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10:00 So we're going to go ahead and get started. So good to see you all. This room is full of people that I know and recognize and and people that I'm just meeting.

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And this is just a really great opportunity. And for those of you that are joining us online, welcome. I hope you also have a blessed experience today getting to know the other folks that are in your breakout rooms.

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We have such a treat awaiting you all today. I'm Carolyn Hillsall. I teach preaching here at Boston Seminary. I'm also project director of the Faithful Preaching Project,

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and this is our second of eight preaching workshops that we'll be offering over the course of our Lily Grant funded five years of doing this Faithful Preaching project. Today we have the great gift of getting to hear from the Reverend Doctor Lisa

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Cressman, who for 30 years served as an Episcopal priest, a spiritual director, and somewhere along the line, around 2014, she woke up in the middle of the night with a vision of back story preaching. What if we helped preachers not just in the short term but in the long term to

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help them see preaching as a spiritual practice? They work on through the back story preaching process, craft and spirituality. So the process, what is it like to work on a sermon overtime?

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How do you do this as a spiritual practice? The craft of preaching really improving your your preaching and the spirituality of this. How does this connect with your own faith and your own growth as a preacher and as

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a Christian, as a believer? So today we're going to get to to benefit from her excellent leadership. She won't be standing up here, but I'm short, so I thought I would stand up here to do this brief introduction for those of you

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that are here in the room. Bathrooms are down this hall and to the left. We have water and coffee and, and tea in the back and some little muffins if you need some, some some nutriment nourishment.

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And then we'll have lunch around 12:00 in on Zoom. We'll be breaking during that hour, so make sure you join us back between 1:00 and 2:00 for the final session. So without further ado, please join me in welcoming Lisa Cressman.

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Lisa, thank you all. It is a real delight to be here. Thank you, Doctor Helsel for the invitation. Also a big shout out to Kelly to Clean, who has done a fantastic job behind the

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scenes coordinating all of this and putting us all together. So Kelly, thank you and welcome to those of you who are on Zoom. I'm also really glad to have you.

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In fact, I am far more accustomed to working in Zoom land than I am in person. So this is this is really fun for me because I hardly ever get to be with actual human beings.

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So I can hold your hand. So this is I, I am, I am loving this. So thank you. So we're going to start off with making sure that you can use the QR codes today.

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So you're going to use your phone and how do you feel today? Yeah, come on up. So have your phone ready to use the QR code, which I'm going to pull up next. All right, so point your phone and those of you on

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Zoom, I understand can do the same thing. So how are you feeling today? How? What is your internal weather?

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Stormy, overcast, partly cloudy, clear and sunny. How are you feeling? What are you bringing into the room? Partly cloudy, clear and sunny.

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I'm a feeling so so today it's all right. Energy can be low. So pretty probably kind of an average feeling day ordinary. All right, let's we're going to move on to the next

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one. And so this one, most preachers have a sermon that they're essentially preaching all the time. We have sort of 1 sermon that is floating through everything we preach and say.

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And so I'm wondering, what is your one word sermon? So it might be compassion or justice or love or So what is your one word sermon? We'll create a word cloud as we go. See, this is so cool because you can even see

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up there at the time. You can see how many people are typing at the time. This is so cool. Are you able to see the screen?

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OK. Yeah. OK. I don't want to block it.

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Beloved. Mercy, vulnerability, hope, faith. Mine would be compassion, inclusion, justice, unity, peace, acceptance, vulnerability.

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That might be the first time I've seen that one as a one word sermon. But All in all, that is that's a pretty nice list, don't you think? Let that go.

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Some people are typing, so keep that going for a second. Interdependence. Oh, I love these. These are so good.

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Well, if this is the good news, oh, delight, good. If this is the good news that's going out into the world, this is feeling like, yeah, the world's got a chance. You know, this is pretty good.

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It does it. Yes, Sir. Yes, it does. Yes, it does.

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All right, So as we get started also I want to talk about how we are going to work together today and have some sort of ground rules for intentions and you have this in your packets as well. So we're on about page 4 or so.

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So as we get started, this is what I'm suggesting is page, I don't know, I don't have the page numbers in front of me. What is that page?

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Oh, I wonder if that got maybe. Yeah. Oh, it's OK. It's not there.

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That's OK. It's all right. So here's what I am suggesting for the day is that that we're trying to encourage respect and full participation.

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So bringing our whole self to each moment, meaning being fully present, being here, trying not to let the things of the day, letting this interrupt you, letting giving yourself the gift of being just right here and not, not multitasking, which is what we do most of the time.

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So a gift of you don't have to multitask today. Extending generous assumptions. We're all doing the best we can with the tools that we've got. We're doing our best.

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So we give people the benefit of the doubt. Listening spaciously, meaning listen broadly. There is most of what somebody is saying. We don't know their whole story.

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There is 99. 9% of their story that we are not hearing. So listen. Listen spaciously and graciously to what people are offering. Only respond and answer to what you wish.

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Of course, hold your own boundaries, what is comfortable for you. You are not required to disclose anything that you don't want to. Take what you need and leave the rest. Some of the things that you're here today I hope will be helpful.

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Some of it probably won't be. So take what you can use and don't worry about the other stuff. Please silence your phones and reserve your phones for questions so you're not on your phone while we are talking.

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For those of you who are online, I recommend turning off your notifications, closing your tabs again, giving yourself the gift of just being only right here. And I'm going to do my best to start and end on time.

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So my next question for you is of those, would you add any intentions beyond what I suggested? What would you add so you can, if there's something that is missing, please use the QR code and add it so we have sort of a group understanding for

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today. Reconnect to your calling, listening to God, Have fun, trust the process. Amen to that.

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We talk about that a lot in back story preaching. Be still and know Nice. Growth. Be aware that the Holy Spirit will lead you.

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Grow in courage. Unfurl into fullness beautiful intimacy with God. Validate each other's experience. Connect with other pastors.

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I'm hearing you and a man's voice occasionally. So maybe those who are managing Zoom, there might be somebody's mic accidentally on. It's not here in this room.

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How much of my own story to share and when is the right time to share it? Yes, we're going to be having small group conversations and whole group conversations as the day goes along. The open to all opportunities, Be still and hear God's words for the

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weak. Follow the golden rule, always a good one. Offer grace. We enter and leave as full human beings.

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Have you ever heard that the the the made-up word flossom. That one is both flawed and awesome concurrently. I think that's a good one. Flossom.

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We're all flossom. All right, this looks pretty good. So we OK on how we are going to be with each other through the day. Does this all look OK?

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Lovely. OK, now one more thing about introductions is that I would like for you to introduce yourselves to each other. So for the next 5 minutes I'm going to have you turn to your table groups and I

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would like you and in zoom in your small groups that you will be with for the day. So offer your name, where you preach, and in one sentence something you really like about where you serve. So your name where you preach and something you like about where you serve.

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So for example, I'm Lisa Cressman. I serve at Back Story Preaching, and something I really like about what where I serve is that I get to work with preachers of all denominations all around the world.

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It's very cool. All right, so your turn. I'm going to give you 5 minutes and introduce yourselves and then we'll come back to the main room.

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All right. So hopefully you've gotten to know your table Group A little bit and those of you in Zoom, you've connected with your small groups there.

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So we'll have a number of times today that you'll get a chance to talk through some of the questions for the day. So the title of the entire workshop is preaching is your life. Your life is preaching.

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Preaching is your life. Your life is preaching. Now, I realize that most of us in this room and those on Zoom have accepted a specific call to be preachers in a more

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formal sense, where we are offering sermons behind a pulpit or in other contexts. But long before we accepted that call, we were already preaching because our preaching began with our baptisms.

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Preaching began when we when with our baptisms, because once we became a follower of Christ, we said we agreed or were confirmed later to This is the way I will live my life. This is who I am.

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So it's not simply a title that gets stamped on top of us. Baptism is something that changed our very DNA. It changed our origin story. And it is not just what I do, it is who I am.

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So the way we live our lives, the way we comport ourselves, the way we speak, the decisions we make are always in some way reflective of who we are as baptized children of God. Now, a way to think about this is in the

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parenting world. One thing that I heard which was very helpful to me is that parents are always teaching their children something. The only question is what are they teaching?

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Because, you know, kids are sponges. They they are, they're, they're like those I saw for the first time today, though, a self driving car. Those things are wild.

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But the things on the top and on the, you know, so that's kind of like what kids are. They've always got the, the radar going on the top. They've got it on all corners of their bodies.

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They're constantly noticing, absorbing, becoming. They are becoming the environment in which they are apart because that's what parents and other adults, but mostly parents are teaching them. Parents are always teaching their kids something.

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The only question is, what are they teaching? So in the way they talk to each other, the the parents and the other caregiving adults, the decisions they are making, the jobs they have and how much time they spend at them, what they eat together or not,

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what they watch together or not, everything is teaching kids something. In that way. We are preaching with our whole lives. We are always preaching.

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The only question is what are we preaching with the way that we live our lives? We are constantly showing. We are constantly showing people what we believe and the congruence,

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the degree of congruence in which our beliefs about God is coming through and being emitted through our beings, our choices, our decisions, the way we speak, how we talk to telemarketers, the way we behave on very crowded Austin roads.

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All right, Yep. Yeah, that's a time to pray. Time to exactly time to pray so today what we are going to be focusing on is getting in touch with one way to access what is it that we are preaching what are

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we preaching and so that's where the preacher's back story Lectio Divina on Scripture and life is the way that we are going to get at this so. When we read a text to prepare for a sermon or regardless of your your ministry position in church, whether this is Christian Ed or you're

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aloof leader, whatever The thing is when we read the text to learn about God, we are always always concurrently learning about ourselves. Every text is like a workshop test, because when so I am old enough that when

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I was in seminary, what I was taught about preaching was that the preacher needed to get out of the way of the text so that the text could be its own sort of pure thing by itself. I think that's, I think that's really bad theology

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because it's just impossible because the only way scripture can come, can come into the world is through human beings. This is it. This is the, this is the only thing available for the

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text to move through and out into the world. And it is impossible. It is impossible for any of us to read the text without reading it through the lens of who we are and our experiences.

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All of that is shaping. How we see a text and the way we interpret it. So who we are, all of that, that background, our educations, our family of origins, our ancestries, the way that we were trained,

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all of the things that constitutes our back story. And like the back story of a character in a movie, for example, that back story is driving everything. That character does everything.

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But in the movie, it's rare that we discover the back story. That's partly why many of us love prequel movies, because that's when we get the back story. Love those.

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How did they get to be the way they are? That's their back story. But in general, in most movies, unless it is a specific part of the plot line, we don't know backstories.

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We infer on the basis of what we see on the screen, right? OK, so our backstories are coming with us into the pulpit and they are influencing every single sermon we preach and everything we offer about our lives that reflects our belief about God.

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When we are aware of our backstories, for example, we might have an anecdotal illustration from our lives that we get to put into a sermon. Yippie, Skippy.

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That's really, that's really simple and easy, but there are massive parts of our backstories that we're not aware of that we have blind spots to because it's the ocean we swim in. We don't recognize, we don't recognize that part of our back

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story, and therefore we're not recognizing the way it's influencing how we see the text. So when we can get in touch and articulate our backstories, bring them out into life, show them to ourselves,

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then we get to ask, OK, this is my back story and how I have understood the text, or pardon me, how I have understood my life. This is my experience. But is it congruent with the way I understand the gospel?

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Am I living, do I believe such a way that it is congruent with the gospel? When those two things are in conflict with each other, then we've got a lot of questions.

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How do we preach with integrity and authenticity when our back story is in conflict with the gospel as it is, not as we wish it were, not as we wish it were, but as it is as it is actually presented. So today, that's what we are going to be focusing

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on. We're going to apply. Excuse me, Lectio Divina a portion of it to reading a text and then we're going to be examining our backstories or one one way to look at

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our backstories. So this is how we're going to do it for the day. So the goals and schedule for the day are that we are going to get intentional. We're going to be aware of the the influence of our back story so that we

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can be intentional about offering our whole selves to God and ask to have God heal what needs to be healed. So until 11 O 5, we're going to pray Lectio on a text and gain new insights about God so that we can be transformed to become the good

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news we preach. In Part 2, we're going to oops, we're going to talk about the teacher will be able to identify aspects of their back story that influence the interpretation of the text.

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And then in Part 3, we're going to put it all together. And so now that you've got the text and your back story a little bit more out in front of you, what do you do with it? OK, And then in between, there in between here is when we will

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have lunch for 45 minutes. OK, all right, so let's dive in. So Part 1 talking about the text. So Lectio Divino at back story preaching, this was a big part of the the way that I

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implemented the vision that the Holy Spirit landed in my lap about wedding spirituality with preaching. And it is the application of Lectio Divino. If you are not familiar with Lectio, I am not going to talk about all four

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aspects, all four stages of Lectio today. There are many, many resources available for you to access. I give just a super brief definition for you in your packets.

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Today we are focusing on just Lectio. So a given is that there is more to this story to be applying to your sermon prep. If this ends up interesting you, then I have I back story preaching. We've got lots of resources to help you dive deeper into this process.

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But today we are only talking about Lectio. And Lectio means to read. And there's a particular way that we are going to be reading the text. So we are reading it slowly, carefully, and naively,

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as if we've never seen it before, bringing to it a beginner's mind. So when we're reading Lectio, we're trying to read it literally. What does it actually say? Not what I remember it says.

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Not what I've heard other people talk about. Not what I've preached on it before. Not what I believe about it. What does it actually say?

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What's the black and white on the page? Now, for those of you who get nervous like I would about literalism in when we are reading in ALectio style at this stage, we're really just seeing.

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We're reading it naively like we've never seen it. We are not trying to make meaning yet. Later in stages of Lectio Divina Meditacio, the next study stage, that's when we start to make meaning of.

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But one of the odd things about preaching is when we we choose, we figure out or we are assigned our our sermon text, nearly always our first question is not what does the text say? It's what am I going to say?

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Right? We start with anxiety because there's something on the line and we've got a deadline and we don't want to say something stupid or foolish or God forbid, we have nothing to say.

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By the time it's time to get up there, it's like, Oh my gosh, OK, so that is not helpful. That coming to the text with anxiety to try to get yourself out of a jam because this is about our egos.

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What does it say about me? This is not helpful to anybody. So this is actually the hardest part for preachers is to slow down enough that we are not thinking about what am I going to say?

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We are focusing focused on what is God saying. OK, so that is what we are going to be doing in Lectio today. So in the next pages of your packet, you've got, we have a,

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a section of John that we are going to come to. But first, you have lots and lots and lots of pages in your packet. What that we are not going to get to all of those pages today.

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My goal is for you to learn a process that you will be able to apply to the rest of those pages that you've got in the packet. We're using just one example of all the things you've got in the packet and the process is Lectio on the text, Lectio on your back story.

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And then what do I do with it? OK, so stage 1 is Lectio on the text. That's what we're doing right now. So when we do Lectio on the text, we're going to be using this that you

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have in your packets. We're going to be using this God diagram. So there are three translations of the text. We're going to be reading all three versions,

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and each time we're going to use one of these prompts. The first time through, you're going to be paying attention to what is God doing or any member of the Trinity. In this case, it's talking about Jesus.

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So what is Jesus doing? What are the actions? Or in this case also, you can broaden it a little bit. What is Jesus telling other people to do?

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What is Jesus directing people to do? So we're really paying attention to the verbs. What is, what is the plot? What is happening 1-2 and three, what is happening, the actions,

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What is God, God, Jesus, Holy Spirit doing? The second time we read, it's going to be what is God's affect? What is, what do you infer that God is feeling? What are God's emotions?

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What is happening behind the scenes that might have been driving the actions? Because our emotions are what drive our behaviors. So what is God's affect? What are the feelings and the emotions that we infer from the text?

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And then finally, what does God hope for? What is Jesus? What does Jesus want? What are the motives that are leading Jesus to drive this action?

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What is what is God hoping for for all of us? What is the outcome? There's always a reason that this stuff is in the text. There's always a reason Jesus is saying what Jesus is saying because Jesus wants

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something. What does Jesus want? And in this case, what does Jesus want for us? OK, so those are the three prompts.

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So I'm we're going to read the text the three times I'm going to ask for the prompt and on your worksheets or there are also a couple of pages of of paces blank pages for notes at the very end of your packets. You can use those as well.

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Jot down notes as we go. And then we're going to so we're going to go through each all three, and then you're going to turn to your table groups and share what you wish. OK, so I'm going to read the first time and

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then I am going to ask for volunteers to read the other two. So be prepared that I will be asking for volunteers. OK, I'm going to read the NRSVUE on the left as I read it this first time through.

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Pay attention what is Jesus doing? And jot down notes as you go. John 15 One through 8. I am the true vine, and my father is the vine grower.

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He removes every branch in me that bears no fruit. Every branch that bears fruit he prunes to make it bear more fruit. You have already been cleansed by the word that I have spoken to you. Abide in Me as I abide in you.

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Just as the branch cannot bear fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, You are the branches. Those who abide in me and I in them bear much fruit,

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because apart from Me you can do nothing. Whoever does not abide in Me is thrown away like a branch and Withers. Such branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. If you abide in Me and My words abide in you, ask for whatever you wish,

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and it will be done for you. My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit and become My disciples. Take a minute to and jot down what is God doing.

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Take a few notes for yourself. What is God doing? Take one more minute. What is God doing?

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All right, finish up your word or sentence you've got going and then we're going to come back and read a second time. Will somebody be willing to read please the NIV in the middle there are microphone a few microphones at tables and I will will need to use a microphone

00:35:26.080 - 00:35:39.560

anytime somebody's speaking to the whole room. Great, thank you. So this time, as the NIV is being read, pay attention to what is God Jesus feeling?

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What are the emotions? What is his affect? I am the true vine and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit,

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while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Remain in me as I also remain in you.

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No branch can bear fruit by itself, it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. I am the vine, You are the branches. If you remain in me and I and you, you will bear much fruit.

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Apart from Me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in Me. You are like a branch that is thrown away and Withers. Such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

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If you remain in Me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. This is to my Father's glory that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

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Thank you. What is Jesus's affect? Take a few minutes to jot some words down. Take one more minute on this one.

00:39:18.360 - 00:39:44.970

Somebody be finish your sentence or your thought before you forget it and we'll read the third time. OK, so this time read the message and let me say a word about why I use the message version.

00:39:44.970 - 00:40:04.150

I use it all the time. And that is because the message version works. Eugene Peterson It works sometimes and it doesn't at others. But the reason I like it is because it makes you think, why do I,

00:40:04.150 - 00:40:15.400

why do I respond to this text the way I do, either favourably or not? So it makes us question what is my theology? What do I believe? Because I'm reacting to it.

00:40:15.400 - 00:40:28.200

There's a reason. So that's why I love using the message. Plus sometimes the the the language is just really beautifully written out, but it's because we react to it that I love to use it.

00:40:28.520 - 00:40:41.080

So as it's being read this time, pay attention to what does God hope for? What does God want? What are the dreams? What is God hope for?

00:40:41.080 - 00:40:56.040

OK, go ahead. I'm the real vine and my father is the farmer. He cuts off every branch of me that doesn't bear grapes and every branch that is grape bearing.

00:40:56.360 - 00:41:16.300

He prunes back so it will bear even more. You are already pruned by the message I have spoken. Live in me, make your home in me, just as I do in you. In the same way that a branch can't bear grapes by itself,

00:41:16.300 - 00:41:35.080

but only by being joined to the vine, you can't bear fruit unless you were joined with me. I am the vine, you are the branches. When you're joined with me and I with you, the relation intimate and organic,

00:41:35.080 - 00:41:49.040

the harvest is sure to be abundant. Separated. You can't produce a thing. Anyone who separates from me is Deadwood gathered up and thrown on the bonfire.

00:41:51.200 - 00:42:01.400

So what is Jesus's affect? And I don't mean just specifically in the message version. The story as a whole, you taking into account all three versions.

00:42:02.880 - 00:42:10.520

No, it's one through 8. It's oh, so thank you. So sorry. I was looking at the end of that paragraph and thought we're done.

00:42:10.680 - 00:42:24.240

Thank you. Please keep going. But if you make yourselves at home with me and my words are at home in you, you can be sure that whatever you ask will be listened to and acted upon.

00:42:24.720 - 00:42:36.160

This is how my Father shows who he is when you produce grapes, when you mature as my disciples. Thank you. Thank you.

00:42:36.160 - 00:43:56.290

All right, What does Jesus hope for? Like hoping for the entire Scripture to be read, you know? So, all right, what does Jesus hope for? It will take just another minute on this and then we're going to turn to small

00:43:56.290 - 00:44:37.960

groups. OK, I'm going to ask you to turn to your tables and then zoom in your small groups and share what you're comfortable sharing from each circle of the diagram.

00:44:38.000 - 00:44:46.560

You don't have to cover all three. Which whichever 1 you found most compelling? What insights for you arose? What surprised you?

00:44:47.240 - 00:45:00.240

What challenged you? What is making you curious? What do you have questions about? So insights, surprises, challenges, curiosities.

00:45:00.560 - 00:45:26.560

And we will go until for 5 minutes. So 10, So 56 past the hour, 56 past. For those on Zoom who are having to manage exact moments, 56 past the hour. So here in the main group, I'm going to invite you to share aloud as

00:45:26.560 - 00:45:43.080

you feel comfortable Zoom participants you can offer into the main chat. But I'd love to hear from you what you're comfortable sharing from the circles in the diagram. Either what you wrote if you didn't have a chance to share it,

00:45:43.080 - 00:45:54.640

what your table was talking about, or small groups on Zoom. So what did you hear? What insights came to you? What have you not noticed before?

00:45:55.720 - 00:46:05.160

What surprised you? In other words, what you've read this text 100,000 times. What have you never seen before? What have you never considered before?

00:46:06.240 - 00:46:13.040

What surprised, challenged, or made you curious? And I will of course be asking. We need to pass the mics. We've got 3 available.

00:46:13.920 - 00:46:24.240

And so we'll just, we have to share. I think I've heard that's a good thing. So we'll need to share the mic. So please offer.

00:46:27.960 - 00:46:36.040

I'll jump in. All right. One of the things that I saw and brought up is that I, I always saw this text as about the Kingdom of God.

00:46:36.040 - 00:46:45.320

But I realized in this reading, perhaps for the first time, how much it's personal and it's about our relationship. Oh, how personal it is. Yeah.

00:46:45.520 - 00:46:55.560

About our relationship with God. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, thank.

00:46:56.040 - 00:47:09.200

Did you hear the comment? Oh, so, oh, sorry, yes. So as you're comfortable sharing from the diagram, what insights arose? What surprise challenged or made you curious?

00:47:09.560 - 00:47:17.600

So what have you never noticed before? What have you never considered before? What came up? It's OK to say what sort of feelings might have come up in you?

00:47:17.600 - 00:47:38.340

We're going to get more into that in the next part. So what, what did you notice? What did you see? One of the things that I noticed was the the fact that that my relationship was

00:47:38.340 - 00:47:45.600

God brings him honor. Oh, your relationship with God brings God honor. Yeah, goes over to God.

00:47:45.800 - 00:48:13.970

Uh huh, correct. We were struck by the conditional love like HE brought out that it does seem conditioned on your behaviors and your choices. And so that's some of us also got saw God as a tender person,

00:48:13.970 - 00:48:28.160

the person who tends us in the garden. So it's it's interesting juxtaposition of those both in the same text. So I think that's what we were circling around a little bit. I wonder if it might have been intentional that I chose this text.

00:48:28.640 - 00:48:47.820

I wonder we were chewing a little bit on this middle circle. What is God's affect? At least I brought up the question. Or the idea that I'm not used to thinking about God's feelings when I execute a

00:48:47.820 - 00:49:00.480

text. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Feelings, Dr. Behaviors, emotions, drive choices, yes.

00:49:00.480 - 00:49:14.800

So when we are exegeting a text, we are also exegeting God. What is God's back story? How did God get to this, this moment, this decision? What was driving God to get here?

00:49:14.800 - 00:49:29.240

Of course, most of the time, or maybe all the time, we don't know. We will never know for sure, but that's part of the fun of being a preacher is that we get to infer. We we make really sound, educated guesses.

00:49:29.320 - 00:49:41.120

It's not just coming from from anywhere. This is where doing exegesis and being responsible about a text is super important. But once we've done that work, we get to imagine.

00:49:41.720 - 00:49:54.000

We get to use our sacred imaginations. Huh. I wonder what might God has been feeling? What came right before this moment for Jesus that this is what of?

00:49:54.080 - 00:50:08.160

Of the billion things that Jesus might have chosen to say, this is the one. In the limited time Jesus had with these people, this is the thing that was the most important thing for him to say. Why?

00:50:09.080 - 00:50:18.640

Why this thing, this moment? What drove it? What was behind it? Well, it's it's chapter 15.

00:50:18.640 - 00:50:46.310

So this is the last discourse that Jesus has with his disciples. And I were, I thought I heard a sense of not fear, but concern that there would be people who would not hear his message and who would then turn away and lose, maybe through their own choice,

00:50:46.310 - 00:51:00.680

lose the opportunity to know the joy of abiding in God. So can I infer also from what you're saying, Urgency. I'm sorry. Urgency is that would be a way to talk, say what you're saying.

00:51:00.800 - 00:51:20.540

Yeah. Jen, which is, do you distinguish between God and Jesus Christ in your work? Oh, you mean for these questions, depending on where you are in the Bible

00:51:20.540 - 00:51:30.000

or. Yeah, it's it's sort of they're always all there, but I tend to go with who is the dominant character?

00:51:30.160 - 00:51:47.690

Which one is showing up in this moment? Yeah, but you could, you could go to all three. I wanted to submit when when I looked at the the message translation, ultimately what, what I kind of blame is the fact is the

00:51:47.690 - 00:52:06.050

fact that God not only wants us to just be bearers of fruit, but he wants us to be bearers of great and grand fruit in that he wants us to have abundance in that if we're connected to him and have a relationship with him. And ultimately it goes from not just a relationship,

00:52:06.050 - 00:52:19.230

but an intimate relationship. And as a result of all of that, it's kind of like the psalmist when he talks about the overflow. And I always use the illustration of when our grandparents used to drink coffee pre

00:52:19.230 - 00:52:31.680

pre Starbucks, they used to, you know, get the tea kettle and then prepared and then they had the China. Sometimes it was good, sometimes it was beat up, but nevertheless they didn't drink it out of a Styrofoam cup.

00:52:32.080 - 00:52:45.320

And so once you pour the coffee into the cup, before you pour it into the cup, you put the cup on the saucer so that when you poured the coffee, in case there was overflow, in case you didn't want your hand to be burnt, you'd keep it on the salsa.

00:52:45.600 - 00:52:56.040

And additionally, when you had the overflow, if you really seen all day coffee drinkers, they even go so far as to take the overflow was at the excess. And they say, well, bottoms up.

00:52:57.160 - 00:53:06.360

And so, but, but I, I, I point out the fact that in life, the Lord blesses us with abundance so that we might bless others. Wonderful. It's great.

00:53:06.360 - 00:53:19.120

Thank you, thank you. Can you repeat that phrase that you said about the difference between emotions and feelings? You said emotions drive something and emotions drive behavior.

00:53:19.880 - 00:53:34.960

Yep, emotions drive choices. Yep, emotions drive choices. All right, we are about at break time, so during the break we're going to take about 10 minutes so we can stretch, get coffee, get what you need.

00:53:35.360 - 00:53:51.480

Slurp from saucers as they are available. Use the QR code and type something. You type out the question at the bottom of that page. In the text, I see that God fill in the blank and it

00:53:51.480 - 00:54:02.320

is intentionally vague. It is. What do you see about God? How would you summarize from this story I see that God what?

00:54:02.800 - 00:54:37.400

And we will return for the next part at, at, at, at, at, at quarter after, at quarter, after the hour, we will return. We are moving on to page 12 in your packets. We're up to page 12 and you've got lots of fun stuff in between to do another day.

00:54:39.520 - 00:54:55.600

Actually, I'm going to explain a little bit about what's there. So you have multiple ways that you can approach Lectio on the text and they are really fun, creative ways to pray Lectio on the text.

00:54:55.640 - 00:55:11.040

Now, for those of you who use the RCL lectionary every Monday on the back story preaching Facebook page, we pray Lectio on that Sunday's text. And so we we do some of what we're doing today.

00:55:11.720 - 00:55:21.630

So you are always welcome. And it's really fun because of course we're with colleagues from all over the place. You get lots of ideas that you wouldn't have otherwise,

00:55:21.630 - 00:55:39.430

new insights that you wouldn't have had have have had otherwise. So Monday's noon Central on the back story preaching Facebook page, you're always welcome in your packets. You've got some directions for a number of different exercises and ways that you

00:55:39.430 - 00:55:56.000

can pray Lectio and the hope is that that you come to it with again, not anxiety of the what am I going to say? But with the, the joy of discovery of what am I, What am I going to find out about God this time that I've never noticed before?

00:55:56.480 - 00:56:08.800

How is it going to have an impact on me in a way that I've never noticed before that it hasn't the last time again, if you use a lectionary, the last time we came through the lectionary, I was a different person because it was 3 or 4 years ago.

00:56:09.720 - 00:56:27.440

And So what is happening this time? So coming to the text with this sense of of what's around the next corner that I get to find today, because that's one of the great things about being a preacher is the privilege.

00:56:28.440 - 00:56:46.000

I mean, how many other professions are there where people will pay us to spend time with God? They pay us to do this. They say, oh, would you please go read scripture?

00:56:46.320 - 00:57:08.610

Would you please go pray for a while and see what you can come up with a word to bring back to us who, I mean, seriously, it is the most awesome profession on the planet because we get to do this and we get to do it every single week plus some. And so when we come to this with an, with an attitude, an idea of discovery,

00:57:08.610 - 00:57:18.440

of, of being able to come back to where people to say come and see, come and see what I just discovered, it's so cool. And I want you to know it too.

00:57:19.600 - 00:57:31.920

So the pages that you have of Lectio are some fun creative ways for you to keep doing that. Now, I am not suggesting that you would do all of those exercises every single time.

00:57:31.920 - 00:57:49.720

Nobody's got that kind of time. And if you do, I want your job. Instead, it's choosing one, maybe 2, to practice on your own and also move into the ones that might be a little more uncomfortable like there's one for.

00:57:51.600 - 00:58:03.440

I was about to offer this as an example for all and I'm I'm retracting what I was about to say. This is the example for me is drawing doing a comic strip because I am a terrible drawer.

00:58:03.440 - 00:58:15.480

Even my husband will not choose me for Pictionary. That's how bad I am. Yeah, so but it is really enlightening to draw what is happening in the text.

00:58:16.080 - 00:58:37.360

So stick figures and little speech bubbles work just great. So lots of different ways that you can pray Lexia on the text that will help you slow down to see what is exactly on the page. And the, the the sermon fodder that is there is

00:58:37.360 - 00:58:49.160

infinite that that is our greatest resource for preaching. It is not commentaries. It is not what other people have said. It's what is in the text.

00:58:50.240 - 00:59:05.840

So when we slow down enough, it, it emerges of its own accord. It is effortless on our part because the spirit shows up when we are still and quiet enough to hear it. So fun ways to go about that.

00:59:05.840 - 00:59:17.480

Yes, please. Yeah. I was just going to point out Doctor Robert Smith suggested that you read the text minimum of 50 times.

00:59:17.480 - 00:59:23.340

There you go. So Doctor Smith says to read the text a minimum of 50 times. Yeah. So this, these are ways that you, it will actually help you do maybe not 50,

00:59:23.340 - 00:59:41.960

but a whole bunch. All right, now we're going to move on to page 12 and we're going to slow down because in the first part we had a whole bunch of things to do with introductions and all of those, all of that good work.

00:59:41.960 - 00:59:58.360

And oh, I meant to ask this first. What reflections came to you during the break? Did anything arise to you and do you have any questions? Has anything come up yet?

01:00:04.420 - 01:00:20.820

Yes, please. Previous text I said concern as I used concern as an adjective to describe Jesus's feelings. And you suggested urgency.

01:00:20.820 - 01:00:36.320

And I think that that is appropriate. However. I really like the word concern, and I almost like the word fear because I I just hear fear.

01:00:36.640 - 01:00:51.720

And yet to think that God might have fear seems a contradiction. Isn't that a thought? Yeah, yeah. That's one of the reasons I love doing this is because once you start digging in

01:00:51.720 - 01:01:06.800

and asking different questions, we get different answers and then we get to wrestle with them, which is, again, one of the very fun parts about being a preacher. OK, so now we're going to shift to the text,

01:01:06.800 - 01:01:31.200

plus your back story. So now we're going to start putting those two things together. As I said at the beginning, our life experiences are going to be interpreting the text.

01:01:31.320 - 01:01:52.080

Our back story is what allows us to discover the things that we do. Things that are outside of our milieu are not going to occur to us. The only way things can come to us is because some way, shape, form, time, something came through US and it is residing in this vehicle.

01:01:54.480 - 01:02:20.170

So giving ourselves the time to discover what's in there. What is it that I have experienced that is moving me to see the text in this way? So we are going to spend some lovely introspective time and you're going to have a chance to go deep and I'm going to give you plenty of time to do some

01:02:20.170 - 01:02:36.920

personal journaling on this. Now, I realized when I was going through these that I might have slightly changed the wording of the in the diagram. So in what is God, What is God doing?

01:02:37.520 - 01:02:56.920

I might have said, what have you experienced? How have you experienced this of God? How have you experienced or have you experienced what God is doing in this text?

01:03:02.830 - 01:03:20.270

And then the second one, likewise, have you experienced the affect that you described when you did Lectio on the text? So going back to the Lectio on the text, have you experienced God's affect in the way that it came to you?

01:03:22.120 - 01:03:31.920

Have you experienced that from God? Yeah, from God Not, not. We're not talking about human realm yet. Have you experienced that from God?

01:03:36.600 - 01:03:55.040

And then what does God hope for? Have you experienced these hopes again going back to your Lexia on the text, what you've written there? Have you experienced those hopes for yourself?

01:03:55.240 - 01:04:09.840

Have you experienced those dreams from God for yourself? And it can also be, have you witnessed it? Because not we, none of us has all of the experiences, but we may have seen it, but it needs to be in real life.

01:04:10.160 - 01:04:26.160

Have you seen an example of this? Has somebody come to you in pastoral care where they have revealed I, I feel like God is what? So it can be what you've witnessed or what you personally have experienced.

01:04:26.160 - 01:04:33.320

Yes. When you say in real life, you mean not in movie form or right, not movie, right? Some real person, right?

01:04:33.360 - 01:04:44.360

It's incarnational, right? So I mean in, in real life meaning incarnational, not in media or movies or something, but in real life. Tangible for three people.

01:04:45.320 - 01:04:59.080

Say again, tangible for three people, tangible to 350. There you go. OK, yes, so have you experienced the feelings that you identified?

01:04:59.080 - 01:05:13.080

Have you experienced from God the feelings you identified in the Lectio on the text? OK, so is is are the questions making sense, right?

01:05:13.080 - 01:05:34.700

Have you right? Have you experienced or witnessed God doing these things in all three of these? OK, so I'm going to give you about 10 minutes to go through each of those circles and do some self reflection,

01:05:34.700 - 01:05:50.450

some journaling to answer those questions. What have you experienced of God based on your Lectio of the text? And if new things occur to you when you look back on the Lectio, on the text, of course, add them.

01:05:52.080 - 01:06:23.480

So we'll go until we'll go for 10 minutes. All right, finish up your thought, write your last sentence. All right, then we're going to turn to your table groups and 15 minutes because this can get into some deeper stuff.

01:06:23.480 - 01:06:37.000

So I don't want to make sure you have time enough to tell the stories you want to tell. So we're going to take 15 minutes and then we'll come back to the big group to hear your reflections.

01:06:37.560 - 01:06:53.500

So share what you're comfortable from each circle in the back story diagram. And again, when insights arose, was surprised, challenged or made you curious. So this is vulnerable, perhaps tender stuff,

01:06:53.500 - 01:07:04.000

maybe some delightful stuff as well. So what came up for you? What did you notice from your back story for each of these circles? So 15 minutes.

01:07:11.890 - 01:07:36.520

So I would love to hear from you. It sounded like conversation was animated, so which hopefully means that you were telling a lot of good stories and integrating that with God in this text. So tell me what was what happened at your table, conversations,

01:07:36.520 - 01:07:49.800

What insights came up? What surprised you? We went deep right away and I think it's because you suggested it. Good.

01:07:49.800 - 01:08:02.520

Because I think it could have been the same things we've talked about already, but you're prompt of this could get deep and we went directly deep. All right, great. Great.

01:08:04.040 - 01:08:11.680

Because that's that's where the transformation happens. Yeah. Yeah. Good.

01:08:11.680 - 01:08:22.760

What else? What came up at your converse in your conversations and for those of you on Zoom, put it into the whole group chat for you all what came up?

01:08:28.800 - 01:08:47.530

Hey, I can share. I think the recurring thing about our table is now we understand why old people tell you the same thing over and over again when you're 'cause we related to both now being the quote UN quote old people lecturing to young people like,

01:08:47.530 - 01:09:00.850

friend, this is not, this is not God's call on your life. Like, like come on. And and also reflecting on our own childhood of, of moments where grandparents or parents might have said,

01:09:00.850 - 01:09:11.750

go do this and then we chose to do this and we're like, so that's how we we related. Those are some surprising things that came up. And so, and I think the last thing is really

01:09:11.750 - 01:09:25.360

struggling with like, I don't know, sometimes making some connections to this text and, and from a tangible Incarnate way. And so like for me, one thing that came up was what's the thing that God's going?

01:09:25.360 - 01:09:34.800

Simone, we talked about this like, I can, I can, I can name that for, you know, when I've had to do it. But it's like, what's that moment where maybe God is saying like, well, we talked about this friend.

01:09:34.800 - 01:09:40.790

And so. Yeah, so. Yeah, yeah. So you know that that old saying, when the student is ready,

01:09:40.790 - 01:09:48.880

the teacher appears. Well, sometimes when the student is ready, the text appears. Yeah. And then we, it hits US in a different way.

01:09:51.160 - 01:10:09.920

What else? We spent a lot of time dealing with the aspect of, of pruning and the, and in the text, Jesus tells us I am, I am the vine and talks about the gardener.

01:10:09.920 - 01:10:24.920

And we talked about aspects of what that, what that implies and also talked about the role of, of a farmer. And, and sometimes in our mind, the context around farming versus gardening can be somewhat different.

01:10:26.240 - 01:10:46.810

I loved what Karen said about gardening, tending the vine, being more of an artistic or artisan way of approaching the message versus the more Workman like aspect of the farmer. But they both apply and this idea of pruning, I mean, in the in the text,

01:10:46.810 - 01:11:05.280

the dead branches are thrown away, but the pruning is happening so that what's left can thrive. And and seeing that play out in my own life is a real awakening. Yeah, great.

01:11:09.760 - 01:11:22.240

We, I would say at our table, we all kind of shared what feels fresh right now. And this kind of this process seemed to bring up kind of a much more personal connection and an intimate connection to who God is to us.

01:11:23.040 - 01:11:40.480

I would say in my process, I really like kind of struggled to think about how God has felt toward me. Like that circle seemed really beautifully challenging, you know, to kind of imagine what is God feeling about me,

01:11:40.480 - 01:11:56.080

especially outside of a judgmental context, Not what is God deciding about me or like what is God thinking of me or, you know, but just what does God feeling about me? So I really appreciated that process.

01:11:56.240 - 01:12:05.840

Yeah. Yeah. Because if, if we have this vast range of emotions, well, where did that come from, Right.

01:12:05.840 - 01:12:15.880

We didn't make it up. We have a God. So, yeah. So if if we have these emotions and we believe we're made of the image of God,

01:12:15.880 - 01:12:31.680

then God's got to have them too. And I presume that God doesn't particularly favour one emotion over another, but uses all of them. And that includes the really loving, compassionate, gentle ones towards us too.

01:12:32.560 - 01:12:46.360

Yeah. Of very often saying, oh, you're being way too hard on yourself. Yeah, yeah, As you can imagine, too, these are great questions to take to spiritual directors and therapists.

01:12:46.720 - 01:12:58.120

Just saying. And that's one of the things that had stood out to me, I think in the first reading was like maybe in the message, instead of saying you are already cleansed, you are already pruned.

01:12:58.720 - 01:13:07.840

I've always read this text thinking like, OK, Jesus is saying I've been pruned, you go prune. In the message version, it was like, you've already been pruned, Just stick with it.

01:13:08.240 - 01:13:12.640

Just stick with it. Stay here. Bye. So what does it mean to you when you hear that?

01:13:12.640 - 01:13:18.720

What's the difference? Yeah. Yeah. So to me, it feels like that I can't hear enough.

01:13:19.320 - 01:13:31.240

This, the message from God that I'm already enough. God has already made me enough in my baptism, you know, and and I spend so much time and energy trying to make sure that I'm enough.

01:13:31.880 - 01:13:36.320

And. And it's almost like Jesus is saying breathe. Yeah. Here we are.

01:13:36.400 - 01:13:43.540

Just be here. Yeah, abide. Yeah, Yeah. So the yeah, for me, it's kind of, you know,

01:13:43.540 - 01:13:57.160

some there's some diagnosis for some of the things going on with me. But you know, there's As for all of us let some of those things like settle away, you know, shed, you know, and just and slow. Yeah.

01:13:57.640 - 01:14:00.240

Yeah. Beautiful. Thank you. Thank you.

01:14:02.760 - 01:14:22.800

But I want to raise one of the things this brought up for me. And that was my first crisis of faith as a child, because it says what you ask for, you will get. And I had a goldfish who died, OK.

01:14:22.800 - 01:14:43.760

Now, it might be because I hadn't cleaned the bowl in a really long time. I don't know. It might have been oxygen deprivation, but as I could tell my fish was dying,

01:14:43.760 - 01:15:04.440

I was very upset and so I prayed and my fish died. So some of working with this text is also going back into what was my mind at the time. So when I was 8 years old, what did this text mean to me then?

01:15:05.440 - 01:15:19.200

What was the impact it had? What was God's affect at the time? What did God hope for? And if we believe these things are true, they have to be true all the time.

01:15:20.080 - 01:15:44.210

So even in an 8 year old brain that is not yet capable of abstract thought, what does it mean that God had hope for me at the time that could be realized? What did that mean to an 8 year old? So taking these questions with us into all of the realms of our life,

01:15:44.210 - 01:16:04.360

the stuff we go really deep and those are the stories that are already affecting what we preach. We just don't realize it. So bringing that stuff forward allows us to say, yes, I'm still there, no, I'm not.

01:16:04.760 - 01:16:30.560

And to wrestle to bring up new, new questions. All right. I want to ask offer something you learned from your conversation and then also opening it for general any questions, any questions at all?

01:16:55.930 - 01:17:16.490

Using my baggage as a catalyst instead of a hindrance. We're all going through something. Amen to that. Yep, at age 5 a group member heard God say I

01:17:16.490 - 01:17:28.510

am your father. Wow. It's a nice way to start life. Everyone struggles with self doubt at some point.

01:17:28.510 - 01:17:38.480

Yep, I witnessed the power of vulnerability in embodying the text with our stories. OK, I can go home. My job is done if that's what's happening.

01:17:38.640 - 01:17:41.920

All right, we're done for the day. That's great. We have. We have arrived.

01:17:46.320 - 01:18:02.730

Listen with expectation. Do you ever share from the stories that come up? That's a great question. How the pleading, Pruding, pleading, pruning God can be painful and yet does

01:18:02.730 - 01:18:13.320

something with that God's not an angry gardener. Similarities in our differences. Thinking about the same text from different stages of life. Yeah.

01:18:14.480 - 01:18:19.720

Inside on pitfalls of sharing back story in preaching. Yeah. Preaching from scars versus wounds. Yeah.

01:18:19.720 - 01:18:26.130

Great question. Good. We'll come to that. And if I forget questions, please bring them back up because I've

01:18:26.130 - 01:18:34.560

already forgotten the first one. I was able to add joy, sadness and patience to my understanding. Good. Do we continue to grow after death?

01:18:34.560 - 01:18:44.160

Jeez, I hope so because oh, my gosh, how boring. I mean, Can you imagine sitting on a cloud for the all of eternity strumming the same harm? Like, oh, you're great, God, you're great.

01:18:44.160 - 01:18:55.800

God, you're great. Oh, change the lyrics now. And then I hope we grow. This process teaches about the healing power of God's Word.

01:18:55.800 - 01:19:08.310

Yeah, reinforced importance of self-awareness as we encounter Scripture. Also awareness of what others bring. We all experience God in different ways, and they come forth when we look at our

01:19:08.310 - 01:19:20.280

backstories. Yeah. All right, so there was one question about scars versus wounds.

01:19:23.560 - 01:19:37.440

My colleague at Back Story Preaching, the Reverend Dr. Meredith Crigler, just finished her D men on this very question. And she is a person who lives with disabilities and so she wrote her thesis

01:19:37.440 - 01:19:48.320

on Holy Saturday preaching. So she is really a great person to look up and I presume at some point she will write a book out of this. I certainly hope so.

01:19:49.200 - 01:20:07.990

So I'll offer my take. There is a difference between preaching from the wounds that are happening on Good Friday to healing and uncertainty being in process unholy Saturday, or being redeemed, having it come through on the other side

01:20:07.990 - 01:20:25.310

by Easter Sunday. And as always, our greatest concern is for our listeners. It's not for ourselves. And so we want to make sure that if we are telling a story there, of course,

01:20:25.310 - 01:20:43.160

I'm sure you've heard this before, we're not going to give them the feeling that they've got to take care of us because that's not their job and we don't want to put them in that position. So I in many ways, because our wounds are our backstories,

01:20:43.160 - 01:21:01.320

we're already preaching from those. So there were questions about how might this be be be perceived from our listeners and how do I take care of myself? Because we are not obligated to tell any of our stories.

01:21:01.640 - 01:21:13.640

They are personal and private to us and we have boundaries. So we're not obligated. So there is do no harm to the listener. There is do no harm to the preacher.

01:21:14.560 - 01:21:34.160

And there's a level at which sharing is too vulnerable so that, yeah, it might get the point across of the text, but it is doing damage to us. And I don't believe that that is what God asks of us. So there needs to be some good self reflection.

01:21:34.160 - 01:21:48.960

If you've got questions, please, please, please, please, please vet it with somebody else who will, who will really tell you, not someone who will give you a pat on the back and say go for it, but someone who will really say, this is what I'm hearing,

01:21:48.960 - 01:22:00.040

here are the risks. Here's what you might get out of it. And we'll get to this in the the very last part about what do you do with sermons.

01:22:00.200 - 01:22:23.460

One of them is, of course, you can fictionalize stories. So you it can be your story, but you can turn it into something else. But we'll talk more about that later, please. In individuals case in point, I think about the disciples in John where

01:22:23.460 - 01:22:38.560

they had denied in in John chapter 20, where where disciples had tried to hide and run away from all their ill wills and all the proceedings of the past week. And and they thought that, you know, they were still going to be haunted down, you know, America's Most Wanted, etcetera, etcetera.

01:22:38.880 - 01:22:51.640

And then all of a sudden, Jesus appears. And that's a word for for all of us in that regardless of where we at and what we've done, he still has a way of meeting us even when we think we've closed out the world, shut out the world.

01:22:52.240 - 01:23:04.640

We can run, but we can't hide when we love that. So, yeah, we can run, but we can't hide. Yeah, we might try to avoid some things, but Jesus will always find us where we are.

01:23:05.040 - 01:23:29.290

Yeah, there was an early question. I said, Oh yeah, Karen, please. I was just thinking about, I, I've been at the same place for 18 years and I was just thinking that the, the congregation stories have also become

01:23:29.290 - 01:23:41.120

my stories. And I need to take that same care and consideration for how I'm using our back story. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

01:23:41.400 - 01:23:51.680

Yeah, 'cause this isn't only affecting our personal backstories, but we're also, we can do all of these things with executing the congregation and asking all of these questions about the people we serve.

01:23:52.080 - 01:24:01.640

Yeah. And think of the Bible studies you could do, the stories that you could elicit from your congregation if you would take some of these questions to them and see what they come up with.

01:24:01.640 - 01:24:12.160

And especially if they're they're willing to go deep with each other, you could really, you could get some great stuff. Yeah. And for their own learning.

01:24:12.160 - 01:24:19.640

I'm not saying to exploit it for the purposes of your sermon, Right. Yes. So let's be clear. It's not just for for us to gain.

01:24:19.640 - 01:24:30.200

Oh, there's a great story next Sunday. It's on. Yeah. But for their learning, Yeah, yeah, there was a question early on in the that

01:24:30.200 - 01:24:45.200

I lost pretty quickly because that's what my brain will do. It went on to the next thing, I think. Are you thinking about the one that says do you ever share from the stories that come up?

01:24:45.200 - 01:24:59.120

But I think you've just covered that. OK, great. Yeah, good. I'm sitting here just realizing that in in what Karen just said about taking into

01:24:59.120 - 01:25:18.160

account your, your churches, your congregations back story. As a lay preacher, my first reader for my sermons is my wife and I need to be concerned about because so much of my back story is also her back story.

01:25:19.240 - 01:25:34.600

So many times if I'm sharing something about my relationship with her, our marriage and whatever, that's part of that process for me. She's the first reader. She gets to veto the message if necessary.

01:25:34.640 - 01:25:47.500

Yep, Yep. Yeah. Along those lines, I urge a lot of caution when using stories about our children because they don't get a vote in that particularly

01:25:47.500 - 01:26:06.250

unless we ask them. But even then, we've got work, we've got all the power over them. So are they really going to say what they mean? But being really careful about using our own children's stories and saying a

01:26:06.250 - 01:26:31.860

little more about Holy Saturday, a little more about Holy Saturday. What I mean by that is when I think of Good Friday, I think of being in active pain with something that is very fresh, it is very raw, and it is not yet ready for public

01:26:31.860 - 01:26:51.800

consumption. But by Saturday the bleeding is stopped, Jesus is laying in the tomb, has had a few hours of rest, and the scars I like to imagine are in formation.

01:26:54.160 - 01:27:18.160

So it's not quite as healed up as it will be as we see on Sunday, but it's also not as raw as it is on Friday. So in terms of personal discernment about is, is it an, is it an appropriate time for me to tell my story?

01:27:21.120 - 01:27:49.580

It's an analogy to think through where am I at on that spectrum to decide is this, is this, am I respecting the dignity of, of my human being to share this story now? And another way to think of it, is it really the best and only story really is, I mean, is, is my story the only story that could

01:27:49.580 - 01:27:59.010

really illustrate this thing? It can't be. We get too many stories in the world. So generally speaking, I would say if if we're not sure,

01:27:59.010 - 01:28:12.400

then opt for I'm going to look for something else. And then because the story is your story, you can always use it another time or you could use it in another way. So did did that help?

01:28:13.320 - 01:28:23.320

Yes. And it reminds me of our profess, one professor saying don't stick a story in a sermon just for the sake of sticking a story in a sermon. Amen.

01:28:23.320 - 01:28:31.280

And that's been helpful. Amen. Yes. Always be able to know why is every single thing in my sermon?

01:28:31.280 - 01:28:37.960

Why am I putting it there? What's the purpose? What's the point? OK we are at lunchtime.

01:28:42.480 - 01:28:52.680

Do we have zoom up and going? OK hello everybody back from zoom in person. People are dragging their way in. I hope lunch was good but we are going to get started.

01:28:55.800 - 01:29:17.120

So we are on Part 3, but I would love to hear oh, you know what? As for Zoom people, because I forgot to pull this slide up while in person, people are coming back.

01:29:17.640 - 01:29:29.490

You can. If you've got questions for me, then please use the QR code and ask questions. And forgive me that I skipped past that slide before,

01:29:29.490 - 01:29:59.910

but you've got a chance to ask questions. 19 page 19. All right, so we are moving into part three with text plus back story equals the sermons, the spirits sermons.

01:29:59.910 - 01:30:10.440

So we're putting all of the parts together and thinking about how we might communicate. This QR code is up for the Zoom people because I forgot to give them the chance before.

01:30:10.440 - 01:30:31.480

So giving them a chance to ask questions if they have them the first thing up. So we're on page 19 and box #1 the Spirits sermon. When I talk about a sermon, I'm talking very broadly in and out of the pulpit.

01:30:31.880 - 01:30:51.080

Any form of communication, because again, we're always communicating something about God. And so whether you are officially ordained or not, or you are a youth leader or Christian Ed director, it doesn't matter.

01:30:51.080 - 01:31:16.360

Any form of communication is a way to offer the good news. OK, So the way all of this comes together as the Spirit sermon is because the good news has come through you. It has been lived through your experience.

01:31:16.880 - 01:31:36.320

And then you and the Spirit are sort of talking it out and figuring out what is it that is going to be helpful of this connection, this story and the text that is going to be in service of this community. So that's the first question is how, how are you and the spirit going to start

01:31:36.320 - 01:31:48.640

talking to each other to put this together? OK, so the question about replicating handouts, there is a copyright permissions page at the is the very last page of the packet.

01:31:48.920 - 01:31:59.720

So take a look at the copyright permissions and that should answer that question. But if you've got specifics, let me know. Thank you for asking then.

01:32:01.120 - 01:32:28.740

Authentic, genuine. The reason a sermon can be authentic to us is that it really comes from us. We're not preaching about something that's outside of us. As I said that, I was taught that somehow we're supposed

01:32:28.740 - 01:32:50.680

to keep the text pure and await untainted from human by human hands. So we're not talking about God as if God were a subject matter like biology. We are not talking around the subject as if we're sort of dancing around things and we're not getting at the heart of the matter we're preaching from.

01:32:50.960 - 01:33:09.000

We're preaching from who we are and what we know. And I love this, that authentic, going back to the etymology of the word original, genuine principle. So we did something that is authentic means it is coming originally from us.

01:33:09.600 - 01:33:34.820

It is being born from us and so genuine, natural, not acquired, it's innate. And then I love this alternative etymology is from the Latin genu knee, from a supposed ancient custom of a father acknowledging paternity of a newborn by placing it on their on their knee that they're saying this belongs to

01:33:34.820 - 01:33:48.480

me, I am mine, this one is mine, and I am this child's. We are one. And together that I love that that is one way we can understand the etymology of genuine.

01:33:52.400 - 01:34:13.060

And then we are preaching from our back story. Authentic messages at the bottom should be recognizable as the offspring between the text and our backstories. There's a way in which I own this sermon and the sermon owns me that it wouldn't,

01:34:13.060 - 01:34:40.440

It would not be mistaken as somebody else's story. It is innate to who you are, and it's really extraordinary to think that of all history, the entire entirety of the universe, there is a very finite amount of time we get your story.

01:34:42.200 - 01:35:00.680

It is so brief and we don't want to be deprived of it because nobody ever again will be able to offer the sermon that you can. And it is because of your back story. Your unique back story is what is going to make a unique sermon.

01:35:02.560 - 01:35:25.200

And if we don't get your unique sermon, we will never get your unique sermon. And it is a gift to humanity to receive your story, your interpretation of the text. So don't deprive us of that gift.

01:35:27.720 - 01:35:41.360

And then finally creating the Spirit sermon is prayerful discernment, discernment. And it's the exercises we've been doing about becoming aware of our back story, its influence on the way that we understand the text.

01:35:44.440 - 01:36:01.720

Then finally where we're going next is to now we get to kind of the hard work of it's not too difficult if our back story feels congruent with what we read in the text. It's a whole lot harder when it feels incongruent.

01:36:03.040 - 01:36:19.390

All right, so that's what we're doing next. So on page 20, there is congruence. We can feel a congruence or incongruence or both. So for example, in the pericope we use today,

01:36:19.390 - 01:36:33.520

I feel both congruence and incongruence with this particular text. So with congruence, we often feel a sense of harmony. So again, what are our feelings? What's our affect as we're reading this story?

01:36:34.200 - 01:36:47.080

There's often a sense of peacefulness and that that all is right with the world because in some senses, what we're hearing is, yes, you're right, you do understand it, you're right. And we all want to hear that we're right.

01:36:48.560 - 01:37:06.160

So what makes it feel really easy to keep going? We can feel a sense of eagerness because we want to share what we know because this is super cool. It can often feel a lot more comfortable to preach on that on that text.

01:37:06.840 - 01:37:22.680

And it might be easy to find a whole bunch of stories or anecdotes or whatever illustrations you use because it's all fitting together. It's the you've got more of a wrapped up with a neat bow feeling, not always, but often.

01:37:23.480 - 01:37:43.360

And so then when we experience congruence, we need to ask ourselves, what do I believe authentically text plus back story that I feel called to offer and I'm able to do it and why? So why this aspect of my back story?

01:37:44.080 - 01:37:54.480

What is authentic? And do I genuinely believe that I can, I can offer out to the world? And why would I do it? Because we're not preaching just to get a job done.

01:37:55.080 - 01:38:13.070

We're preaching because we have good news to share. So why is this the good news this time, this place, these people, why this part? Now? I also want to say that sometimes we need to preach a sermon that feels congruent

01:38:13.070 - 01:38:29.920

because we're too worn out by other things to tackle the incongruent. And that's OK. Again, do no harm to the preacher when we need spiritual rest ourselves.

01:38:29.920 - 01:38:50.700

It's OK to preach something that feels on the easier side. We can't do the hard stuff all the time or we can risk burn out for ourselves. The push back we get from other people can be more than we can manage and we may have things happening in our personal lives that are leaving us drained and so

01:38:50.700 - 01:38:59.960

we just don't have the energy. That's OK. So all of that, that's the where are you called to do this story right now?

01:39:00.120 - 01:39:15.220

Maybe. But if you're not, that's OK, all right, When there's incongruence with the text, that's when it gets, oh, I forgot to there we go. So when there's incongruence with the text,

01:39:15.220 - 01:39:28.300

then we're often feeling the opposite feelings. It can feel discordant. It can we might feel anxious. The story is not doesn't resonate with us and it might even contradict our beliefs,

01:39:28.300 - 01:39:53.280

experience and theology. It might contradict it and I don't believe that we as preachers are allowed to say, well, Jesus didn't mean or God meant. Our job is to wrestle with those incongruities.

01:39:53.400 - 01:40:07.880

How do we make sense of my life experiences this and the text is telling me this. What do I do with that? But I don't get to take an eraser to the text and revise it on the spot,

01:40:07.880 - 01:40:23.160

because our listeners are reading that text and they may have the same sense of incongruence, and it is a disservice to them to leave them with. But the text says they don't know what to do with it either.

01:40:24.720 - 01:40:42.430

So our, our, as in preachers wrestling with it, our wrestling with it, with our congregations to say I don't know. And that's again, why praying Lexia on the text as it is,

01:40:42.430 - 01:40:59.760

not as we wish it were. We got to deal with what it says. So taking it slowly and carefully to make sure we're clear on what it says. But when, when it's incongruent, it might, we might feel stressed out because we

01:40:59.760 - 01:41:18.440

don't know what to do with it. It might feel harder to come up with stories, anecdotes, illustrations, because everything is feeling off and awry. And then at the bottom of the pair of that column, what do I believe?

01:41:18.440 - 01:41:38.760

Authentically text and back story, but I feel called and able to offer pastorally and with integrity and why there is do no harm to the preacher and there is do no harm to the listener. We may come up with something that we disagree with or is incongruent with our

01:41:38.760 - 01:42:01.360

lives or is we just feel like I really would do want to take the scrubby to Jesus words and rewrite them to this time. But to bring that forward to the congregation and simply say for example, but Jesus didn't really mean that is not fair to them or likewise.

01:42:01.360 - 01:42:21.880

I do know, well, I do not recommend that if for example, you have a different experience in your human life and all of history and the virgin birth, that tackling that disparity, Christmas Eve is not the time to do it.

01:42:25.320 - 01:42:38.480

That does a disservice to our congregations. Christian Ed absolutely private conversations, of course, but Christmas Eve is not the time to be bringing up. I don't think it really happened this way.

01:42:38.560 - 01:42:50.160

OK, happy for you to think that, but at what point are you going to be talking about that and why? Why would you be talking about it at all? Why am I talking?

01:42:52.000 - 01:43:05.040

Wait, why am I talking? And it's corollary waste? Why am I still talking? So why are we saying these things?

01:43:05.200 - 01:43:16.800

To what end? Who is being served by it? So that's where, what can I say that is pastoral to me and the congregation that still has integrity.

01:43:16.800 - 01:43:28.560

I'm not going to lie, I'm not going to gloss over things or say everything is lovely when it isn't. So what can Ioffer with integrity that I still genuinely believe and feels congruent with my experience?

01:43:30.760 - 01:43:44.640

So when it's incongruent, it feels a lot stickier. All right, we're going to move on to page 21 and I'm going to give you some work to do. There are questions.

01:43:47.440 - 01:43:59.560

OK, so at the top it says based on your preaching text, in this case we have the checks, the text from John, but this would be of course applicable to any sermon text that you are working from and note.

01:43:59.560 - 01:44:11.720

So in this case we're working from John. What are the your points of congruence? What does congruence feel like in your body physically, emotionally, spiritually? What do you notice?

01:44:12.440 - 01:44:25.600

How does the congruence affect your relationship with God? What authentic message might you preach? And then also questions of incongruence. What are the points of incongruence?

01:44:25.600 - 01:44:35.680

What does that feel like? How does that affect your relationship with God? And what's an authentic message you might preach? So you we won't have time to do all of those questions.

01:44:35.680 - 01:44:50.520

I want you to choose the column, or you can go back and forth if you wish. Whatever questions have the most energy for you, whatever questions you find most compelling, I want you to answer on the basis of the John text.

01:44:51.240 - 01:45:14.240

And then we're going to turn to small groups. So I'm going to give you 5 minutes. So you've got 5 minutes to do some self reflection and then we'll turn to table groups and small groups, right?

01:45:14.240 - 01:45:33.940

Let's turn to your tables. And as usual, we're actually going to do 5 minutes in table groups and then we'll return to the big group for conversation. So based on the text from John, as you're comfortable,

01:45:33.940 - 01:45:48.520

share your reflections about congruence or incongruence with the text. 5 minutes. All right, let's come back to the main room. You know the drill.

01:45:53.890 - 01:46:16.400

So in Zoom, put it your comments in the chat for all and here in the room with surprise challenged or made you curious, what insights did you have whether it was sort of general table group conversation or you personally, it all works.

01:46:16.640 - 01:46:33.480

So what did you notice? Yeah, please. Thank you. So much of what I wrote was in between congruence and incongruence.

01:46:34.680 - 01:46:49.320

And I think for me, there's a lot of like with, with this text, the invitation to abide and trust that the fruit bearing will happen when you're abiding. I'm so on board with that.

01:46:49.320 - 01:47:04.140

Theologically, I love that theology at spiritually that feels like that's true. But emotionally, I have so many strong messages embedded in me that like I, I have to bear fruit to earn abiding,

01:47:04.140 - 01:47:16.120

you know, like the reverse. And so I find that's often my hardest place in preaching is when I I kind of met the sort of like, yeah, I think that's true, but I'm not sure what that feels like.

01:47:16.240 - 01:47:26.240

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And anybody share the feeling of I have to bear fruit in order to be able to abide, to be be brought into the group? Yeah.

01:47:26.240 - 01:47:29.160

Perfectionism. It's. Yeah. Yeah.

01:47:29.960 - 01:47:35.560

Thank you, Taylor. Good. What else? What I was thinking about the idea that.

01:47:36.160 - 01:47:45.520

Well, the first incongruence I ran into in this passage is verse three. You have already been cleansed by the word. How many?

01:47:46.160 - 01:48:00.160

Well, I would ask for a show of hands, but I'm not in the sanctuary right now. Do we really feel that? Can we really embrace that? And, and there's a, there's a very strong feeling in me.

01:48:00.160 - 01:48:12.600

I am, I don't know. I struggle with understanding what that means that I am already cleansed by the word. So there's a humility that's coming in there that I think I run into with every

01:48:12.600 - 01:48:21.600

text I try to preach to. Yeah. And imagine that the invitation of what if you did believe it? What if you did trust it?

01:48:21.800 - 01:48:36.780

What, what would be different in your life if you actually trusted that there's sermons in that. Yes. One of the things that we were talking about that feels like a push pull is the

01:48:36.780 - 01:48:47.120

you're already cleansed. And I I do abide in you and this wonderful, comforting language. And then also, by the way, you might be dead wood and get thrown in the fire.

01:48:47.360 - 01:49:00.080

And we were saying, like, the congregation is going to hear that. And if you don't deal with that, they're going to walk away saying you left it out. So that tension between what seems to be a mixed message there.

01:49:00.160 - 01:49:14.520

Yeah. And for for those of us who have to live with the lectionaries, I'm an Episcopalian, so I am duty bound right when both of those show up in the text.

01:49:14.560 - 01:49:23.720

And it's like, I only have so much time to preach. I got to pick something here. And so it's it's it's a real dilemma because you're not going to preach on all the things.

01:49:24.720 - 01:49:28.480

Yeah. So it's really hard. Yeah. Good.

01:49:28.480 - 01:49:51.560

Thank you. So just following up on that, you know, you you talked to the idea that it may not be the right time for me to to preach into the discomfort, but maybe sometimes it's not the right time to preach into it for the community.

01:49:51.720 - 01:50:02.880

That's right. Yeah. So I'm going to lean somewhere. I may lean on what's congruent and what's more universal in Scripture.

01:50:04.720 - 01:50:19.120

Yeah, we absolutely have to exede our congregation to make our best estimate about how much they can bear. So one of the ways I talk about it is the brittleness of the congregation, how brittle is the congregation?

01:50:19.240 - 01:50:37.880

So how much are they able to take before they will break and at so how strong, at what pace and how often? Because we we can't, we can't do really hard messages and bring them into discomfort all the time.

01:50:38.160 - 01:50:53.360

That's more than most of us can manage. So it's figuring out what how much can the congregation tolerate for their own capacity to wrestle with the word. I think that's a huge challenge right now in this day and time as well.

01:50:53.400 - 01:51:04.610

Yes, it is. Yes it is and it is. Well, my experience working with working preachers, because I only work with working

01:51:04.610 - 01:51:25.840

preachers is the, the amount of emotional bandwidth and capacity to make decisions is drastically diminished. I was looking at this text and, and just looking at my congregation in terms of preaching on, you know, fruit and all of that.

01:51:26.280 - 01:51:42.360

Well, our Congress even before I got there has there's been no growth and actually there's been decline. And so I, I I'm sitting here thinking about, well, yeah, I could really preach on this text.

01:51:42.360 - 01:52:03.930

But what with the congregation receipt, when they, when they hear these words, when they reflect on the Scriptures, what, what they feel somehow that if you're not experiencing numerical growth, does that mean you're not bearing fruit? What, What you know, So there's a lot of different ways you

01:52:03.930 - 01:52:08.320

can go with it. Absolutely. What does it mean to bear fruit? How do you know that it's happened?

01:52:09.040 - 01:52:19.880

What does it look like? Yeah, Yeah, yeah. Anything. What else?

01:52:20.680 - 01:52:45.040

Time for one more please, Ted, I think it is important to consider what their bandwidth is, the congregation's bandwidth at any given week to week. And we certainly don't want to go over the Cliff overestimating or or self

01:52:45.040 - 01:53:10.500

indulging with what what what you read from wherever you're reading from your own life or circumstances. But I think it's really important in the Longview not to under evaluate or underestimate where they are because we all move along in the journey

01:53:10.500 - 01:53:31.560

incrementally and usually in small increments, millimeters. And and so to not lose sight of that fact, we may have a tendency to be underestimating ourselves and then thus projecting that on the congregation. And I think it's important to to keep that balance.

01:53:31.640 - 01:53:47.890

That's a great point. That's a great point, which is another reason why it is so important that we are preachers in community with each other. It's, I think it is one of the, the bizarre disservices to the church and

01:53:47.890 - 01:54:06.280

especially to us that somehow we got the message that we are a church by definition, a, a community, a body of Christ. Unless you're a preacher and then you go off to your own study and you do your own work.

01:54:06.280 - 01:54:20.950

And we feel like it's cheating if we talk to anybody else. I mean, that's that that is incongruent with what we understand to be the body of Christ. It is the only place I know of where it is encouraged for people to go off by

01:54:20.950 - 01:54:32.360

themselves to do all of their own work. It's the only one in all of the church that I know of. So I want to know. We need each other because we need to bounce each other.

01:54:32.520 - 01:54:42.240

Like I need you to tell me am am I wimping out on this or do I really need to go there? Let me tell you about my congregation. What do you hear and what I'm describing?

01:54:42.480 - 01:54:49.840

So what's my balance? We need each other because we are so blind to ourselves. Thank you for raising that, Ted. Yeah.

01:54:50.480 - 01:55:01.910

Yeah. Please. I need you a mic, please. And and as a result of that, you'll believe you're own male,

01:55:01.910 - 01:55:17.880

but also you'll end up, I guess, putting yourself on the Isle of Patmos again, because like you said, you'll just go back and forth, prepare. And then you you don't communicate nor do you associate. And then you just go back and do your thing.

01:55:17.880 - 01:55:28.120

And then it's just a ritual. Yeah, right now, fortunately that's not me. Of course not. And I would never would have occurred to me or or or anybody in here.

01:55:28.120 - 01:55:42.400

I was just saying hypothetically, I'm I'm just saying no one in here. But but I'm, I'm just saying I've heard, you know, yes, rumor has it. Yeah, but but but fortunately I have an accountability group and some and some other brothers that I'm close to.

01:55:42.400 - 01:55:53.080

So great personally, that's not my case. That's great. All right, turning the page 22 to ways to offer the message.

01:55:56.040 - 01:56:06.680

I'm not going to go through these in great detail. I will. I'm going to trust that your training in homiletics is going to make this sound pretty familiar.

01:56:11.640 - 01:56:20.410

OK, So different ways that we can offer the message. So as I said before, we can tell stories. So if we want to use one of our own stories,

01:56:20.410 - 01:56:34.190

it doesn't have to be telling it in the first person. We can make it second person or third person. We can make it semi or autobiographical. The way that it I think that it maintains the integrity that it's still a true

01:56:34.190 - 01:56:43.400

story is that it is containing the kernel of truth. It's like parables didn't actually happen. Are they true? Yes, right.

01:56:43.840 - 01:57:03.730

So when we find what the essence is, essentially what we're doing is we're writing a parable about the message that we are trying to communicate. So as long as that essence is true, then I, I think we have ample evidence in Scripture to be able to write our own

01:57:03.730 - 01:57:11.360

parables. We can also write a whole story, sermons where the entire sermon is a story, which happens to be one of my favorite things to do.

01:57:11.560 - 01:57:22.810

I have to be careful not to do it too often because I love writing whole, whole sermon stories. And then we can, of course, fictionalize a true story to protect anonymity, especially if it is a story we have

01:57:22.810 - 01:57:35.120

witnessed. And of course, whenever you know, ethically get people's permission, even if it's being fictionalized, if it's somebody who might be around or whatever, get their permission whenever possible.

01:57:37.640 - 01:57:57.090

So if if listeners are likely to share feelings of incongruence, name it. And that goes back to the sometimes you can only preach on so much. And so it's OK to start off by saying I'm preaching on this. I know the text also says this tune back in in three years or we'll talk about it

01:57:57.090 - 01:58:12.600

in Christian Ed or yeah, but to name the elephant in the room so it's not distracting can be one way to do that. But also allowing leaders sort of going back to what Ted was saying about letting listeners feel the tension.

01:58:13.120 - 01:58:25.440

So don't, don't give them an easy out. Leave them with feelings of incongruence. What what we know neurologically is that human beings cannot stand to leave a question unanswered.

01:58:26.520 - 01:58:37.640

Now this is where we get misinformation and assumptions and all sorts of things because we will fill in the blank automatically because we can't stand to that tension. So we'll fill it in with any answer.

01:58:37.640 - 01:58:57.320

It doesn't have to be a true or correct answer, it just has to be an answer. But this is where leaving congregations, leaving sermons with questions is so powerful because people will be compelled. They've got to answer it somehow, so they will be wrestling with it.

01:58:57.760 - 01:59:15.200

So tension is a way of creating questions, so not giving people an easy way out. Let them feel it and wrestle with it themselves. If incongruence can't be resolved or it feels too tender or vulnerable for the preacher, preach about something else.

01:59:15.360 - 01:59:25.560

Again, do not do no harm to the preacher. So you don't have to preach on like it's very common in my tradition for people to preach on the gospel. We don't have to.

01:59:26.040 - 01:59:40.390

And a great time to pull out one of the songs instead. So there we're not, there's not a compulsion to preach on something that is going to be too difficult for the preacher. If not, mentioning the incongruence would be

01:59:40.390 - 01:59:47.800

distracting, but you still plan to preach on something else. I said that sort of name the elephant as this preamble, or of course, you can do it in the prayers.

01:59:48.200 - 02:00:00.780

Christian Ed newsletter is another way to do that. So there are multiple ways. You can still name what isn't being talked about. You can preach a teaching sermon to better understand the incongruities of

02:00:00.780 - 02:00:13.880

the text, again, without necessarily resolving the tension. So just raise it up and say the text says this. Most of us have the experience of that. How are we going to put this together?

02:00:13.880 - 02:00:30.320

So let's dig into the text to understand better what it says. So a teaching sermon can be a great way to deal with a difficult sermon. You can use show images or an object or use music to evoke an experience of congruity or incongruity.

02:00:30.520 - 02:00:45.660

So it doesn't have to be only the spoken word. There are lots of different ways that we can bring in feelings that we want people to experience in a sermon. So in the show don't tell vein of things is you can hold an object in in your hand

02:00:45.660 - 02:01:03.140

to create curiosity and what do we do with it? You can show a picture that gets at what you want people to think or feel. And of course, music also. So have the organist played a minor or a major chord going improvising in the

02:01:03.140 - 02:01:15.160

background to create evoke a feeling and then past really choose the occasion to name incongruities. Like I said, Christmas Eve is probably not the time to talk about the virgin birth.

02:01:15.160 - 02:01:33.750

Great. OK, so we are now at questions. Oh, you've got some pages for more questions for reflections, but we are here.

02:01:33.750 - 02:01:47.800

So questions about the about ways to preach, questions about any part of the process we've talked about today congruence or incongruence that you have experienced in this workshop. So what are your questions?

02:01:48.000 - 02:02:04.180

And it can be about sort of preaching in general, like I've always wanted to ask about X. So what are your questions? Or have we come to the sleepy time of the day that it's like,

02:02:04.180 - 02:02:32.000

I don't know if I can Buster any up. I get a lot of comments about the stole I'm wearing my haircut, my hair color, my shoes, my robe. I guess the best thing is to say thank you and move on.

02:02:35.800 - 02:02:43.190

Yeah? Yeah. Yeah. And there's also, you know, if it's, you know,

02:02:43.190 - 02:03:06.950

I think one of the difficult things for us as pastors, maybe more so for most women, is that we try to be nice and polite, that we think pastoral means that we got to be nice all the time. And I think sometimes the most pastoral thing to to say can be depending on

02:03:06.950 - 02:03:17.280

circumstances and a a host of things is I'm really glad that you like my hair, but in the future, don't worry about it. I I don't need to hear. Yeah.

02:03:17.520 - 02:03:30.460

Is, is to start finding ways to say that's not OK. Gentle, but firm and likely that if people test those boundaries, we got to say it again and again and

02:03:30.460 - 02:03:44.160

again because they're going to push back on it, but be able to figure out ways to say, Yep, that's what it is. Next time, I don't need your feedback. Yeah, I don't.

02:03:44.160 - 02:03:55.200

I don't need your feedback. Yeah, but it takes it takes guts and courage and people won't like it. But that's that is part of respecting the dignity of our human being.

02:03:55.920 - 02:04:01.080

Yeah. Of saying that's that's too far. That's too far. Yeah.

02:04:03.760 - 02:04:22.460

What is the difference between preaching the sermon and giving the toastmaster's speech? Well, I, I will first say I've never actually heard a genuine Toastmaster speech, but I, this speech is, In general,

02:04:22.460 - 02:04:35.680

I would say it has to do with what is the preacher's sense of the stake in it and what you actually believe. And sermons by their very nature are always persuasive. I'm trying to persuade you.

02:04:35.720 - 02:04:43.000

This is really good news. And I'm going to tell you why I think it's good news. What you do with it is up to you afterwards, but I am trying to persuade you.

02:04:43.320 - 02:04:59.270

This is great. Whereas a, a speech can be, can talk around it can talk about, it can be information giving, it isn't necessarily persuasive and it doesn't necessarily have a, a text, a subtext around it saying I really want

02:04:59.270 - 02:05:12.520

this to change your life because I think this matters. I really want this to change the world because I think it can. So does that help? Yeah, good.

02:05:13.200 - 02:05:25.640

I also think one of the gifts of preaching in it and you've spoken to this and, and what you're teaching is, is the ongoing relationship that we have with congregations. You know, if you watch a Ted talk, that person gets one shot, right?

02:05:25.760 - 02:05:34.100

And yeah, they work on it really hard and they do a good job. But we get an ongoing conversation. And so we can choose when's the best time to have that that part of the

02:05:34.100 - 02:05:40.520

conversation. And so it, it allows us more opportunities to to dig into all of this. Yeah, Right.

02:05:40.800 - 02:05:47.960

Yeah. I'm glad you raised that because the, the relationship aspect, the ongoing unfolding, it takes time. We're moving in millimeters.

02:05:48.280 - 02:06:06.240

Yeah, that's absolutely critical. I'd like to follow that up with another statement about the the relationship that a pastor has with a congregation. I know when I first started out, I only took baby preaching.

02:06:06.240 - 02:06:25.770

I did not take senior preaching and I had not intended to become a preaching pastor. I'd intended to be a chaplain. So those first years were really difficult for me. I came down to three questions that I tried to ask myself before every,

02:06:25.770 - 02:06:37.000

every time I started as a sermon. And the first was, what does the text say? And then the second was, what will I say based on what the text says?

02:06:37.720 - 02:06:44.600

And the third was, how will I say it so that the people can hear and will listen. Yeah. Great.

02:06:44.840 - 02:06:52.680

Love those questions. Thank you for offering those. Those are terrific. Let's see, we've got some from Zoom.

02:06:53.440 - 02:07:04.480

What do you prefer? Congruence versus incongruence? Oh, depends on the on the the the text of the week was happening in my life.

02:07:04.480 - 02:07:16.930

But I would say sort of in general I like incongruence because I learn more. It's the wrestling. That's where the meat happens. I may not enjoy the process, but I usually like what I learn on the

02:07:16.930 - 02:07:34.080

other side. Tips for promoting naivete and Lexi when everything else is jumping in. So I assume by everything else it's thoughts, questions to do lists and so on. Be quiet before you start.

02:07:35.880 - 02:07:54.970

Pray remember the intention behind it. Why am I doing this? What am I hoping to gain and especially the I want to come to God as a little child and sit at Jesus knee and say, what do you got for me today and that

02:07:54.970 - 02:08:14.560

sense of I'm soaking this in for the first time and it's a practice because this is hard for nearly everybody. And so keep keep iterating it and it'll get easier. When do I start a sermon for the following Sunday.

02:08:21.160 - 02:08:34.320

OK, so I'm going to so this is what we do at Back Story Preaching. So I recommend doing a sermon prep over several days. And there are a couple of reasons for that.

02:08:34.320 - 02:08:49.520

One is what we know from the neuroscience of creativity is that creativity is happening in the blank spaces. It's when we are not working on the thing, that stuff happens. That's why you go to sleep at night and you wake up in the morning and oh,

02:08:49.520 - 02:09:04.040

there's the thing, OK, that happens to all of us. That's, that is part of our neural wiring. So that's why taking walks, going, taking showers so that there is time. So when when we put time in between the aspects of prep,

02:09:04.040 - 02:09:18.600

it's actually we get more out of it. Things will go faster because it's more, we give more creative time, more space and that makes it more efficient because then we're not working so hard because the stuff, that's when stuff just gets handed to us.

02:09:19.120 - 02:09:29.080

I mean, we don't have to do anything. It just gets given to us. So I recommend spacing it out and also giving enough time for revisions at the end.

02:09:30.680 - 02:09:48.990

So there are pros and cons to everything and everybody's schedule is different and there are seasons of life when it changes. But the more we can offer that space, the less stress it brings. And one of the things we we do all the time at back story preaching is finishing

02:09:48.990 - 02:09:56.800

sermons by Friday. So that literally back story preaching has saved marriages. I, that is not hyperbole. I'm not kidding.

02:09:57.040 - 02:10:14.670

We have saved marriages because the stress in the household was so high because of always doing sermon prep on Fridays and Saturdays. And I want to just to, to put this in perspective. If you are doing your sermon prep during, on your Sabbath days, your personal time,

02:10:14.670 - 02:10:31.100

because there's no other time to do it, you, you are preaching as a volunteer. I want you to hold that in perspective. That is you are volunteering to preach. And if that is OK with you and it is OK with your household,

02:10:31.100 - 02:10:43.320

then godspeed and keep doing it. If it's if it's working, don't fix it. But if that is not working, you are the only one who can change it. Nobody is going to rescue us.

02:10:43.520 - 02:10:51.640

Nobody's going to come and pat us on the back and say, Gee, this is too bad and you're working too hard. No, they're not going to do that. We are the only ones.

02:10:51.640 - 02:11:05.150

We control our systems, so we're the only ones who can change it. But that takes time. It takes time to get us into that mess. It takes time to get us out of it, so we offer ways to do that and support

02:11:05.150 - 02:11:21.440

to help you get out of that so that your sermons are most of the time, they're always exceptions, but most of the time they are done before they are done when you want them done, depending on your schedule. Yeah, I had a a sage season.

02:11:21.480 - 02:11:35.080

The pastor from, from years gone by that, that always poured, poured into me and, and some other men. And he always instructed us like, like you were saying, essentially come Monday and then be done by Friday.

02:11:35.400 - 02:11:46.110

And, and he, he used the term always have a skeleton. And eventually by the time you get to Friday, you'll hopefully have some meat on it. But in reality, as everyone in here can probably attest

02:11:46.110 - 02:12:02.180

to, that's in an ideal world. Sometimes you might have 4 funerals in one week. Sometimes you might have to go visit four people in the hospital in one week. Sometimes you might get a call at 2:00 or 3:00 in the morning and then have to tend

02:12:02.180 - 02:12:12.440

to that and then turn around and go to a funeral or go do something else related to, to ministry. And then boom, Fridays there and you're like, wait a minute, what happened to Tuesday and Wednesday in

02:12:12.440 - 02:12:22.980

there? You know, and, and then that's that's why I fortunately, because like you mentioned your routine and, and because of, of study and preparation and because of stuff that you didn't,

02:12:22.980 - 02:12:34.080

thought was naive during the week, that God was depositing that into you. And then come Friday, you look down, Oh, that's my sermon. You didn't, you didn't literally prepare for it, but right.

02:12:34.120 - 02:12:46.680

It, it arrives too. Yeah, you got to be penetrated, right? And it's also why I really recommend starting at least reading the texts for the next week, praying Lectio on Sunday or Monday,

02:12:46.680 - 02:13:02.360

at least a week so that when you get, we have that expression, we say getting lifed, you got lifed so that when you get lifed, which will happen, you've at least got those texts rolling around in you and you were carrying them with you through the week.

02:13:02.680 - 02:13:22.560

And that is just just in and of itself is a huge advantage. Tips for teaching or supporting lay persons to use these techniques? There is no difference. Just use them as is because it works regardless.

02:13:22.560 - 02:13:31.400

So it's this. This stuff works regardless of the form of communication. It works for every form of communication. It works for every form of ministry.

02:13:31.720 - 02:13:43.840

So use it as is and of course adapt them all to to your own personalities and what works for you. Have you seen Baxter preaching affect the spirituality of congregations and audiences?

02:13:44.120 - 02:14:01.140

I am told by by people in our program that it does. So I'm not out actually witnessing that myself, but I am told that it does. I mean, what I hear is that people listeners pick up on the difference in the preacher immediately when they one,

02:14:01.140 - 02:14:21.330

they start feeling closer to God and that affect is coming through. And then the other thing is we teach right away how to preach. 1 clear message of good news, 1 clear message of good news. And so when preachers start preaching with just one message that people can

02:14:21.330 - 02:14:31.800

follow through, those are the two things that people pick up on instantly. And those things are those are things that we help with fairly quickly. All right, my time is up.

02:14:32.120 - 02:14:37.840

So unfortunately life be lifing. That's. Yeah, I love that. Unfortunately, life be lifing.

02:14:37.840 - 02:14:49.090

That's great. So if you want to learn more about backstreet preaching, of course, go to the website. We do all sorts of things from if you want to go deeper into some of what we

02:14:49.090 - 02:15:10.740

talked about this time, you can join our ongoing membership. We also run a sermon camp every August, September that goes deeper into this. If you want to do a really deep dive, we have our mentorship and which applications are going to come up in May and which is where back story preaching

02:15:10.740 - 02:15:28.300

began is with our year long mentorship and since 2016. And two things I will say at the moment about it, 1 is that of all the exit surveys we've ever received, we are still batting 1100% of of participants recommend this program to

02:15:28.300 - 02:15:39.860

their colleagues 100%. And the other is we have so much data about the efficacy of this program that we guarantee it. You go through this program, you get to the end of it and if you have

02:15:39.860 - 02:15:52.600

done all the things and you get to the end of it and say this was not worth my time or money, we will refund you 100% and nobody has ever taken us up on it. So go to the website and you can learn all the things.

02:15:52.600 - 02:16:20.910

And of course reach out to me anytime lisa@backstorypreaching.com and thank you. Any of you would be willing to have a survey? So I just want to say those of you that are online, we have AQR code that you should be able to see and we'll keep that on for a while

02:16:20.910 - 02:16:33.160

so that you don't, don't, don't run off until you complete this survey. We are offering a book, Lisa Cressman's Back Story Preaching to those of you that fill out your survey.

02:16:33.360 - 02:16:49.560

So even if you're online, if you want to get us your address, we will mail you a copy of Lisa Cressman's book Back Story Preaching. And for those of you in the room, you can either hand back the paper copy that we've given to you or use this QR code to fill out a survey.

02:16:50.120 - 02:17:01.320

And again, just show us on your phone that you filled it out and we will give you your book. So just want to thank you again for being here on a Saturday when you all had other things that you could be doing.

02:17:01.880 - 02:17:16.080

And if you want to mark your calendar, we have another workshop that's scheduled for the end of August, the Saturday of Labor Day weekend. So, so if you have some free time and want to join us, the Reverend Dr.

02:17:16.080 - 02:17:31.480

Alice McKenzie, who teaches at Perkins School of Theology, will be joining us about storytelling. And so if you're interested in learning more about preaching and storytelling, she's written, literally written the book on this.

02:17:31.960 - 02:17:44.800

And so we're really excited to have her. And there will also be an opportunity to receive that book in the mail if you pre register. So look for emails on how to register and how to get that book in the mail so that

02:17:44.800 - 02:17:59.680

you can be prepared for her workshop with us at the end of August Labor Day weekend. And that's all that we have for. Just want to ask you to thank Lisa with me why this has been such a treat. Thank you so much.

02:17:59.800 - 02:18:08.040

Thank you so much. Yeah. Literally, she's helped thousands and thousands of preachers all over the world with her program, Back Story Preaching.

02:18:08.200 - 02:18:17.800

And you have the information there on your packet about how to contact her. So again, look forward to continuing to see where this ministry goes. So thank you so much.

02:18:17.960 - 02:18:19.560

Thank you again. We'll see you around.