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OK, we are going to go ahead and get started. Welcome, welcome to this webinar, Sign , Sealed, and Delivered. So baptism and deliverance from Evil, that's the title for this webinar,

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and here we are on January 10th, which is fitting those of us in the Western tradition. Uh , this is coming after Epiphany, after the celebration of the Lord's baptism, and for some in the

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eastern traditions, depending on the calendar, we are in the after feast of Theophany. So it, uh, with the great blessing of the waters. So this is a timely topic to talk about baptism

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at this point in the year, and this event is sponsored by Austin Presbyterian Theological Seminary. Our, uh, center for lifelong learning. So on today's call we have our associate dean for Lifelong Learning Shaun

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Watkins, and he's in the background making things happen , but later on when we're uh doing question and answer, he will, he will help organize some of that and also on the call today we have

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. Of our steadfast Michael McFerrin, who is the program coordinator for Lifelong Learning, also, uh, behind the scenes making things happen, and I'm particularly grateful to both of them because they even did work

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, uh, for the good of this webinar over break to send out registration materials and announcements, so , uh, indebted and grateful to both of you . This webinar is also in part made possible by

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the Stanley Robertson Hall Memorial Fund, and I think many on this call have fond remembrance for Stan Hall , professor of liturgy at Austin Presbyterian Theological Seminary. He would be very glad that we are delving into

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baptismal waters, baptismal topics today, so it's great to be able to say his name at this at this moment. So I think uh that I've I've glanced at the registration list and I recognize many names

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. Uh this is my 20th year teaching at Austin Seminary, and I'm the Reverend Doctor Jennifer Lord, and I serve in the Dorothy B. Vicky Chair for homiletics and liturgical studies. And back in the

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day when there was discussion about this chair. Uh , the administrators were asking me, was I a homiletician or was I a liturgist? Which one was I? And I intentionally chose a doctoral program here

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in, I'm in California right now, and in Berkeley, California, the graduate Theological Union, because it allowed us to work in both of those disciplines . But the way I've come to describe myself is

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I really think I am at home. Um, feeling most alive when I am immersed in the work of liturgical and I understand preaching, um, and talk about it as it happens in the context of

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worship and then thinking about history and ritual of liturgies and all of that, uh, but, but trying to understand that from a liturgical theology point. A succinct way to say that, and I don't

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know if you ever knew this, is that when I was in junior high, I was collecting the Sunday bulletins and the sermons, so maybe, right , yeah, I was. So right there.

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And I am delighted, I am delighted today, uh, to be seated next to the mired archpriest Stephan Mahalek, Father Stephan, who joined me in 2021 for a webinar titled Does Anyone Know What Time

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It Is? We talked about liturgical time, and I'm so grateful that he is willing to be in conversation today and participate in this webinar, and I want to make sure you know a little bit about

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his background. So Stefan Mahali, Father Stefan, has been the rector. We are right now in San Anselmo, California, and he has been the rector here at Saint Nicholas Orthodox Church since 1995,

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and he was born in northwestern Pennsylvania, and I'm gonna go ahead and say this because especially for those of you that are that are musicians, um, you, you might be interested in these details.

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As a young boy, he served as an apprentice to Cantor Peter Kennis, who had learned Carpetho Russian plane chant at Saint Nicholas Monastery in Ukraine. Father Stefan, while attending Duquesne University in Pittsburgh, studied

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more music, chant, and choral music as sung at the the style as sung as the great Prachai of Lavra in Ukraine. Father Stefan was ordained a deacon in 1975. He served as the head deacon

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for the hierarch of the Orthodox Church in America. Uh, so sometimes around here in the neighborhood, people will walk by this church and they'll say, is that a Russian Orthodox church? And then we

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, we kind of go into the particulars and say , you know, so for me as a Presbyterian . It's not quite right to call it a denomination , but the OCA Orthodox Church in America is,

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it's different than the Russian Orthodox Church or or Russian Orthodox Church outside of Russia. We can get into that if you want, um, but As in this role as deacon, it meant that he was

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traveling both around this nation and internationally uh for liturgical services, United States, Canada, and many of those years meant that he was traveling and serving as the head deacon for Father Alexander Schmeman. So a

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lot of you on this call recognize that name and I want, I want you to know that connection . Uh, because that, that liturgical formation I think passes through and I see that alive here at

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Saint Nicholas in San Anselmo. In 1975, Father Stefan assumed position of choir director and lecturer in liturgics and Church Slavonic at Saint Tean's Theological Seminary. Some of us on on the call already had some connections

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around Saint Tekons, which is in northeastern Pennsylvania. Father Stean received his master's degree from Marywood College in Scranton, and in 1979 was ordained to the priesthood and assigned to Cumberland, Rhode Island. So he's

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done lots of work, uh, serving diocesan music committees as consultant for Department of liturgical Music and Translations of the Orthodox Church in America. He's nationally recognized as an expert in chant with a special specialization in

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Podobny. Did I get it? Pretty close. It's pretty say it. No, it's pretty close . OK, I've heard them say it a lot . Special melodies, special melodies, and also in

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Ruthenian Carpetho Russian plane chant, and he is singled out as a North American expert in liturgical bell ringing . So some of you know that's very important to me. Saint Nicholas Marin is how to find the

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live stream of the liturgical services here, so you can go to that website if you would um like to join by live stream. All right, so those are introductions. I want to do 2 sets

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of preliminary remarks, because I think I was just formed that way in seminary, you know, you can't get to the guts of a thing until you do a lot of preliminary comments. So I'm gonna

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do one set, we'll pray, and then I'll I'll make a few more remarks. So I, you know, signed, sealed, delivered baptism and deliverance from evil. Why is this happening right now

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, January of 2025? For me, it's because back in January of 2015, I was in a seminar at a liturgical guild gathering, and people were talking about the Flint, Michigan water crisis. And

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conversation around the table led uh some some folks, and these were persons in the reformed Protestant tradition. Some folks to say we need to create a litany of lament um or or some kind of some kind

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of liturgical prayer to stand against what's been happening in Flint, Michigan. And my automatic response was, and I said it out loud, was, well , we have the renunciations of evil at baptism,

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and and ought not we think about that as a framework and extrapolate from that, uh, to address events, situations, occurrences that we think could be labeled as evil. So there were deaths, children

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were had lead poisoning, uh, led to neurological disorders, um, there was talk of corporate greed , um, of the laziness of bureaucracy, you know, all sorts of things that we might say

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those descriptors. Especially the death by that, um , we could categorize as evil. So that was in my mind, in the Presbyterian Church, uh , a second thing that has happened is that we

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have established what we call Matthew 25 churches. So we, so we think about that division of the sheep and the goats, and when have we seen Christ. And when, when we do that in

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our denominational efforts, I'm Always interested in how we're already liturgically or sacramentally holding those meanings, both the ways that we are to take action, but the ways that we are founded, grounded in Christ's claim

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and call on us, and Christ's claim and call on the world. So Matthew 25 churches, that that was also in my mind as I was thinking about this. This past fall, a third example

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is that I was co-teaching a course with Doctor Cindy Rigby and a beloved professor I know, and the course was preaching and forgiveness. And this past fall , one of the documents that we asked our students

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to read and which which we read as well, was the anti-apartheid 1985 document um Kairos, authored in part by Bishop Desmond Tutu. One line in that document says the evil forces we speak of in baptism

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must be named. So right there in an anti-apartheid document, Bishop Desmond Tutu made sure to connect sacraments and their meanings to that atrocity, that evil going on. The evil we speak of in baptism must

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must be named. And then I turned to Doctor Rigby and I said, surely you've written something about this, and indeed she had. So she gave me access and we can, we can make sure

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that you have it. To her essay titled Evil and the Principalities included in the book, Life Amid the Principalities. So again, that's a resource that I will point you to, uh, Doctor Rigby

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as a reformed Protestant theologian in conversation uh with that topic. So I'm Cradle Presbyterian. I was mentored in my doctoral programs in liturgical work by an ELCA Lutheran Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, and by a

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Jesuit Roman Catholic, those two scholars. And my spouse, uh, partway into our marriage thus far converted to Eastern Orthodoxy, was chrismated here at Saint Nicholas. And so for decades in my work life

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, I mean, it's all woven together. I've always been asking what do other people do and why is that different than what I grew up with and are we missing something? or is there stuff just

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weird or, you know, all these sorts of things, right? I'm doing that. So what I was recounting for you about Flint, Michigan and Matthew 25 and the Kairos document, that's what led

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me to this point, and I, I kind of took a little bit of a turn and wanted to focus on the renunciation of evil at baptism. And I want to do that liturgically, which means

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I'm thinking about what the early church did, what the ancient church did in the 4th century when we had very robust pre-baptismal rites of exorcisms and renunciation of Satan. And I happen to know a priest in

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a tradition where they they still practice uh those exorcisms and those prayers, and I wanted to begin this conversation, this exploration about evil by by doing that liturgically, and so I invited Father Stefan to come

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here and and make a presentation and walk us through those rites. So that's my very first set of preliminary remarks, and now if you would lead us in prayer, please. We'll begin with the the

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traditional Eastern Orthodox prayer, which begins almost every divine service, and it's a prayer which is the invocation of the Holy Spirit. And and following the uh the maxim of blessed Augustine of Hippo, Quantabi orat

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, who sings praise twice, and we usually begin begin that at at a meeting or function by singing the prayer. Oh heavenly king, the comforter, the spirit of truth, who are everywhere present and

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fillest all things, treasury of blessings and giver of life, come and abide in us, cleanse us from every impurity and save our soul, so good one. Um, O Lord our God who honored

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us with your own image and taught your elect. That those who take heed to your teachings are astonished . You instructed Solomon and all them that have sought your wisdom. Now open. Our hearts and our

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minds, that we may receive the power of your law. Grant that our deliberations be in accordance with your holy word, to the glory of your holy name. And grant that in all our deliberations,

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we may discern your good and perfect will. Send your Holy Spirit to guide us. That we may worthily exercise the diverse ministries with which you have entrusted us, and deliver us from every snare of the

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enemy. Preserve us in faith, godliness, purity , grant that all our words may be free from every worldly deceit, that we might be worthy stewards of your eternal kingdom, for you are God,

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mighty in mercy, gracious in strength. And to you is through all glory, honor, and worship to the Father, to the Son, to the Holy Spirit. Now endeavor and unto ages and ages

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. Amen. All right, my 2nd set of preliminary remarks before I turn it over to Father Stefan . Our lifelong learning at Austin Seminary has been engaged in a series called Cultivating Ideas and both last academic

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year and earlier this fall, this academic year, both times, I, I titled my Making the most of the font, so it was a little bit tongue in cheek title, but I was,

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I was font focused, yeah. Uh, because , and again, I'm, I'm coming as out of my mainline Protestant formation and, and thinking about our, our place in culture right now and our

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how we are in church. And I think for many of us, many of our congregations, baptism is still a sidelined sacrament, and I can talk about that more, you know, in large part

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because if things are going well, it only happens once. Um, some of you have read Larry Stooky's book called Baptism, and at the beginning of that book he tells the story of a woman baptized

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5 times. You could kind of follow along all the, all the, anyway. Yeah. So , um, yeah, if, if it's going well, it's, it's once. However, it's

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a lifelong process also, and I think that's the part that somehow it, it's difficult to support. My systematic theology professor, when I was in seminary , uh, Professor David Willis talked about baptism as

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punctier plus growth. I love that word, punctier plus growth. Uh, he says the very nature of what is done has a forward dynamic to it . Uh, so, so I love that.

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So I think, first of all, let me say that as of this morning, there were 126 persons registered for this webinar, which is unexpected and somewhat stunning. Uh, so I'm, I'm making

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a guess that the word evil, uh, that we are trying to find a way to talk about it, especially those of us formed in traditions where we have some discomfort and we don't have a lot

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of normal language around that. Um, so, so there's that. I tend to default to, it's already there in our liturgical celebration, so let's go look at that. Um, so that's,

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that's part of why I'm providing today. Often, however, uh, especially, you know, I can trace this in my Presbyterian Church. The way that rights may have been done, uh, earlier

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in the history of the church is not how we do them now, and simply the way that rights perhaps held meaning when I was younger and and in in a congregation that was still burgeoning from the membership

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of the 1950s and all these people in the United States that joined churches, you know, that's shifted . So there are, there are many ways that our ritual actions and our language uh can become static

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or devolve, um, and sometimes we just, we don't use it as much. So there are lots of reasons why our small phrase in our Presbyterian book of worship, it it doesn't carry a lot

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because it happens at this one time. And maybe we don't talk about it that much anymore. So , so I want to mention that and towards the end when I talk about just some suggestions or ideas

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of what we might do about retrieval of language, I'll focus on that. I will say one thing from Father Alexander Schmeman from his book of Water and the Spirit. He says, oh good, show

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and tell. All right. uh, Father, Father Alexander says. You know, and he's writing for an Orthodox audience. He says baptism is absent , it's absent in our churches liturgically, it's absent

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in our piety, and it's absent in our worldview . And I wonder about that again speaking for my formation, evil um seems to be absent liturgically in our language, um, in my personal prayers,

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uh, in the prayers of my congregation on a Sunday morning. And maybe even in my worldview, except that I think many of us are getting to a point where we realize it's in the world,

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and we're and I think many of you are on this call because we're trying to figure out how to name that and and speak of it um on a Sunday morning. Finally, the last, the last

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big thing that that I will say is that I applied for a grant and I received a grant from the Calvin Institute for Christian Worship, which will allow me this Lent and Holy Week to embed here as

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a participant observer again at Saint Nicholas. Uh, for those of you on this call that have read Aidan Kavanaugh's on liturgical Theology, this this congregation and their liturgical celebration. Um, I, I,

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I, I see the fullness and the robustness of liturgical celebration here. So that means many things. One small thing it means is that for me who's interested in this material, I, I always want

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to be thinking about experiencing and writing about it. So what I'm doing in this webinar, I'm going to take 7 weeks to do here in this congregation . My point in saying this is, I don't

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know why all of you signed up for this, but if you wanna let me know through an email or or writing in the chat, um, what about this webinar is enticing you to be here.

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That will help me with my grant work. I'm going to be uh interviewing people here, asking them about how they live on, live out their baptismal vows of renouncing sin and Satan, you know,

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so I'm gonna be doing that here, but I'm , I'm trying to translate this into the Protestant realm because I think we need some recovery. So I mentioned that. So now I can say that I

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will, you know, God willing, be here on great and holy Friday, which is when Father Stefan will lead uh those who are about to be newly illumined through the exorcisms and through the renunciation of

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Satan, and I would love for you now to talk about that and maybe set up the cateuminate first . Yeah, let's see where we are. We're at. You know what, I'm gonna give you

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a cliffhanger. We're gonna come, we're gonna take a 5 minute break because we're out here in the morning hours, so we need a 5 minute break . I'm gonna give you a cliffhanger, 5 minute

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break and then we come back. He's gonna speak about about those prayers. So let's time it and let's all mute and put off our video and come back. Um, so that means it'll be 11

00:22:21.050 - 00:22:34.410

here, 12, 1. It'll be 1, well, if you're central time, 1. See you in 5. That's wonderful. All right. OK, uh, we, we are returned and

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I am, would you please talk about the cat acuinate? And these prayers. First of all, I'd like to thank you for the opportunity to participate in this because um I have to say, Right

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now, 10% of our parish membership are adult catacombs . Mhm. And that's become quite a phenomenon within the Orthodox Church in America right now. There is an exponential growth of Adults In most parishes, young

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people, people in their mid to late 20s, early 30s, who um are not uh it's not just a conversion to a denomination, but, but are seeking baptism to become Christians, and um there's

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been a huge influx. In many of our parishes , we're not one of those with exponential. Uh , if I told you the numbers, I, I know some of our parishes in our diocese,

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I would say we're 25% or more of the membership are adult catechumans preparing for baptism, for imminent baptism right now as we speak, uh, and which is an amazing phenomenon which causes, uh, Also

00:24:00.270 - 00:24:15.130

in the pastoral ministry to take a real close look at First of all, is the book that Jen was talking about water and the Spirit when Father Schmeman wrote this book, what and what year was it

00:24:15.130 - 00:24:41.340

first published? It's been the 19 early 1980s. 74 in 1974, his introduction is that Infant baptism has become the absolute norm in our church, and I can say this. Infant baptism. is not

00:24:41.340 - 00:24:53.780

the norm. Now, adult baptism is the norm . I baptized many, many, many, many more adults in my ministry than I have, than I have children. And so, it's been very

00:24:53.780 - 00:25:08.840

important for me to take a close look at what's happening. And if baptism, when infant baptism was the norm, um, It tended to be kind of be a private family, intimate affair, and

00:25:08.840 - 00:25:23.150

now, um. Our normal time at Saint Nicholas for baptisms is uh at at the vigil, the vigil service for a great and holy Pasco, and as it was done in, in the early church

00:25:23.560 - 00:25:41.920

and uh That's always a really exciting time for us liturgically, and the pre-baptismal. Pretty baptismal rites, uh, begin with the catech in it. So , The the way that works here in our parish

00:25:41.920 - 00:25:57.730

is a person expresses an interest. And uh they're kind of given an unofficial status as an inquirer. Some of our neighboring parishes that that that status has become kind of almost formalized with inquirers, classes and

00:25:57.730 - 00:26:14.050

things like that. But then the official step is taken when someone decides to be a catechumin. Uh , a catechumin, of course we, we're familiar with the word catechesis, which means those learning.

00:26:14.530 - 00:26:26.810

In this case, learning the faith, but um if we take a look at the word etymologically, we see that it has to do with sound. It's about hearing, of course, recalling the words

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that Jesus uses repeatedly. He who has ears to hear. Mhm. Mhm. Let her hear. And uh so there's a real connection between that and the actual hearing. In fact, in our prayer

00:26:42.320 - 00:26:57.670

for the catechums, uh we we pray for those hearing the faith. Back to the whoops, yeah . Thank you. And um It uses the word . In a verb in the litany for them,

00:26:57.770 - 00:27:11.410

um. Maybe they hear the word of truth, but it's that same word, catechesis. So a person becomes a catechumen and there's a particular prayer, it's a very ancient prayer, um, and it

00:27:11.410 - 00:27:37.760

begins with Their own personal demonstration of willingness. And then, uh, a breathing like so. Assigning like so. And the imposition laying on of hands . And that begins this official process, which is

00:27:37.760 - 00:27:52.030

in the early church took 1 to 3 years. Uh I would say that um in the Orthodox Church in America, the average cateche in it is at least 1 full year, a full year, and

00:27:52.030 - 00:28:07.450

that that full year means um Attending classes, either a Bible study, being present regularly for the, the, the community's worship, a participation in the full year of of of the liturgical cycle of the

00:28:07.450 - 00:28:27.000

church, and, and as well as on some levels, um, functioning in a service position within the community. Um. That process gets very formalized at the beginning of Lent, of the year before

00:28:27.000 - 00:28:45.490

uh immediately preceding the baptism, and then it becomes intensified at a final enrollment. Uh, the 25th . Day back from holy Pasca, what we call mid Lent. Lent is a little longer than the

00:28:45.490 - 00:28:59.940

Byzantine tradition because Holy Week is not part of Lent itself. In the, in the Byzantine right, Holy Week, uh, um. Lent, excuse me, begins or ends on the Saturday before Palm

00:28:59.940 - 00:29:15.500

Sunday. So, uh, this final period, the, the, the um catechumen is given this status of the photo is many, those preparing for holy illumination, and then special liturgical prayers are read

00:29:15.500 - 00:29:30.140

for them at the divine services and so on during those final days of preparation. And Now that I've been meeting with catechhumans, I've uh taken a second look. There's a wonderful book called From Darkness to

00:29:30.140 - 00:29:44.380

Light, which is a Western source by Anne Field titled How One Became a Christian in the Early Church . And I like it gives some insight into what that preparation looked like then and now, and how

00:29:44.380 - 00:29:57.980

that corresponds to what we're doing right here right now . And it remarkably, and I'm sure that's why Jen has Yours truly with her. Uh, what we do right now in this land without any additions

00:29:57.980 - 00:30:15.140

or subtractions, is gonna match pretty much what was done in the church of the even the first quarter of the first millennium. Pretty much the same. Uh, for me and and I'm in. Chan's

00:30:15.140 - 00:30:30.610

a liturgical scholar, I'm an A liturgical student and an amateur liturgist, but one of my, one of my favorite uh maxims which Father Alexander Schmeman would often say, um, Of prosper of Aquitaine,

00:30:32.200 - 00:30:45.070

Lexandi lex credendi, how we worship, how we pray reflects what and influences what we believe. But another maxim here, I think it's very important for me, and I think it's something I'd like to

00:30:45.070 - 00:31:04.300

focus on what we're talking about today or why I I'm here, uh, is a maxim by Saint Vincent of La, and that is his canon which says, The criteria of authenticity are those things held

00:31:06.040 - 00:31:32.000

. Everywhere Always By all In his words called ubikwe called center. Quo of omnibus. Those are hard criteria to meet as you all of your scholars. Everywhere Always by all. But here I'm going to

00:31:32.000 - 00:31:48.160

probably have to limit that to the first millennium in the period of the undivided church, east and west . And of course, an essential part of the catecuinate and that preparation. Or the prayers of exorcism

00:31:49.510 - 00:32:06.930

. And I here I have to confess. Sometimes it's a difficult thing. I'm, I'm reading these prayers which come to us again from from the first quarter of the first millennium, and The reactions I

00:32:06.930 - 00:32:29.230

get from often family and friends. And begin the because in the Byzantine right, we're actually addressing. The devil personified. And It's not been uncommon to see. Smirks, laughter. Rolling of eyes.

00:32:29.980 - 00:32:43.900

And even so much that uh that uh I'm very glad now that most adult baptisms happen on great and holy Friday, uh, which means that the the the people in attendance are those who are regular participants

00:32:44.070 - 00:32:54.720

in the worship of the church, where there there's a totally different understanding of that, but it infant baptisms, when, when, uh, uh, you know, there are all kinds. Would you

00:32:54.720 - 00:33:06.320

describe people of family, friends, neighbors, and so on. Uh, and I think that's one of the reasons I'm here listening to what what Jen's going to have to say about that now is to

00:33:06.320 - 00:33:19.400

how to communicate. What is it that we're doing and why, um, why that way, uh . Well, to start with, uh, I usually try to begin my day on the Byzantine right

00:33:19.480 - 00:33:37.350

, there's a yearly daily lectionary of scripture, uh , a New Testament lectionary of. Either Pauline letters or or the general epistles and reading from the four Gospels. Today's lectionary comes from uh the 21st chapter

00:33:37.350 - 00:33:53.250

of Luke, and in the third verse we read on this very day coincidentally. And then Satan entered into Judas called. This area. And I thought , oh, OK. So it's not a notion

00:33:53.250 - 00:34:06.750

that we can easily get out of and um and how much of that is metaphor, how much is that? It's just, you know, personification, um. How are we to handle it? How

00:34:06.750 - 00:34:24.460

are we to deal with it? Um. In the early church, the exorcisms were distributed throughout that latter period of catechumin. And I know, you know, I'm A typical boomer. My biggest exposure

00:34:24.460 - 00:34:39.580

to demonology was when I was in seminary, was not in the theology class, but when the film The Exorcist came out. Visions of head spinning around and and puking pea soup, and all of that

00:34:39.580 - 00:34:50.780

kind of thing, which I think it affected a lot of Americans, uh, during that period indelibly . I, I don't speak for all of you . How many of you have seen that, that

00:34:50.780 - 00:35:07.330

film? Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. Had an effect that doesn't of some kind. And uh You know, to try to untangle all of that , uh, uh, cause that's what, that's

00:35:07.330 - 00:35:23.140

what the culture had. And I have to say in my nearly 50 years of ministry. Only once . Was I asked to perform a rite of exorcism , other than the usual prayers before baptism. That

00:35:23.140 - 00:35:43.460

was in Rhode Island, that was decades and decades , and that was at the insistence. Of the local Episcopalian priest. Over Over his parishioners. It's the only time in my life that I had that

00:35:43.460 - 00:36:00.440

particular experience. But so what happens with us now on Great and Holy Friday, the, the candidates having gone through at least this year's preparation, um . Stand before the congregation. And we read 4

00:36:00.440 - 00:36:15.010

final pairs of exorcism. I don't know if we went into detail or what or what what happens. I can share a little bit what they are like . The Lord puts you under ban, oh devil

00:36:15.380 - 00:36:29.340

. He who came into the world and made his abode among us, that he might overthrow your tyranny and deliver us. And remember, this is great and holy Friday right now. So, we say

00:36:29.340 - 00:36:44.700

heal upon the tree of the cross. Triumphed over the adverse powers when the sun was darkened, the earthquake and the graves were open, the bodies of the saints arose, who also by death annihilated death

00:36:45.230 - 00:36:58.190

. And let's notice this is in the past tense , and overthrew him who exercised the dominion of death , that is you of the devil. I charge you by God, who revealed the tree of life

00:36:58.440 - 00:37:13.490

, who arrayed and ranks the cherubim and the flaming sword, which turns always to God it be under ban. So you can see the connection between the Paschal ministry and the the fact that already, uh

00:37:13.500 - 00:37:30.200

, the victory has been won, uh. And then The second pair I charge you, most crafty , impure, vile, loathsome, and alien spirit by the might of Jesus Christ, who has all

00:37:30.200 - 00:37:44.230

power both in heaven and earth, who said to the deaf and dumb demon, come out, and no wise enter a second time. And this is speaking to the devil. Acknowledge the vainness of your

00:37:44.230 - 00:38:00.690

might, which has not power even over swine. Call to mind now him who at your request commanded you, the sister of the devil, to enter into the herd of swine. Finally, excuse me

00:38:00.720 - 00:38:16.250

, the penultimate prayer, Lord of Sabaov, God of Israel, who heals every malady and every infirmity . Look upon your servant, prove her, root out of her every operation of the devil. That

00:38:16.260 - 00:38:29.420

having obtained mercy from you, she may be made worthy to partake of your heavenly mysteries. But notice that in the in the in the eastern tradition, uh, the word sacrament uh is is absent,

00:38:29.460 - 00:38:43.580

but rather the Greek word mysterion or mystery, uh , so we would, we would say not the sacrament of baptism, but the mystery of baptism and so forth from. And then finally the fourth pair

00:38:43.620 - 00:38:58.060

, which is, I, I would say, by most standards you uh you would experience the exorcism proper, um. The celiban breathes over the person and says, expel from her every evil and unclean

00:38:58.060 - 00:39:13.220

spirit which hides and makes its layer in her heart , and that's done 3 times. And then it lists that, the spirit of deceit. Spirit of evil. The spirit of idolatry. And recall the

00:39:13.220 - 00:39:24.100

words of uh the the uh general epistle of John . Little children flee from idolatry. So this is a very comprehensive word when we think, don't don't think of like, you know, worshiping little statues

00:39:24.100 - 00:39:40.310

or something, but, uh, flee idolatry. The spirit of every covetousness, the spirit of falsehood , which operates to the prompting of the devil, as we've heard in the gospel today. And make

00:39:40.310 - 00:39:55.960

him a reason endowed sheep in the holy flock of your Christ, an honorable member of your church, a consecrated vessel, a child of the light, and heir of your kingdom. And then that's immediately

00:39:55.960 - 00:40:12.910

followed by the renunciation. There's a physicality there. Uh, at that point, uh, the candidates turn and face the west. Uh, worship in the eastern tradition, generally when it's in church is

00:40:15.020 - 00:40:28.980

Add Oriental facing the east, and we're all facing the same direction, by the way. I don't have my back to my congregation. We're all praying together and facing the same way, uh uh that

00:40:28.980 - 00:40:42.030

was is an important concept, um. The renunciation is to the opposite direction, and simply do you renounce Satan, all his works, all his angels , all his service, and all his pride.

00:40:42.430 - 00:40:54.660

And that's done 3 times, and then it's done 3 times in the past tense, have you renounced , and and then a warfare is initiated, the candidate, and this was done in the west also

00:40:54.660 - 00:41:10.580

in the first millennium, breathe and spit upon him , and there's a physicality uh to to actually a gesture of rejection. And then uh the candidates turned to the east. Add orientum to the sort the

00:41:10.590 - 00:41:30.060

the direction of the symbolically the source of light, and do you align yourself with Christ. And 3 times again, they answered that. And then In the past tense, 3 times again, have you

00:41:30.060 - 00:41:51.190

aligned yourself with Christ, and then uh the recitation of the Nicene Creed. And finally, the final prayer on Holy Friday, which uh is completed at the paschal vigil with the actual blessing of baptismal water

00:41:51.880 - 00:42:07.560

, triple immersion, and what's really important, following that, the anointing with holy chrism, and then the mystery of Pentecost, with the giving of the Holy Spirit, and then a solemn procession from the

00:42:07.560 - 00:42:23.000

Baptistry, which is usually outdoors, um, a solemn procession during the paschal vigil. Into the church itself into the temple where uh they participate in the Eucharist, which seals that. So there there are

00:42:23.000 - 00:42:42.040

33 mysteries of initiation, uh, triple immersion in water, which is that the image of death, really under the water and and and resurrection. And then the mystery of Pentecost and the giving of the

00:42:42.040 - 00:42:53.440

Spirit, and then the food of immortality and the nourishment of that, as Jesus, when he healed when raised the girl from the dead, first command was, give her something to eat, and we're

00:42:53.440 - 00:43:07.040

given to eat, of course, of, of the Eucharist. And, and that kind of anything else you want me to highlight describes those mysteries of initiation. That's done today. That's done, it's

00:43:07.040 - 00:43:24.360

done today. Um, So, thank you. And how can you, I have, I have a couple guesses. How How are the catechhumans, the adult catechhumans, how are they prepared? To

00:43:24.360 - 00:43:40.550

hear these prayers. Well, our congregations are small enough where I do meet one on one with people , and also recognizing the, the uniqueness of every person's formation. Uh, that's an important question because

00:43:40.550 - 00:43:52.070

as I said in the beginning, most of, most of these folks now, they're not joining a denomination. Uh, they're becoming Christians, and so the, number one, there's a communal aspect to

00:43:52.070 - 00:44:06.480

it, but also, uh, there's an emphasis that This is a new lifestyle, a new lifestyle . And um, but everyone has as all of us, we have our our own path, our

00:44:06.480 - 00:44:17.630

own journey, our own formation, and again, our parish is is small enough that it that it does afford me an opportunity to to meet one on one, as well as with them as a group

00:44:19.320 - 00:44:30.380

. Do you review the prayers, the actual prayers , ahead of time or no? Yes, yeah . Yeah. Yeah, um, 11, so one question I had for Father to find when we

00:44:30.380 - 00:44:45.420

were preparing this, and I think it's important uh for those of us. Um, That are that are in traditions where we can write our own liturgies . Um, it is to know it would not

00:44:45.420 - 00:44:55.560

work for us just to say, hey. In the Presbyterian book, I've got one little phrase, do you renounce evil? Um, hey, I wanna expand it and use all these prayers, you

00:44:55.560 - 00:45:05.960

know, we know, we know that would um cause some issues that wouldn't, that wouldn't work. Um, so there are lots of things to say about that, but one thing I asked Father Stefan

00:45:06.480 - 00:45:21.350

is for examples of other places throughout the year in the life of prayer, whether it's personal prayer or liturgical services, where, where and how does evil get. Talked about, um, so you had

00:45:21.350 - 00:45:31.350

a couple examples of that because it's not only at baptism, that's my point, right? Uh, there are other times in other ways in other prayers , and that's, that's important for us to keep

00:45:31.350 - 00:45:43.150

in mind, um, but, but you had , you had uh like a. How much time do we have? You go, just go. I'm I I I'm laughing about that because it would

00:45:43.150 - 00:45:57.260

be impossible to recount. Yeah, all the references to that in the daily, um, in the daily. Communal prayer of the church, for example , at Vesper at Vespers alone, uh, at

00:45:57.260 - 00:46:07.450

Vespers every day, uh, there are several references of what you're talking about. In other words, I, I think then what you're trying to say is the language of the. This is not an

00:46:07.450 - 00:46:23.490

unfamiliar language to to people who participate regularly in worship or in the prayers of the church. For example , at every Vespers, uh, before the dismissal prayer of inclination, the Lord our God who bowed

00:46:23.490 - 00:46:37.330

down the heavens and came down for the salvation of the human race, look upon your servants, upon your inheritance, uh, and, and, and it says, I'm not gonna quote the whole prayer

00:46:37.750 - 00:46:52.210

. Deliver us from every adverse work of the devil , uh, from vain thoughts, and from evil memories, uh, and that's, that's something that all my people, they probably, uh, would

00:46:52.220 - 00:47:05.770

, would know that prayer by heart, uh. And the other vespers that they sell about I'll just give you an example. Grant us that this present evening, the coming night, may be peaceful.

00:47:06.000 - 00:47:22.050

Clothe us with weapons of light, and deliver us from every nighttime fear and every deed that walks in darkness. Give us sleep, which you will bestowed upon us for our rest and our weakness, of

00:47:22.050 - 00:47:36.880

sleep free from every fantasy of the devil. And that, as I've looked through there, there are 8 of these evening pairs, actually 9 of them . And 4 out of the 9 make a refuge

00:47:37.220 - 00:47:50.720

, a reference, I would say to the personification of evil, yeah, yeah, evil, uh . There's just countless, countless references, and, and last but not least, the, the,

00:47:50.730 - 00:48:08.460

the final evening prayer before sleep, uh, there's a blessing of one's bed and um. It's uh a prayer trusting again in Jesus's final triumph over evil upon the cross, and how and the accessibility of

00:48:08.460 - 00:48:23.380

that triumph which is given to us in faith, and um where where a person marks the bed with the sign of the cross, and uh it's recounting that indeed the powers of evil were annihilated. But

00:48:23.380 - 00:48:44.620

what's the word that who who used the word surrender not. About that Schmahman? Who, who's on um what? Jesus upon the cross. Defeated the devil. But, but Satan has not yet surrendered

00:48:45.230 - 00:48:58.910

. We're trying to, we were talking about, for example, a good example of the American Civil War, uh, what happened at Appomattox. Lee surrenders, excuse me, he surrendered, um,

00:48:59.190 - 00:49:15.320

or the victory was gained at Appomattox, but I think you can say within our American system. It doesn't mean that the losing side at that moment surrendered , and that kind of reflects the complexity of the

00:49:15.380 - 00:49:30.510

theft. Yep, yep. Yeah, so, um, So I, so I'm, I'm listening to Father Stefan and I have glanced at time. I want to say that I have lots of notes

00:49:30.510 - 00:49:38.800

and if I run out of time, I'm going to prepare a short video and ask that we get that sent to all of you, uh, to make sure that you've got the the rest of my

00:49:38.800 - 00:49:50.470

comments, so I promise you that cause it's right here in front of me. Um, I want to, uh, I'll just make a couple of , of comments. Um, I, you know

00:49:50.590 - 00:50:00.670

, my, my colleague Doctor Dave Jensen is here . Um, I can't quite flip through all the screen easily. I know that my colleague Doctor Cindy Rigby was going to join. This is to say

00:50:00.670 - 00:50:14.460

that there are some theologians on this call, and Father Stefan and I, uh, we, we know that we can't do that work, uh, because there are different. Theological understandings of evil in

00:50:14.460 - 00:50:24.420

the in the west, uh, that came through us to to came through the Roman Catholic Church to Protestants, mostly out of Augustine, and the east does not parse it in the same way, you

00:50:24.420 - 00:50:37.700

know, so Augustine will talk about evil as an absence. And uh right here in again in this of water and the spirit, this beautiful work by by Alexander Schmeman, he says clearly it's not an

00:50:37.700 - 00:50:51.060

absence, it's a presence, um. Doctor Rigby in her short article says that kind of the, the two main sticking points, uh, at least that she's articulating as a reform theologian, and,

00:50:51.110 - 00:50:59.440

and of course I don't, I haven't seen what Doctor Jensen has written on this topic, but I'll , I'll quote, uh, quote Cindy. She says the two sticking points for us are, uh

00:50:59.450 - 00:51:12.570

, we, we really hold back from talking about evil because we never want to suggest that evil can undermine the sovereignty of God, right? So. So even though there's, there's all this battle imagery

00:51:12.660 - 00:51:24.930

, it's not a battle of equals. Um, and it's actually interesting because Cindy in that essay ends with still the image of the battle that we are fighting against evil, even though we know that evil

00:51:24.930 - 00:51:37.230

has been defeated. Um, so, so we have a sticking point around sovereignty of God and the way that we conceive. Um, Father Stefan's first question to me was, do you personify evil?

00:51:37.260 - 00:51:46.950

And I'm like, well, not really. We , I, I mean, in my, in my Presbyterian formation we shy away from saying Satan or the devil or the tempter or the adversary. Um

00:51:46.960 - 00:51:55.990

, adversary or temper a little bit easier, right , cause, cause it's not Satan or the devil . Um, so, so maybe that relates to , but it could I say a word about again

00:51:58.850 - 00:52:14.340

, Father Alexander, I had the privilege of knowing him well, and he was a total skeptic, what you call it the hm about. Folks who emphasize what you even call the supernatural, the what

00:52:14.340 - 00:52:25.480

the woo woo, I don't know, yeah, and you know who can help me with a word about. And I knew him and I know, uh, no one. At seminary at that time

00:52:25.480 - 00:52:39.830

had a more allergic reaction to that stuff. In fact, he always, you know, his, his mantra was Christianity is the end of religion. No more religion. It's over. Um, uh

00:52:39.840 - 00:52:54.990

, because religion's all about that stuff, incantations and formulas and what you expect. Shain, the higher power becomes your errand boy, cosmic Aaron boy, and so on and so forth. Schmeman's last words

00:52:54.990 - 00:53:12.910

before he died in December of 1983 to the theological students of Saint Vladimir's was. And this is literalism . Don't underestimate the influence of the devil. Uh , which was kind of shocking that him at that

00:53:13.080 - 00:53:23.160

, that stage. Yeah, yeah. OK, yeah, so we, so we share that, you know, like, I mean, even, even in your Twitter, you know, so we

00:53:23.270 - 00:53:32.990

, yeah, anyway, I'm just trying to articulate , uh, Doctor Rigby talks about in relation to sovereignty of God, but I, I think there's so many dynamics and part of it is just like

00:53:32.990 - 00:53:45.740

movies like The Exorcist, right, the things that have culturally gotten into us. The other, the other, um. The other point that Dr. Rigby makes is that we also don't want to simply

00:53:45.740 - 00:53:57.060

say, oh, the devil made me do it , right? We don't want to set aside our human agency and so, um, so, so sometimes we shy away from language about the devil,

00:53:57.180 - 00:54:09.480

Satan, evil, the adversary. Uh, because it, we've seen it become an excuse, or we've experienced it being used as an excuse for heinous , uh, torturous, um, actions. So

00:54:09.480 - 00:54:21.120

I, so I think that's helpful to say. Um, I, I feel like in a little , a little bit of time here, um, I wanna, I'm gonna pick up a bit more

00:54:21.120 - 00:54:37.910

on what Father Stefan said, but, but shift us toward. What I'm thinking about as as a Protestant in in relation to liturgical work and and naming evil. So, So first of all, it's

00:54:37.920 - 00:54:52.350

, it's, um, you know, we've not set out a definition for you. uh, we talked about that and again Schmeman in his work says um it it like a a a a marker of

00:54:52.350 - 00:55:07.030

evil at work is is confusion and irrationality and, and, um, and, and. It it it, I think at that point you talked about how, how to know with the noose and not

00:55:07.030 - 00:55:21.380

with um, can you speak to that briefly? I don't know. Yeah, within eastern Christianity, there there's a real distinction between the concept of faculty of mind or what you say the head, or

00:55:21.390 - 00:55:34.440

or whatever it is and and that of the noose , which is the eye, eye of the heart , and that they have very, very different functions and We can only know God through the news.

00:55:35.040 - 00:55:53.560

The mind is God's gift to give us primarily as a survival, uh, survival skills. And uh Especially the mind asks only one question, uh, as a teacher of mine would say, what about

00:55:53.560 - 00:56:05.560

me? No matter what it is, just think about it. That's the question the mind always asks . Doesn't doesn't matter what it is, but it's the news, that's the eye of the heart,

00:56:05.800 - 00:56:20.520

um, and it's Not that these things are irrational . I would say what would you, how would you define them, uh. But that's the faculty in which we can know God. Mhm. Mhm

00:56:21.700 - 00:56:39.600

. The eye of the soul, but the eye of the heart, the heart, yeah. Yeah , so, um, The word no addict? No, right, right. Yeah, so these

00:56:39.640 - 00:56:54.660

, these words for evil, you know, the deceiver, uh, the disruptor, the, um , Anyway, uh, some, some of those descriptors are divider, um. So I, I

00:56:54.660 - 00:57:07.940

think a big thing for forest, I'm I'm kind of jumping tracks, but in my mind it's related . Um, I wonder if many of us are thinking, gee, in the prayers of the people

00:57:07.940 - 00:57:22.860

on a Sunday morning, should I start naming this war or that genocide or this leader as evil, like should we make that big of a move, um, when I'm when I'm praying in this in

00:57:22.860 - 00:57:36.490

this tradition. Uh, the, the, the litanies, the prayers use the large categories. That's what I, that's what I'd say, um. And at the same, so a couple things I

00:57:36.490 - 00:57:51.970

wanna say. And at the same time I can depend when I'm at Saint Nicholas or Saint Elias back in Austin, that there will be a prayer for the government and leaders. There there are standard intercessory

00:57:51.970 - 00:58:07.660

prayers. Um, And and that's folded in. Um, I will say that as somebody in the Presbyterian tradition, you know, so I can write prayers that I'm interested in the fourth prayer of exorcism

00:58:07.660 - 00:58:22.980

that Father Stefan shared when it talked about, I , I can't remember what the verb was, but remove or ban the spirit of deceit, of idolatry , of covetousness, of falsehood. So I'm,

00:58:22.110 - 00:58:36.230

so I'm thinking for myself that I need to go back to the seven deadly sins, and I think I see them in the Orthodox Church listed as 8 , but although they're not called sins. The thing

00:58:36.230 - 00:58:51.300

is if you look at Those items or labels, and you do the work of what's underneath that. It seems to me that the what's underneath that is where the devil is at work. So for instance

00:58:51.340 - 00:59:02.780

, to talk about sloth, it's, it's this propensity to laziness, right? You know, and how, you know, uh, if, if , if you talk about avarice. Um, how

00:59:02.780 - 00:59:15.370

is the devil at work in a person who is has such propulsion to continue to get, get more , get more, get more, you know, those are the things that I think we could start

00:59:15.370 - 00:59:31.040

naming more often. I want to remind us that the Lord's prayer, the Greek literally says deliver us from the evil one. I find myself playing around with maybe that becomes an intercessory bid for us,

00:59:31.290 - 00:59:45.040

um, because we can do that in our free church tradition. Deliver us from the evil one, the spirit of, and then we do the work and start naming what we see as these um adverse

00:59:45.040 - 00:00:00.000

powers and principalities, these spirits that are at work , that we know are absolutely linked in twined and tangling in what we see in genocide and war and and corporate greed and Uh, lies and etc.

00:00:00.000 - 00:00:00.000

etc. In the name of religion, and in the name of religion, yeah, yeah. Anyway , those are, those are a couple examples and I will do some recording for you and and set

00:00:00.000 - 00:00:00.000

those up a little better, but that's one example . Part of this is um. When I'm when I'm praying with the orthodox, I also, I also understand, uh, that you don't get into

00:00:00.000 - 00:00:00.000

specifics, you don't name. Unless it's prayers for the sick or the dying or the dead, but you're in in world events and and everything, it's . Well, 10 basil and it just, it's

00:00:00.000 - 00:00:00.000

Yeah. But you're not naming names. No, right, you're not, you're not saying you're so they are prayers for the captives, but but we're not naming who right now is holding people captive,

00:00:00.000 - 00:00:00.000

right? Well, I know for for obvious reasons , my my colleague Father Kiri is said we we for Explain why, why would we And we do single out right now Ukraine and the Middle East situations

00:00:00.000 - 00:00:00.000

. And um one of my colleagues, he was very specific about that, and immediately like, An Eritrean woman in his parish came up to him, the end of the service and she says, my

00:00:00.000 - 00:00:00.000

village was just wiped out last week completely. Everyone slaughtered, not a mention of it in the media , not a mention of it in, in other words. The danger is if you don't mention everyone

00:00:00.000 - 00:00:00.000

. Someone's going to feel, feel what, uh , neglected. Yeah. So that's the danger of that. So think so again back to back to sitting here with Father Stefan and and doing this,

00:00:00.000 - 00:00:00.000

you know, very, uh, you know, we don't have much time here, but this this small bit of work that is comparative work, um , what, what I, what I want to

00:00:00.000 - 00:00:00.000

highlight is That the catechumen at work is is long term, so uh so there's time for teaching and for talking about prayers ahead of time before experiencing them . Um, I've already highlighted that. The prayers

00:00:00.000 - 00:00:00.000

of exorcism and renunciation of Satan. Those threads get repeated in the personal prayer rule and in other liturgical cycles throughout the year and absolutely in songs that are sung, and absolutely on certain big feast days.

00:00:00.000 - 00:00:00.000

So for instance, we just had the great blessing of the water, and there's lots of language in there. Um, so again, it's, it's not that thinking about the renunciations of evil in relation

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to baptism are the only time. That that interaction with evil is happening. It's happening in the life of prayer, um, and it's certainly happening in teaching and preaching as well. So I think that

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is uh important for for us to pick up on that. But the other piece that I want to say is um 11 thing that I think about a lot in our Protestant uh contexts is uh and and

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it depends it depends on our congregation and and what tradition we're in. But for many reasons, some of us have become what I would call our worship is more episodic, where we focused on a certain

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theme for the day. It may or may not relate to the church's year and where we are, you know, with Christmas or or uh Lord's baptism or something, but we're but we're going after a

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theme or a topic, and we're not always connecting that theme and topic to the larger. The larger proclamation of God's salvation and and the dying and rising of Christ, um, and, and our who

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who we are and whose we are um in God uh with the gift of the Holy Spirit. And if we're not. Telling the big story, it's hard to come in and just start talking about sin

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and evil. We, we, we've got, we, so, so part of it because I was hearing, uh, from some folks that were encouraging others to join this webinar, and that's part

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of why I hope you email me or put things in the chat, uh, because I I want to know what's happening pastorally and in it where you are in your ministries. What are the questions around

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this? Um, but I, but I feel like we can't count on people knowing the whole story anymore, and we can't just come in and start talking about sin and it, it won't have a

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context, right? Um, and so, you know, I'm, I'm gonna say we have to start, we have to, you know, start with what's the good news. So at the end

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of that prayer. That was at the 4th 1 that there was this beautiful list. Where's the 4th prayer that you said? Oh yeah, so and make him her a reason and doubt sheep in the

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holy flock, honorable member, consecrated vessel, child of light, heir of thy kingdom. Um, there you, you, you all know I love Gail Ramshaw's work, um, and, and,

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and the images from scripture and what it's a, it's a joy and a privilege to be able to proclaim that good news. And if we're not getting around to saying that, then then it's hard to

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come in and And, and talk about, yeah , talk about evil and sin. So, so a lot of my liturgical suggestions are also us stepping back and looking at what type of language, like

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literally, are our hymns and songs addressed to God or are we just talking to ourselves about ourselves? Cause that happens. Are the prayers, the litany , um, the unison prayers, the prayers that

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we're designing, you know, again, uh, the free, you know, my, my tradition , we can fall into just like Here we are , and it's a beautiful day and God made this

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day, but the way we talk about God is very distant. So it's just like we've gathered to look at our belly buttons and talk about ourselves. So, um, you know, so there's some

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diagnostic work we can kind of look at and see , you know, what's the language that we're using and are we proclaiming the big story and helping helping people understand their stories within this larger story? So

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, um, we've, we're kind of coming up on the last 15 minutes, and I do wanna have have Sean help us, uh, sort through some of the comments and questions in the chat.

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I, I want to tell you that I, I'm not the only person that's interested in this topic and, and working on it. I know that Melinda Cuvic is on this call and she's the editor

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in chief for the journal Liturgy. And uh golly G, uh somehow I got tapped to be a guest editor for an upcoming issue that will be published a year from now, and in that upcoming issue

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there will be an essay by um an Orthodox deacon , Nicholas Denisenko. He's he's doing the same work . And uh he he is in the Orthodox Church in America, so he's very focused on these same

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rights and prayers. He's very interested in how we are talking about evil when um we have so many people in our congregations who know have experienced trauma, so we're talking about that a lot. Uh,

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he even goes so far as to call the church a traumatized people. You'll have to read his essay to to see why he's talking about that. So there, there's there's some wonderful work being done by

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by other scholars, uh, trying, trying to , you know, he's trying to revive and um how we're thinking and talking about evil, so. All right, that that was a little messy there

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at the end, but I'm trying to get some things out and Sean, do you want to come on and and help us hear anything that's in the chat that we should Absolutely. Thank you both for

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an amazing presentation, greatly appreciated, uh, as always, learn every time I listen to you, uh, Doctor Lord, and so grateful for you as well to, uh, Father Stefan. I

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almost called you Bishop. That's my nickname for everybody that I, uh, look up to. That's a different denomination. So, uh, we've got a couple of questions here in the chat. Let

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me locate a couple of them. So let's see , um. I think one in particular was around these questions of what and or who is the source of evil. Carlos was asking that one if you

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can comment on that. No. That's, yeah , thank, thank you. Thank you for that . I know, I know I know we want that. It's hard, it's hard for us to

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conceive of talking about something when we don't have a , a pin down definition or things. So that's where I'm gonna send you to my, my colleagues that are in the theology department and, and,

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um. And, and hear what, hear what they have to say, um. Except, except to say, you know, that list of that list of uh. Well I was thinking about adjectives

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. Actually, let me, let me read you . I have a little excerpt again from Nick Denysenko . This is something he published last October in a different journal called Worship, and this, this actually

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might help us. He says, uh, Christians recite the Lord's prayer together um on their own, in every place, at every time, and they finish with a simple yet profound a petition deliver us

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from the evil one. He says the church does not merely have a vivid imagination. She is conscious of the active presence of evil spirits who are jealous of God and the covenant of love with God's chosen

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people. Um, I've, I've been rereading a book by David Fagerberg. I know some of you on this call have read this book consecrating the world to God on mundane liturgical theology, and David Fagerberg

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Faerberg, uh, you know, lingers a little bit about Lucifer's. Fall, uh, and the way that Fagerberg talks about it, he just uses the language of Lucifer broke ranks, um, stepped

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out of the hierarchy, stepped out of the flow that is from the Creator to the creation and the love and glorifying of the creation back to the Creator . Um, so again there, you know,

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the, the, the folks that I read and the Bible scholars and theologians, that's part of, um, a, a certain type of mystery that we can't say. It's certainly not created by God

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, absolutely not, um, but that's about, that's about what we can say. It's a wonderful framework, Doctor Laura. Yeah, that question of the source of evil and how it comes into the

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world is one that Christians and people of faith have been asking for millennia, and we will continue to ask until we see the Father face to face, the Lord face to face. Uh, another question

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that's emerged too is why triple immersion? Marchable immersion You, um, I. You know, having grown up in that tradition, never, but I did notice, by the way, and, and

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this the western western recreation of that from darkness to light, it is also triple immersion. Trinitarian, uh. The image of Jonah 3 days uh in the belly of the whale is an image of Jesus

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, um. What 3 day resurrection, 3 days in the tomb. Since it's an image, it's , it's a very vivid image of death and, and that's important that to see baptism. Uh,

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I think in the West, if I could say that there was a more emphasis on Augustine's notion of baptism as cleansing, which is certainly an aspect. The East has always maintained a very vivid notion that

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primarily the cleansing is a byproduct of baptism. It's a corollary of that. But the primary one is death and resurrection. But, but, but. Christ's death and resurrection. And so that I think

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what why the triple immersion. Mhm. That's wonderful . Thank you, absolutely excellent. Uh, we've got another one here from uh Joel. Joel said he was, he said, I was in a

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discussion with another Lutheran friend about the run nunciations before baptism. He didn't feel that they were necessary since baptism is what does the work of saving. How do you respond to something like that? I'll say

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it again. Uh, Joe said he was in a discussion with another Lutheran friend about the renunciations before baptism. Uh, that friend did not feel that they were necessary, the renunciations since baptism. Is

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what does the work of saving? How do you respond to something like that? What does Southern Baptists say that. Thanks, Joel, um, that's right. Sorry, you just got Sean going there

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, um. Oh gosh. Uh, as I was listening to that question, I could hear my , my seminary professor, uh, saying kind of some remark like. Oh, you know, it's

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just enough to say to my spouse, I love you. I don't need to give them a kiss . Um, I, I, I mean we , we, we, we're humans, and I

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think God is accommodating to us by, by all of our senses and, and. Yeah, sometimes an action is enough, but isn't it better to have an action plus, um, and I mean

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to to what I was what I was saying before , I, you know, we need, we need to have it reiterated also, yeah, so , so the language, uh, the language that's

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used, that's its own symbolic function because that language gets reiterated in liturgical services and personal prayers. Um , so. Isn't the primary thing we're talking about initiation. Like that has to be. Yeah,

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what are you thinking? It's initiation. It's not um what what what what uh. It's, it's not an isolated over and done moment. It's, yeah, so back to what I was saying,

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it's not, it's not an isolated, now things are good. It's, it's, it's, it's the Christians' initiation right. Stan Hall always used to say that. Now we're on the path, um

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, you know, Schmeman right here says exorcisms are the beginning of the fight to go back to the battle imagery. Um, because it's, it's a renunciation of, of the, of the way all

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things have gone awry, teach us who the winner is. In the flood. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely excellent, wonderful. Thank you. We've got another one here. Uh, Melinda's asked a great

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question. Uh, she says, how does or does orthodox prayer turn the darkness from being only negative , the abode of evil, but also the converse , the place of growth, seeds and soil,

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pregnancy, the void over which the wind of God swept in creation, etc. Uh, again, how does orthodox prayer turn the darkness that we noticed , those negative connotations of darkness being associated with evil

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and injustice. Uh, how does orthodox prayer or does it turn the darkness into, uh, the converse, a place where growth is possible, seeds and soil, uh, pregnancy and darkness that's in

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the womb, the void over which, uh, the wind of God swept in Genesis chapter one. She concludes by saying she's thinking about the racial issue of dark versus light. How do we reframe the

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power of darkness, uh, and recognizing that there are positive attributes that are part of that as well too? How does orthodox prayer contribute to that? That's I'm in the process of preparing this Sunday's homily

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, and it's the Sunday after after epiphany, and uh it's Matthew and the people who sat in darkness have seen a great light and those. Those who what? Yeah. And the shadows of death upon

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them, the light has has shined. The first image that comes to mind with that, I think to answer the question even about racism, um, light. Uh, the light. At the beginning

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of Genesis, obviously, Has no resemblance to the physical light of the sun and moon. Even in that narrative, they're not created until the 4th day . So it's not. That at all. I

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think we need to just banish any kind of image of that. It's talking about something far, far bigger. Does that make? Mhm, mhm. OK. I, I'd have to think more about

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that question, um. Yeah, yeah. I'm , I'm, I'm going to icons, but um , cause everything's happening all the time. Thank you , Melinda, but That's a great question. Father

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Stan, let me tap into my Baptist for a moment. He went to Genesis and was talking about the light in creation. I was like, yes , sir, I was trying to be good.

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Uh, let's do one more question from our, our colleague at Austin Seminary from Rick Carlson, and then uh I'll give the concluding moments to our wonderful presenters if you want to give some final thoughts to

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our audiences we draw this time to a close. Uh, Rick, who's a good friend of ours and co-worker at Austin Seminary, he says, my friends who do not believe in God usually do because

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of the presence of evil in the world. How do we answer the question that if, as Bart stated, evil is the absence of God, how is that an omnipresent God is absent from evil?

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Thank you, Rick. Um, yeah, that's good, that's good. Well, um, How is an omnipresent God absent. Evil Um, I We, we've just come through, we've just come

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through the, the feast of the nativity of the incarnation. I mean, God, God took on flesh and pitched tent and united heaven and earth, um, and, and, and with, with

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the blessing of the waters at Theophany we we know again that all all creation was made to glorify God . Um, it's, it's, I don't know , it's hard to conceive of, um. That

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that's that's so present in our in our worship, uh, in that in our life that it Um , Or Psalm 138, where God is omnipresent. Even darkness is not darkness to God. Whatever other

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images about. I mean, I think darkness means it's not about a color or anything. It's about not being able to see, period. Yeah. I submit incognizant. Yeah, yeah. It's it's

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a, it's a metaphor for what you say which , which means God there's no place where God is not where God is not, and some 13 I think beautifully uh illustrates that. Yeah, yeah,

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so you have, you have liturgist stumbling around a theology question, yeah. That's what, that's what I would say to that, so. Um, anyway, OK. Well, thank you, thank

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you, but I, I can't wait to look at, look at all the, the notes and the chat and, and thank you for patience because this really was, was the exploratory beginning. Again

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, I'm going to enter into uh some grant work , so I, I really would like to receive your questions and thoughts, um. I, I again, I think I'm, I'm making the,

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the plea, um, sensing that a lot of you are on here because you're trying to find some way to, to talk about evil in worshiping traditions where, where we don't that much. So I

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invite you to start with baptism, um, to , to do some teaching. I mean, this is perfect for Lent, cause Lent is our. Annual return to God. It's, we're all the

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prodigal again, coming unto ourselves and, and saying , let me, let me about face and return . It's not just the time for it is the time for those preparing for baptism, but for those

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of us already baptized and, and people that are seekers, um, that they know that they don't have taproots tapping into anything that's life-giving. Um, so, so. Yeah, OK, I lost

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my train of thought, but, um, but you know that, that, um, this is a perfect time to to look at, look at baptism, that book from from darkness to light is

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very helpful. Uh, I'll put some other resources in when I send some follow up materials, and we both very much like Henry Nan, you know , as far as Protestants trying to wrap their minds

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around this, he's a, he's really accessible and his work does this, you know, if you're interested in creating prayers. And litanies that that that are pleading that we, um, are delivered from

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the spirits of the spirits of the spirits of. That's another good resource to look to. So I'm , uh, gratified, enthused for everyone's presence and participation. Um, I will, I will continue

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to try to live up to the interest and, and give you some follow-up material. And um and so grateful for lifelong learning for all of the support that you've given for this webinar. Again, 126

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of you signing up, so I wanna stay in conversation. Thank you, thank you, Father Stefan . Can I share with the which we pray daily during this octave, which I think some today you

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have appeared to the world, oh Lord. And the light of your countenance has been marked on us . Knowing you, we sing at your praises. You have come and revealed yourself the unaro. Oh

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. Right. Oh man. Thank you, everyone