world which was ruled by the Roman Empire. And responsible and careful

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reading of Revelations start from taking this fact seriously before jumping into making connections between revelation, symbolic expressions and what we see in the 21st century world. And if we start reading the Book of Revelation historically,

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that is treating um treating it as a document that was written long time ago by an ancient author for specific audience in the author's time. Then we realize these four things. First Apocalypse or Revelation literally is

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a genre of ancient literature too. The Book of Revelation can also be understood as a letter to churches in that world. Three many enigmatic figures and images in the Book of Revelation refer to the Roman Empire

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and its imperial real realities including emperors and imperial collaborators at local levels. Four, the Book of Revelation includes repetitions and recapitulations and it shows a spiral progression , not a linear progression. So let me uh

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take a few minutes to take a look at each of these. So another title of the Book of Revelation is John's Apocalypse, right? And Apocalypse is from the Greek word Apocalypses and it literally means revelation

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. Uh But when we use the term in the title, it refers to a particular genre of writing . What is Apocalypse? According to Old Testament scholar , John Collins, Apocalypse is a genre of revelatory

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literature with a narrative framework in which the revelation is mediated by an other worldly being to a human recipient , disclosing a transcendent reality, which is both temporal in so far as it envisages ecological salvation and is

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special in so far as it involves another supernatural world . So these are two things um to remember from this definition. First, apocalypse is a genre of ancient literature. Therefore, the Book of Revelation,

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however, it looks unique and bizarre is not idiosyncratic . It can be situated along with other Jewish apocalypses from the ancient world. For example, we have other Jewish apocalypses such as Finna second Barok fourth Ezra

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, or even some biblical apocalypses like Daniel, all of which give us interesting opportunities for comparison. Second , although the Book of Revelation in popular culture was exclusively regarded as prophecy about the future, right?

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In fact, Apocalypse in ancient world is not always exclusively about things that will happen in the future, but it also has a lot to do with spatial imagination about about the heavenly realities. Also, in

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many cases, Apocalyptic literature is about the present world of the author or even about the past that the author looked back on. Second, the revelation includes John's letters to the ancient churches, the seven churches

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in Asia Minor, which appear in chapters two and three. But in fact, the letter form is , is not only found in these two chapters, but the entire writing, the book of Revelation is

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set in the epistolary framework. The opening and closing part of Revelation interestingly includes some remarks that make this book look like a letter. I just show you um, this opening part of revelation. So you

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see the Center John, the recipient of the seven churches in Asia and the Greeting Grace and Peace. And that exactly reflects the letter writing convention that you can see in other New Testament letters including especially post

00:33:15.770 - 00:33:38.770

letters. So John was writing to these churches in his time in the first century, not to us directly. And we are eavesdropping their con conversation in 2000 years later. Third. Um If you use

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the historical critical approach, we can also match revelation to what we know about the realities of the first century Roman world, then we can see that the possibility um the possibility that the the beast whose number

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is 666 refers to one of the Roman emperors and a woman sitting on a beast who is also said to be seated on the seven mountains or hills represent the city of Rome in the first century. And

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we can infer that from ancient evidence. The city of Rome is known for its seven hills uh Here you see the coin from the mid or late first century that shows the woman or goddess who personified,

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who personifies. Rome is seated on seven hills of Rome, which is probably, which was very familiar to any person in that world. And it's almost like using bald eagle to represent the United States.

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Even when we don't say the word, the United States or America, people who live in that country in this country knows what this symbolizes. And of course, if we use Hebrew numerology, then the

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number 666 cannot be some modern figures or barcode or Coronavirus vaccines or and so forth. The name of a person represent, represented by 666 is Nero Caesar who persecuted, who was known for persecution of Christians

00:35:13.820 - 00:35:30.650

in the city of Rome in sixties. And the author of revelation uses the number referring either to Nero or to some other emperors after that, who would be needle like such as Domitian. And it's likely

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that the first audience of Revelation also knew what the author was talking about when he was using number. Like this revelation was written for these early Christian communities in Asia Minor who were socially marginalized and politically traumatized

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under Roman imperial authority. And Fourth Revelation, the seven visions like the visions of seals, trumpets bows are not merely linear in a sense that they describe what will happen at the end chronologically, but they

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probably show different acts of different aspects of the same reality. The New Testament scholar Mark Alan Powell points out that the visions in revelation are more um kaleidoscopic than chronological. And the different visions might offer repeated

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depictions of the same events. The one basic story of judgment and salvation is being told over and over again through visions that use different symbols or images to describe the same occurrences. So he's more strictly um

00:36:52.700 - 00:37:09.710

inclined to uh see revelation as a repetition or recapitulation of the same event. Whereas I think still there's some progression in the narrative. So I tend to think that this is a spiral progression includes including um

00:37:09.720 - 00:37:34.740

some kind of repetition. So I think this repetition plus fire progression can be presented um in a diagram like this. So in some, here's the um summary of what I uh have presented to you.

00:37:35.570 - 00:37:54.430

First, revelation has been read in various ways during the last 2000 years by many different people. Two , those reading strategies can be categorized into at least four uh big approaches. First, the church historical

00:37:54.440 - 00:38:13.250

, second, the futurist third, the idealist and the fourth uh the historical critical readings. And the last one is um I think an important approach for our responsible engagement with revelation. Three. If we

00:38:13.260 - 00:38:30.200

read revelation historically, then we realize at least these four aspects that we discussed right before first apocalypse or Revelation is an ancient genre of literature. Second, the Book of Revelation as a letter um to churches

00:38:30.210 - 00:38:46.540

in the first century should be um taken seriously. And third, the Book of Revelation refer refers to the first century Roman world including um imperial realities and fourth repetitions of Fijians. Um It, these,

00:38:46.550 - 00:39:10.420

these characteristics show us uh spiral progression in the narrative , not just a linear singular um chronological progression. Finally, perhaps what we need is asking better questions rather than asking questions. Like does this figure or

00:39:10.430 - 00:39:29.550

that event in our world correspond to what's pro prophesized in revelation. We can ask better questions that will help us become more faithful readers and faithful witnesses. For example, what effects do images and poetics of

00:39:29.560 - 00:39:47.140

revelation create for the audience in our world. Revelation actually can be understood as a form of early Christian religious art power of images. How visual images of revelation artistically create new, a new symbolic world where

00:39:47.310 - 00:40:07.720

um Christians see themselves truly and endure um their suffer struggling, these these aspects uh should be uh really explored. How does revelation inspire us to live faithfully uh with this symbolic world in our uh real world

00:40:09.180 - 00:40:25.190

, we're talking about ultimate reality. And it's, it's always beyond our human understandings. We can only see what's revealed um poetically in this text. Another set of questions would be like this. How can

00:40:25.200 - 00:40:49.040

we overcome some harsh rhetoric in revelation in revelation? We have a lot of polemical and violent passages like we versus them mentality uh found in revelation chapters two and three or passages that include misogyny in revelation two

00:40:49.050 - 00:41:07.680

, but also in revelations, chapters, revelation chapter 17 and 18 or violence in the name of divine judgment that is upon the woman Babylon, the Great Hollow, that is the gendered, sexualized and class

00:41:07.690 - 00:41:25.460

body or um exclusion throughout revelation, but especially found in chapters 21 and 22. So even in the new heaven and new Earth, the New Jerusalem, there will be the area outside this blessed city wall

00:41:25.480 - 00:41:42.460

. Um And there will be those who are excluded from this blessed status. So how could we read them more? How could we read these passages more ethically in our context where always we see polarization and

00:41:42.470 - 00:41:57.540

exclusion. We do not have good answers for all these questions. I do not have good answers for all these questions, but I believe that um we do not have to defend the Book of Revelation for

00:41:57.550 - 00:42:13.910

sure, because we do not worship this book. We do not worship the witness of this book that John gave us at the end of revelation. Um John ties um John tries to bow before the angel

00:42:13.920 - 00:42:31.110

who disclosed all these things to him, but angel interestingly rather says, don't worship me but worship God . So the Book of Revelation is a particular witness to God's ultimate future, poetically perceived and represented by

00:42:31.120 - 00:42:51.140

John, the seer and communicated to John's communities in Asia Minor who were struggling with marginalization and social isolation in Christian faith. We confess that this particular witness is part of our Christian canon God's written word.

00:42:52.570 - 00:43:17.780

Still, this written word invites our questions, our imaginations, our serious and genuine engagement so that we can also be faithful followers of Christ in our world . Thank you so much for your attention. Yes

00:43:17.790 - 00:43:30.720

. Thank you for that. Thank you Don Young . A oh no, you can come off me bishop. We got questions. So absolutely. Thank you immensely uh for that. Uh Dong Yung,

00:43:30.730 - 00:43:39.430

appreciate it, truly, truly, truly fascinated by uh I think just the New Testament and its scholarship and interpretation over the years. Um Again, as I mentioned in the chat, uh if you've got

00:43:39.440 - 00:43:51.540

questions about stuff by all means, feel free to put those in. Um Dong Kung, I think one of my questions was um trying to figure out what's the best way to be able to frame it

00:43:51.550 - 00:44:00.400

. So um I think when I as an adjunct to a different institution, uh one of the things that I do when I talk about kind of a biblical understanding of diversity, uh I just kind of

00:44:00.410 - 00:44:09.950

start with the naked word, but let's just look from Genesis to revelation and help folks to kind of see that ethnic and cultural diversity is all throughout the scriptures. I think Moses is a great example of

00:44:09.960 - 00:44:21.510

that. He's tri he's ethnically Hebrew, he has an Egyptian education, he's in an interracial marriage. Uh We see Miriam and Aaron having major problems with that, it goes on and on and on.

00:44:21.520 - 00:44:30.560

And so once folks start to see that it becomes clear, uh I think when you look over uh previous centuries, you can see in each generation, I think throughout history, they took it very literally

00:44:30.570 - 00:44:39.220

kind of like you were talking about at the beginning . Uh At some point, we began to have kind of our own uh national identity in terms of interpreting scripture. I think this generation now was really

00:44:39.220 - 00:44:50.770

about not just kind of a national identity, but an ethnic and cultural identity as well too. But when it comes to revelation, um there's still kind of, it feels like there's still very much a

00:44:50.780 - 00:45:00.860

futurist reading on it, like you were mentioning before , it feels like every time there's a hurricane or a tornado or there's a presidential election only in the United States, like, you know, other nations

00:45:00.870 - 00:45:13.300

can have elected officials and that's not going to uh some of the anti-christ, right, or the second coming. But if there's a presidential election in the United States and your candidate doesn't win, that's when

00:45:13.310 - 00:45:22.510

the end times come. And so I'm curious, why do you feel like or what's what have you noticed? Give us some thoughts and reflections on as many books as we have as many commentaries as we

00:45:22.520 - 00:45:37.330

have as many professors as we've had over the years that are continuing to dig down and to illuminate the text. Why do we have such a, I'll call it myopic and reductionist approach to revelation. In

00:45:37.340 - 00:45:47.380

other words, how have we grown to understand national identity and ethnic and cultural identity and um background and just a better understanding of the scriptures overall? But when it comes to revelation, as soon as it

00:45:47.390 - 00:45:58.730

rains, people say this is the end times that we're all going to die. Why are we stuck there? Especially when so many folks are rejecting um kind of this notion of absolute truth. But again

00:45:58.740 - 00:46:07.830

, when revelation comes in, that prophetic literature approaches , we return to that hyper spiritual framework. What's going on there? Why is they were gravitating towards that as opposed to using some of the tools that

00:46:07.840 - 00:46:24.740

we currently have to interpret revelation? Well, thank you for the question. I think the language of revelation um in part um causes such readings. So I, I understand that um but at the same

00:46:24.750 - 00:46:44.850

time, I try to read revelation consciously and intentionally in a different mode. So for example, uh I'm just thinking about sums. So in Psalms, we have lot of, you know, passages about

00:46:45.090 - 00:47:02.540

divine judgment or punishment against enemies, uh lots of passages about current, struggling with God's people, um lamentations, um all these things, but usually we do not use sums um in the way that we

00:47:02.550 - 00:47:20.030

use revelation, right? Like construct a sort of teleological um scenario that can be readily applied to our own political situation. But we understand that Psalms, language of Psalms is a prayer or song to God

00:47:20.590 - 00:47:35.780

. So if we try to read revelation in that mode, and partly revelation is also meant to be read in worship setting, that's in, that's explicit in chapter one. So read aloud that's mentioned in

00:47:35.790 - 00:47:51.210

chapter one. So uh I think this book, especially for all the communities or the original community that received this book, they were probably reading this book out loud in their own worship setting. It's part

00:47:51.220 - 00:48:07.780

of liturgy, not part of sort of making political speculation outside. Of course, they lived in the harsh Roman imperial um realities. Uh But what they are doing with this book is not just making some

00:48:07.990 - 00:48:30.850

sort like a concrete um prophecies about when that happens . But this book's uh real purpose is to encourage them um to hold their faith strongly um looking for God's ultimate future. So, yes, I think

00:48:30.860 - 00:48:46.100

the futuristic reading cannot be ignored because this book is about the future. That's that I think absolutely true . But probably we could use that future image, the hope in a different mode than, you know

00:48:46.110 - 00:49:00.680

, people usually tend to use it in our, in our world. It's a helpful framework. Thank you for that immensely too. It's just, it's fascinating. I appreciated that illustration to around uh because

00:49:00.690 - 00:49:08.860

Psalms is such a very common book that most folks have a lot of experience with. I remember as a kid, my mom quoted the 23rd Psalms exiting the freeway to go to Douglas Elementary, both where

00:49:08.870 - 00:49:17.290

I went to school and where she taught. And so that's really where I learned it. Um And so I been familiar with the songs probably for all of my life or it's the oldest book that I

00:49:17.300 - 00:49:27.260

have recollection of. And so I think I appreciate how you said like Palm um or even Proverbs for that matter, right? Like there's the wisdom literature or the poorer literature, we know how to read

00:49:27.270 - 00:49:37.000

and interpret those and having that same posture of humility . I think when we approach revelation for its interpretation , that's just, that's fascinating and absolutely wonderful. Um Let me double check and make sure we don't

00:49:37.010 - 00:49:49.100

have any questions from either folks that are in the audience there and to make sure. And yep, that's a great place for us to be able to pause too because revelation is so jam packed with wisdom

00:49:49.110 - 00:49:58.760

and prophetic literature and it has uh multiple um ways of interpreting it. I think you're spot on. I loved all of those different frameworks. Uh And also too, as you mentioned too, just making

00:49:58.770 - 00:50:07.810

sure that we study in community. Uh I think whenever we're isolated from each other and just trying to interpret a text on our own, whether that's ethnic uh ethnic or cross cultural community or by gender or

00:50:07.820 - 00:50:19.990

socio-economic status, we're just wiser when we learn together . So just thank you. Uh Doctor Jong for a helpful, helpful, helpful understanding of revelation. Um join us uh not next week because we're going

00:50:20.000 - 00:50:31.200

to have next week off. But the following week on October 24th, uh Doctor Rock Brothers will be uh presenting to us from suffering to glory that Jesus as the son of man and Mark's Gospel. This

00:50:31.210 - 00:50:42.480

session will consider the historical and theological development of the son of man along with his connections to the day of Yahweh. How was Jesus perceived as the son of Man by his followers and how the title informed

00:50:42.490 - 00:50:52.280

his ministry and the formation of the all the church will be considered. So, just another helpful lecture from our faculty here at Austin Seminary. Again, Doctor Jong, thank you very much uh blessings.

00:50:52.290 - 00:50:55.660

Everyone. Hope you have a fantastic week and we'll see you in two weeks. Take care. Thank