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We are recording today's session. So welcome to this edition of Cultivating Ideas in which we are highlighting Austin Seminary faculty to share with us some of the ideas that uh get them excited, keep them awake at

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night and that they want to share with other people . Our presenter today is Doctor Asante Todd and he will give a presentation and then we'll have some time for questions and answers and we will be finished in

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one hour. Uh Asante is um a native Texan from Midland Texas. And so he did come to the University, the University of Texas for his bachelor's degree. And then he came to Austin Seminary to

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earn his master of divinity and then moved on to Vanderbilt University for his phd in Ethics. We were delighted to be able to have Asante come back to our campus to teach ethics and he's currently Associate Professor

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of Christian Ethics. Um I think it's worth telling you that in addition to being a scholar and an academic, Asante has worked in the Texas State legislature , he's worked for the Austin area Urban League and

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perhaps most challenging of all, he's been a youth minister. So he has been well prepared for whatever life throws at him. Professor Todd's general area of research is public theology and he's particularly interested in the

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ways in which theological and religious commitments impact public debate , policy, politics and opinion. He desires to think with religious communities about social consciousness and democratic responsibility . Yes, Melissa. How are you? Good

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. Thank you. Yeah, I was having a bit of trouble logging with the video. There was some uh glitch happening but yes, I'm here, present. Thank you. Uh Good morning and good

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afternoon rather, it's good to be here with you all. Uh Happy to be with you on this occasion. Melissa. Thank you for the wonderful introduction . Uh And you're right, I think probably the

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most uh challenging and amazing thing that I'm proud of on my resume is Youth ministry uh that still uh uh brings in so many rewards uh from the work I did so many years ago. Uh But I

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also appreciate uh my uh place here at Austin Seminary and the ways in which I get to have these kinds of conversations with you. All those of you who have seen the previews for this webinar know that

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I'll be talking a bit about ecological ethics and about the uh uh ethics of e ecological respect. And I'll also be bringing in not only uh particular viewpoints from certain scholars on this uh on these questions,

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but also uh contemporary cultural products, most specifically uh the film Avatar Two, which is a, a well known and globally recognized uh box office hit that attempts to address many of the issues that we,

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we're also gonna be talking about today. Uh So we'll sort of use Avatar Two as a bit of a cultural case study. If you will a case study in public theology for these questions around the ethics

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of ecological respect. I wanna begin uh by, first of all, thanking you for coming out today . Uh I know that you could have done so many more important things. And so I appreciate you

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all taking the time uh to be present on today . I want to begin by talking a bit about why we're having this conversation on ecology and environment in the first place and this will will cause us or

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require us to go a bit into uh some of the contemporary concerns about environment and ecology. Most scholars will say that we are uh well within uh what they would call an ecological crisis, something of an

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ecological crisis. If we're not for, for many scholars, if we're not, well within that, then it's at least for them on the horizon. But uh I think it's pretty compelling. Uh some

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of the side that we're seeing in terms of ecological cri crisis. Uh First major extinction of species uh that person will say is originated by human action uh In, in the last uh 50 years, I

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call this the Anthropocene, you may have heard this term uh used uh before. Uh things like deforestation , uh pollution, uh various forms of post industrial chemical waste. All of these things are raising environmental

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and ecological concerns to the point of crisis. And so people are noticing things like soil erosion, uh desertification in particular areas of the planet uh largely as a result uh from what we will say as overuse

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of resources or, or overuse of materials. So there are also other factors at work and then I won't go into all the other factors. Uh But maybe a few other factors are things like uh rapid

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growth in human population, right? We've got these growing mass societies uh over the past few decades. Um We've got all of these various technological advancements and enhancements that aren't always the best at being regulated or

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we aren't always the best at predicting or anticipating some of the consequences of these technologies and so frequently. Uh or from time to time, we may have certain kinds of ecological or environmental uh incidents or accidents

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or, or, or uh modes of destruction. And so in all these different ways and in other ways, scholars are acknowledging what we are calling an environmental crisis, right? So this is why we're

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having this conversation uh in the first place. The film Avatar Two, I think attempts to get at some of this. And again, I'm gonna come back to Avatar Two closer to the end of my

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lecture. But I wanted to briefly mention just a couple of descriptive points about the film uh that was released uh after about 10 or so 13 years or so. Uh work between the, the, the

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first Avatar and the sequel, uh the film is titled Avatar The Way of Water. And as you know, if you've seen it, it centers around uh at least two primary characters, Jake Sully and

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NRI who are played by s actor Sam Worthington and also uh a actress Zoe Saldanha. Uh film is uh received rave reviews uh lovely. Uh There have also been maybe a few criticisms which we may uh

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revisit again later in the lecture, but the film is known uh and recognized for its fascinating ability to bring almost another natural world into life, right? To, to make it sort of a reality and

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in a way to show appreciation for the natural world , right? And a lot of these environmental concerns , possibly with the hopes that our environmental uh sensibilities will be renewed. And for those uh who are

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movie buffs and, and big fans of avatar, you probably know uh that there is an avatar three being planned, I believe for sometime December 2024 release . And so maybe that will be a third or

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a second conversation we can revisit in the future on these uh themes. But before that, I want , I wanna talk a bit about the ways in which some uh theologians are responding to some of these

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issues. And at this point, Melissa, I've got a, a couple of slides that I wanna show and I wanna make sure that I do that . I'm gonna share my screen if that's OK.

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Great. So we've talked a bit about the environmental crisis and I want to move on to some of the themes of some of the theologians, contemporary theologians are talking about it. when I say contemporary meeting

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within the last half century, that that's contemporary. I would, I would argue for uh theologian and our first theme, I want to talk about this , this idea of relation. Uh this, this

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idea, this concept is lifted up uh by a theologian by the name of John B Cobb Junior. This is a picture of the theologian Mr Cobb here and he is recognized as one of the leading uh

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process theologians. And this essentially means that he believes that all of reality may be described as some form of process, right? Some form of becoming, all things are in the form of becoming rather than

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simply existing in a static, static state, permanently or not existing or all things are in a state of becoming. And secondly, and this is a key point. Cobb Junior believes that all things are

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essentially related, right? There is a central relatedness to us all. And I think that you see this in the film as well, I think you see this in the movie as well. You see

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this whenever you hear the saying, for example, we live in A Y and A Y lives in us. This is a big, big saying in the film, a big theme in the film.

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And this really is communicating uh a, a truth that is often accepted across a wide range of religious uh commitments and faith traditions is essentially that in some shape, form or fashion, we are in the

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spirit and the spirit lives in us, right? That's one way of, of understanding uh this form of relationships. This essentially means that interdependence is a key part of who we are. Cop ju recall

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this the ecological attitude, right? Kinship with our creatures, kinship and respect with our creatures, right ? So this is one of the key points that this film I thought did a great job of lifting

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up in so many different ways, ecological attitude. The second key point very simple is this the the point of the theme of recognition and this theme emerges , I think time and time again throughout the film

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. But I want to highlight this as articulated by eco womanist theologian Melody L Harris. She wrote a text called eco womanism that deals with questions of environmental justice specifically as it relates to African American communities and

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African American women more specifically, and Harris goes through and describes the ways in which there are parallel what she calls parallel oppressions, right? Parallel oppressions that exist between the way in which nature is many times

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misused and the ways in which certain populations are sometimes misused or abused. And so Harris will say that there is a need for recognition of populations that are traditionally or historically underrepresented or misused or exploited for Harris

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. This means something very particular. It means first , we need to acknowledge the ways in which communities of color have al already been participating in certain kinds of ecological and environmental movements, even if they were

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not acknowledged as such. And I think one great example that Harris lifts up and I will leave you with. This. One is uh Harris highlights the ecological dimensions of the 19 sixties sanitation Memphis sanitation worker

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stride that was led by the Reverend Doctor Martin Luther King Junior. And she talks about the ways that we often uh miss, we often understand this movement , perhaps not misunderstand. We often understand this movement

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primarily as a labor movement. And yes, it was that, but perhaps it was also a movement for ecology and environment and that sanitation workers were concerned about neighborhoods, environments and and so forth. Recognition

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also means that we need to begin to ask if there are possible prejudices or implicit biases in things like our economic development or in our even in our environmental movements, right? Is it the case possibly that

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we are failing to recognize the ways in which some of these attitudes and implicit biases continue to pervade some of our best efforts to deal with environmental and intercultural concerns. And then Harris says, we also need

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to acknowledge the present environmental crisis that is already occurring among communities of color. Again, Harris would say we could, we could go back as early as but perhaps even before the 19 sixties during the Memphis

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sanitation workers strike. And Harris would say in African American and other uh minoritized communities that environmental concerns are already pressing right there already is a crisis. And it is indeed the case that should environmental concerns worsen

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, that it will be communities that are impoverished or communities of color that will likely receive the brunt or the worst impact of these uh environmental dynamics. So Harris again is calling for recognition and I think we

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saw in the film, the ways in which not only there was recognition but misrecognition and thus destruction of the environment, destruction of the natural world. Uh mis appreciation for the natural world. I've talked about

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relation, I've talked about recognition. Now I want to talk about a final point. This is religious biodiversity. And I'm lifting this up from eco feminist theologian Yvonne Guevara out of Sao Paulo Brazil Garra is

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concerned that there is not enough respect for the ways in which other religions and other ways of life are indeed part of ecology, right? Ecology does indeed include the natural world, but it also includes other

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social worlds that are perhaps different than ours. And So Garro wants to say that we need to learn to find ways to respect different ways of life, different ways of understanding the divine, different ways of

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speaking about the divine. And she's especially partial to small faith communities that really try to develop strong bonds of attachment, ecology. For a few seconds. I'm just about done for a few seconds. I

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wanna lift up like a brief thought or reflection on what I like to call the avatar factor, right ? I think the avatar uh two way of water is an excellent film in many respects, does a

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great job of lifting up environmental concerns. But there is this issue of I like to call the avatar factor at work. I think in this film, what is the avatar factor? Well, there's an

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interesting dynamic going on in the in the film. One is that the movie I Cameron wanted, wanted to represent the world or nature as an in spirited body, right? We are in a Y A

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one. As in other words, the world itself is inspirited is not just a simple machine that we can use at will. This I think was the main and most distinctive and important ecological point of the

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film. But there is an irony in the film and is that Avatar both one and two are produced with such a heavy investment in these virtual and technological realities which to a certain extent reproduce the idea that

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the body can be manipulated and bent in any way ? In other words, is there a reproduction of some of the problematic ways in which the environment is viewed? What is going on with the avatar factor

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. On the one hand, right, we talk , we talk and think about this thing called the avatar factor. On the one hand, the film does do a great job of taking us beyond the

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world. I think of crude competition. It's highly critical of that and it suggests a deeper shared unity among us. On the other hand, this message of unity is complicated because even as it's communicated,

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there is a manipulation of bodies such that it is possibly the case that actual real human and natural bodies are left out of the film. What do I mean by that? I mean, there are certain

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places you may go on the internet and read certain perspectives on the film, maybe specifically from indigenous populations that will say that Cameron perhaps should have made the indigenous populations more recognizably indigenous rather than blue. And

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in fact, there's even some language among certain indigenous populations that Cameron may have committed a cultural misappropriation called quote unquote blue face, right? Where you are taking the indigenous person and painting their faces blue,

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right? And of course, if you know much about contemporary cultural criticism or even just about everyday language , you know that this is a play on language that is popular in African American culture known as blackface

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, right? Where one puts on a mask in a certain uh racially derogatory mode and so certain indigenous populations have question, right, the ways in which indigenous populations are represented in this film, right?

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There's this avatar factor, right? That as we move away from the significance of the body, questions of actual historical bodies in our present contemporary moment. Rise to the top. Now, am I saying

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that Avatar Two is a complete cultural misappropriation. I'm not saying that I'm not making that argument. What I am saying is that perhaps it is the case that a bit more concrete care and attention to actual

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indigenous populations might play a stronger role in future cultural productions. And perhaps these cultural productions should also be rooted and continue conversations with indigenous peoples and indigenous lands . And I believe that some of these conversations have

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already been taking place. But I think perhaps these need to continue and perhaps even increase, right? These are some of the ways in which this film might be able to deal with this avatar factor.

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And then maybe finally, maybe the film could do with a little bit less quote unquote touching up, right? And I say this as a novice film critic, I don't know much about film. Uh

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But I do know that uh according to the directors , there are only literally two scenes in this film that were not quote unquote touched up by C G I, right? Maybe not even two full scenes

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, just two elements which I thought was ironic given that the film is about nature, right? And so there is an interesting way in which the relationship between technology and nature in this film may do something

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to subvert the message that it is intending to display . But having said that I love the film, it's a great film. I think it takes us places that we have never been and it really does

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. I think instill in us an appreciation for the ecological attitude lifted up by John B Cobb. Junior recognition of different cultures and peoples lifted up by Harris . And also this idea of religious biodiversity lifted up

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by Yvonne Garra. That's all I have for you today. I'm happy uh to uh open up our conversation. Thank you for taking the time again to be with me this morning this afternoon and Melissa maybe

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now it's appropriate that I turn it over to you . Great. Thank you, Asante. Um Will you stop sharing your screen for the question and answer period so that we can see you maybe? All

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right. Well, Asante, I back before you got to the film and you were talking about uh Ivana Barra. I would like to hear a little bit more about this. Why is she calling this

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religious biodiversity and not just religious diversity? Yeah, that's a great question. Uh She's trying to attend and maybe not trying, but she is attending to uh the natural and the the bodily, the material

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uh dimensions of what we mean when we talk about diversity, even in a religious sense, uh it is often the case that when we talk about spirit or transcendence, that we leave the body behind.

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Right? And again, I think this is one of the issues that Avatar was struggling with. What do you do with the body? Is it important ? Is it not important? Right. You have

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Jake Sally going into another avatar body. The whole concept even is a bit ironic, right? The idea of Avatar is a spirit both in the body but also removed from the body, right? So

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uh I think Garra is wanting to stress the idea that the material world is important and it is important even uh in a biological sense, right? Such that we for, for Yarra, we are unified

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and we share kinship even biologically, right? This is her point that it even extends to biology, which is frequently used, especially in conversations about nature and environment to create lines of division and segregation,

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right? So Gar is wanting to say no, even our biology is set up in a way that we are all connected in a certain kind of kinship . We are all part of what she would call

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this open evolutionary process where we kind of don't really know where we're headed right on some of these questions and some of these uh larger themes. But she wants to be sure to stress because the spirit and

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she'll use language of Trinity because the Trinity is in the world. This should change the contours of our relationships among peoples and cultures, right? This should change even the contours of our relationships with ourselves,

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right? The ways in which we relate to ourselves and perhaps some unhealthy ways and it should change the ways that we relate to the environment and the natural world. Thank you. That was, yeah,

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I mean, so in some way, it sounds like you're saying, maybe in the popular common way , we talk about ecological crisis, we think of it as the created world or the, you know

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, we think of it as the uh not including the human as part of the ecological, not just as a factor in it, but as really connected to each other um in ways that we don't typically

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imagine. And so it sounds like she's really just kind of blowing open. What it, what this idea of everything being connected is, is not just the trees in the water, but it's the cells

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in us and the molecules. And that's exactly right . And, and this is not to, to paint an idyllic or romantic picture of the world, right? Gar is gonna say, yeah, just

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because we're connected, doesn't mean that we are all going to fall into a pattern uh holding hands and singing kumbaya for example. But it does mean that if we want to even talk about being quote unquote

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realistic about things that it's not just the case, right? We, we can't just say that the life in the world is a simple narrative of, of law and too and competition. Garro will say

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there, there's definitely some of that in the world , but there's also something else I think for Garra , I think this is what she's wanting to, to give us a bit of a nuanced reading on

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this thing called uh Nature and Life. Um So I think in a way, even the, the um reaction of the indigenous peoples that you described to the film kind of shows how we are all connected

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, you know, you can't, I mean, they're kind of saying no, you can't just take this part of us and create something, put it , you know, transfer it to a different world

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in a way that separates us from, separates it from who we are. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. What they're asking and what they're asking in what ways the film is living into his message

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, in what ways perhaps it is falling short. Um And that's where, but that's where we can use this really good theological idea that we live in a fallen world where nothing is perfect, right?

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Even the art that's created, it's gonna, it's gonna conflict with things that, that's right. And , and again, I would say, I think the theological idea that we live in a fallen world

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is important but it's also in Gabara. If you uh again, she wrote a text uh called Longing For Running Water where she's talking about some of these religious, these theological ideas uh specifically as persons uh

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in Sao Paulo Brazil, perhaps deal with them. And she says, yes, the world is falling , but we should not fall into the trap of a narrative of, of gloom and doom, right

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? That all is lost, right? We need to begin to hold. Uh yes, there is a crisis, we need to hold that intention with the possibility of struggle and progress. Right? Again

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, there there are problems. But for Gabara, this is still an open evolutionary process, right? We we don't fully know what exactly will be the end game. We can predict some consequences based on

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certain kinds of patterns, but none of us can predict the end, none of us can predict the future. And so the bar is saying, let's remember that this thing called life is an open process

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, right? We don't know what the end of the story will be and perhaps we should begin to be a bit more open to conversation with one another , beginning with respect, right? Just respect for

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one another and slowly move into conversation uh for various forms of diversity. But biodiversity also includes Melissa, uh animals, right? Plans things like that, right? Yeah. So we have a question in

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the chat um that says, so how do you think this religion en environment and environmental movement is in the properties in Texas that exist as wildlife habitats. So as we think about animals as being part of

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this, are we following a healthy and sustainable trend toward creating habitats? Thank you. That, first of all, that is a great question. Uh past pastor mayor. I appreciate that. I will

00:31:03.740 - 00:31:17.380

say that I am not an expert on uh wildlife habitats with respect to ecological issues. Um You know , when you, when I read that question, my, the first thought that came to me was

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, was something that I almost named this talk. And uh what I almost named this talk was Save Zilker Park, right? Uh Because anybody who's driving around the city of Austin has probably seen these signs

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that say save Zilker Park. And for those who are not in Austin, Zilker Park is a his , uh I, I don't know that it is officially a historic site, but it is for all

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intents and purposes, culturally speaking, a historic site is a natural spring located near the downtown Austin area that has been in Austin for as long as anyone can remember. And, and it's been untouchable in

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terms of development and things like this. But it is the case that this year beginning this summer, you begin to see signs go up in Austin saying save Zilker Park. So I'm not sure about wildlife

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habitats and, and I think that is an important conversation, but I will say even our habitats, the ones that we consider valuable and culturally uh worth cultural preservation, they themselves are in jeopardy, right

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? And so I think that that is symbolic, right, for a larger dynamic, not to say that all wildlife habitats are in danger. But I do think it's symbolic of a general trend that we

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need to pay attention to. Um And of course , I think there are the uh stereotypical stories that are sometimes true, right? Of, of rabid development plans that do very little to uh maintain concerns

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for long term sustainability and things like that are primary concerned about uh turning around a quick profit rather than preserving the health and the natural ecology and relationships within the environment. Maybe that's one thing that I would

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say just in general about wildlife habitats, but I think that applies, generally speaking, these fingers would say that if your primary intention is to go in there and generate a problem without any regard to the

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community, that's probably one of the primary issues. And what you need to do is try and pay attention to the relationships that are already there and the ways in which there is already an ecology at work

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such that you don't disturb something vital, right? For that community and possibly even for communities beyond this community, right? Because you don't know how many communities depend on this community. So it's about doing

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your ecological research and saying who and what connections are linked in this network before you begin to do these things, I think that might be one way uh to approach some of these questions. Yeah. And

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I will also say save Zer Park. Anybody else have a question? Yes, I I do. Um If, if avatar is a spiritual place in this context, how uh who, who gets license

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to say what a person should look like and what is good representation? It is spiritual. Thank you . Will. I I think that is a great question. I think each of the thinkers that I

00:34:49.590 - 00:35:04.080

lifted up, right? Cobb, Junior Paris and Gabara would ask you a question every turn, they would say, what do you mean by spiritual, right? Do you mean spirit as separated from the

00:35:04.090 - 00:35:16.390

body or do you mean in spirited body? Right ? Maybe a small distinction, but a significant one because if spirit is in the actual body, then at least to a degree, right? This gets

00:35:16.400 - 00:35:29.730

complicated, the body matters, which body matters. And so this is where you get indigenous populations saying they would say yes, this is a spiritual place and our bodies matter in that spiritual place, right

00:35:29.740 - 00:35:40.310

? Our body, our native American by our black body should be in that spiritual place as opposed to a blue body, right? Or or alongside a blue body, right? So this is maybe one

00:35:40.320 - 00:35:58.680

way uh that a spiritualist might respond that saw a deep connection between the spirit and the body Right? So if it's a spiritual place that doesn't necessarily mean it's a place beyond materiality and the body, right

00:35:58.690 - 00:36:14.540

? That's a, that's a debate and a conversation that I think this film is having. Uh but for me, the theologians that I live it up because it's a spiritual place and because all of our

00:36:14.550 - 00:36:28.720

bodies, we regardless of color are participating in the spirit, it matters that all of our bodies are present in certain ways, right? This is what some of these thinkers would say. Thank you.

00:36:34.520 - 00:36:44.230

Could you repeat that last sentence? You said asante ? Because all of our, because it is a spiritual place, it is a spiritual, I think I said something like it is a spiritual place and

00:36:44.240 - 00:36:57.530

all of our bodies participate in that spiritual place. And so it's important that all of our bodies are there or represented as being there. Right? Right . And so I, you know, maybe just

00:36:58.240 - 00:37:14.720

uh another cultural example that we could pull from a AAA big text a few years ago is Michelle Alexander's uh the New Jim Crow, right? And she criticized this idea of color blindness, right? The

00:37:14.730 - 00:37:24.860

idea that quote unquote race doesn't matter uh X Y Z. So we're, we're learning that we have to talk about this in a very nuanced way, right? We have to pay attention to the time

00:37:24.870 - 00:37:35.640

, the place, the situation because it matters in certain ways and in certain ways it doesn't. But sometimes we have to talk about intersectionality, right? How does class fit in? How does gender fit

00:37:35.650 - 00:37:47.010

in? So we have to be careful about how we're talking about this. But in this particular case , I wonder if those persons who are criticizing this film on that particular point had a point, right

00:37:47.020 - 00:37:57.260

? That yes, maybe it's a case that uh some of these actors should have been in their own bodies. What, what would the film have been like if these characters weren't blue but in their own

00:37:57.270 - 00:38:07.160

bodies? You know, maybe that's one way to look at this. Uh Zoe Saldanha, an African American woman, Jake Sully, uh Sam Worthington, uh Anglo male, right? That may have completely

00:38:07.170 - 00:38:35.750

changed the dynamics of the film. Have they not got into the avatar bodies? Right. So, um so, so when is there a point when the quest for spiritual understanding or um spiritual identity kind

00:38:35.760 - 00:38:59.910

of quenches the imagination? Where is, is there a place for an imagination in these spiritual places or even in these this um ecological crisis? Oh, thank you again for that question. Well, when

00:38:59.920 - 00:39:08.790

you, when you say imagination, I wanna be clear what you're saying. Are you asking if there's a place for imagination beyond the body, beyond the natural world? Is it, is this what you're

00:39:08.800 - 00:39:25.780

asking? Well, I mean, uh it could be beyond, it could also be um creation. Like what, what are the possibilities um where, how are there ways that we can can overcome scarcity

00:39:25.910 - 00:39:44.990

. Is there, is there new ways of thinking um wonder is, is, is a word that's , that's popping up. Yeah. Well, I I think, you know, the the general the

00:39:45.000 - 00:39:58.920

general point I think of, of all of these , I think, I think avatar two which share this in common with these other films is that we are created in the image of the spirit, right

00:39:59.130 - 00:40:17.860

? And because we're created in the image of the spirit that this gives significance and meaning to all of us, regardless of the differences that also persist among us, right? Different religious traditions have different ways

00:40:17.870 - 00:40:34.660

of accounting for this, right? And it's important , I think for us as Christians to begin to investigate our own language about how we talk about other people and other cultures and other faith traditions, right

00:40:34.670 - 00:40:47.900

? This is one way that theology plays a role , right? Um I often ask my students in my courses, a very general question and a very difficult question. The one that I even get to

00:40:47.910 - 00:41:02.040

wrestle with, how do you talk about the world in your sermons? Right. That's a big question . It's almost everything, right? But each of us talks about the world in a certain way,

00:41:02.050 - 00:41:12.690

right? Such that if you went back and looked at your sermons, you probably notice a pattern in the way that you describe the world. Are you describing it as completely falling, completely lost? There's

00:41:12.700 - 00:41:22.540

nothing we can do about it. Well, if the sphere is not in the world, what does that say about other people that are not, not part of our group? Right? But if we're

00:41:22.550 - 00:41:30.560

acknowledging the spirit, the presence of the spirit in the world, that God cannot be contained, we already see this in the Old Testament, right? That God cannot be contained in a tent or in

00:41:30.570 - 00:41:43.460

a temple that God goes where God desires, right ? God visits these places, God dwells in these places, but God may not be contained by these places, right? And I think this is what

00:41:43.470 - 00:42:07.210

key a key point that it is important for us as Christians to keep in mind such that the activity of the spirit may be present in spaces beyond the church. Thank you. Thank you. Will anybody

00:42:07.220 - 00:42:34.450

else have a question? Comment? OK. Thank you so much, Doctor Todd. It's been very stimulating and really appreciate your time and your thought about this and we will see you next time, everybody

00:42:35.160 - 00:42:37.650

. Bye bye. Thank you, Melissa. Thank