00:00:09.770 - 00:00:28.060

Hi, I'm Phil Browning Helsel and, uh, professor of pastoral care here at Austin Seminary, and it's my delight to to, uh, introduce the Westerfelt lecture. Um, the, uh, the

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Reverend Doctor Reggie Williams, who is, uh, associate professor of theological studies at Saint Louis University in the College of Arts and Sciences, um, that's a Research one, Jesuit university, um, and

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he he just took that job and was before that , um, professor of ethics at McCormick Theological School for 12 years, um. I have known Doctor Williams for a short time, but I already sense

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a pastor's heart and a pastoral imagination behind his work um if I could describe his work, it might be recovering black and Afrocentric thought as an indispensable wellspring and foundation for all Christian ethics. Let me just

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mention briefly some of his um. Important publications his recent book Bonhofer's Black Jesus Harlem Renaissance Theology and an ethic of ethic of resistance, um. Was published in 2021 and he's currently working on a book Holy

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Holy An Ethics after Whiteness and a commentary on Joshua and Judges. I am not the kind of person to go on and on in an introduction, but if I could, I would point you. To

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, um, his, uh, if you want a snapshot of Doctor Williams' brilliance. Empathy engagement in the current world. I'd recommend his a letter to my daughter after the fall of Roe in the recent

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Christian century, um, uh, July 27th, 2022, and reading that you'll get a snapshot of both his, uh, intelligence and his personally ref reflective and grounded brilliance, um, rooted in relationships

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and, uh, alive with an embodied Christology. So that's my quick introduction. Thank you so much and let's welcome Doctor Reverend Doctor Williams, Reggie Williams . Wow. I mean, I've had, I've

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had several introductions, but none that just like took my breath away. Um, and, and a description of. I mean of me and, and , and of my work, especially with regard to

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what I'm doing my project in theology and ethics, he nailed it. He didn't ask me, he didn't ask me. I don't know how, but he nailed it, my gosh, um. I

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am delighted to be here. And you know, I mean in the context of so much anxiety that we are all. At least those of us who feel Um, are experiencing, it is just so

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very good to be in a room with people like yourselves. We need each other now. More than me we we have ever really needed each other. If we ever needed each other, we know we

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need each other today. I mean, It's been what? 8 days? How many has it been ? Some of us are counting the hours, um , and, and we are under great duress and

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these spaces are where we find strength. So, um, I walked into the space downstairs and one of my neighbors from grad school in student housing, um, Bobby. Greeted me. I mean,

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I saw, I saw a face like, I know you, and he just went on. I mean, it's so wonderful to see about, uh , neighbor from gra uh, in grad school,

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and I know I have friends online. My niece is coming to see me here on today as well . So anyway, this is a lot. I'm taking I'm using some precious time. um, I

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send you greetings from Saint Louis University where I am now on, on, um, theology faculty. Um, I was once in your one of your , um, sibling seminaries, McCormick Theological Seminary.

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Also working on another book called The Bonhoeffer Conundrum of a complicated Christian Response to fascism. Um, that's a trade book with Broadleaf Press, and when I signed that contract, um. We didn't know The

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situation we would be in, so I'm feeling some urgency to write that one to get that one completed as well, um, right away, uh, um, so and I also have to say that

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because my publisher might be listening to this, um , I am not, I am working on it . I'm working on it, so, um. That said, John was brilliant this morning, wasn't

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he? Absolutely brilliant. I'm sitting back there and I'm like furiously trying to take notes and mental notes because there's a lot of resonance with what I'm wanting to offer. I was also deeply moved in conversation

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with Professor Farley this morning with the other lecturers. There's so much resonance. It was, it was wonderful to hear some of the thoughts that are germinating in my mind, um, that are just standard

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in work that she's doing. I mean her work , um, this, this resonance and how we see what we, what we mean by theological education as well, hugely important. Let me jump in

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um on that note. And describe, I mean I had a I had a response or at least the the title of this lecture was a problem of the human. As a problem for Christian ethics.

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John asks the question, how did we get here ? How did we get here? You pose that question. To any number of theologians, you'll get a number of different answers. Right? You pose

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that question to specific kinds of theological ethicists like myself , and you'll get what I'm going to give you today. You are all somewhat guinea pigs for me if you don't mind. This is coming this over

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the next two days you'll get. I know, a kind of an a snippet of chapter one. And of the final chapter of what I'm working on and I'd love to get your feedback, OK,

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so I, um, and you know, in the conversation if you hear stuff I'm I tried to rid it of jargon so that it would make sense of it better, um, and I, I

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hope that that that it does today, but how did we get here? To begin with, I would say this, an intro to what I'm going to say. If you come away with anything,

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I hope this is what you come away with. In the ongoing story of life together. What we're talking about this morning for breakfast. That has multiple authors, all of them in Europe. We are

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trying to make sense of the story's main character. The protagonist, i.e. The human He, and this is, I don't, that's not just a mistake . He is the central figure animating our understanding of

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everything, including God, who has appeared in time as one in whom we now must find ourselves. The human The European version of this character. Is what we are living. And he needs contrast in

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order to be seen, distinction. Difference, antagonism . He In this story, is troubled by the loss of distinction or change. In Hitler's Germany, it was the Jew diluting Aryan blood. Mixing it

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So that you don't have a clear picture of the Aryan distinction. Black in Jim Crow, mixing with white and today. So you don't have a distinction of white. Large Mexican presence in the United States

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, washing out European origins. Women in men's roles . 2nd grade Johnny. Coming home from school as Jane. You don't, you need the distinctions. And in a in a moment of transition, the

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distinctions are reinforced. However real they actually are. It is this version of the human that gives us both these fears of loss. And that reproduces antagonism to recognize, to recognize the ideal status of the

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human. That's in a nutshell the argument. Now let's see how that works when we break that down . Um, I could, I know that there are some students here who have read my book and

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I let me, um, the book on the book on Bonhofer let me, let me, um , also state that what you're going to hear is kind of an outgrowth of that in that in that

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book on Bonhofer I'm describing um how he comes to the United States and and he encounters in black Christianity . Um, something that's conversion inducing for him, and he goes back to Germany and then becomes a

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resistor, um, to his death. Um, it is both the European version of Christ and human . That receives troubling when he encounters a black space . It goes back, isn't able to rec is

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able to recognize the harmful nature of those forced antagonisms we call white supremacy. So, without further ado . What I'm starting with is this. Early Christian cosmology. Medieval, you might say. Before that

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, saw the world in very clear terms. The universe, as it were, in very clear terms . God. In heaven Uh, the earth. As a middle space between heaven and hell. The

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sun orbit the uh uh the earth. Being orbited by the sun. You know, um, Earth centered universe. And theology and understanding of human being is constructed. In this cosmology. I know the

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picture of the cosmology. Heaven Earth and hell below . Many of the theologians that we might read, including our Bible itself, is cast in this kind of is structured in this kind of understanding of the

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world. Which is why it's important to recognize that in the process of theological education you must do more than simply repeat the sounds of the people who came before us. We need to engage imagination so that

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we can make sense of God in our time. Through the advancements of science. Which some Christians fear and hate. You will come to recognize that the world Is actually And the universe is different. A

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beginning in an expansion, and we are not being orbited by the sun. But we are hurling, as it were, through space. At um at incredible speed. Going around the sun that is going

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around a black hole. What Does our understanding of God look like in light of this? How does our theology recognize. Our existence in this reality. That is important because what we understand as human.

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Is in fact an outgrowth of early interpretations of uh earth centered world. I mean earth centered universe. Then in fact the engagement with human being is still structured by the scaffolds put in place in this.

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This reality Um, and I'll show you what I , what I mean by that. In December of 1948. The 3rd meeting. Of the General Assembly of the United Nations took place at the Palais de

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Chalo in Paris, France. That was just 3 years after a united military alliance ended the Nazi macabre theater that was Adolf Hitler's blood soaked wish dream of a global endless Aryan empire. There in the shadow

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of Paris, Eiffel Tower and in the wake of the outrages of the Holocaust. 48. Of the 58 nations attending the meeting voted to approve the newly offered Universal Declaration of Human Rights. The former first

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lady, Eleanor Roosevelt chaired the committee that drafted the declaration. And in her memoirs, she remembered that there was debate on the committee. About how western the ideas were that guided the assembly of the document

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. The Western source of the declaration's content should leave no surprises given the world events that occasioned the meeting and the location where it happened. Nazi atrocities were largely the motivation for the theme of the gathering and

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the tools on hand to respond to the catastrophe were part of an old and familiar European discourse. When I use the word discourse, I'm borrowing from uh a way that um a a cultural critic, Sylvia

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Winter makes use of the word discourse, the language that produces the reality we speak of. It's talking about language that creates a knowledge of reality. Assembled member states ratified the historical Universal Declaration of Human Rights

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. In response to Nazism, in a document that resided within a genre. You know, genre like jazz, classical. You know country resided within a genre that included earlier iterations, its specific genre.

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Was the was could be seen in earlier versions of it. The US Declaration of Independence. The French 1789 Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen. All of which shared a history of human

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rights dating back to the birth of European Renaissance humanism . Members of the newly assembled United Nations understood the need to reify urgently the humanist principle of universal human rights in the wake of the outrages of a Nazi

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government in Europe and the corresponding complicity and apathy of Germany's neighbors both near and abroad. Though the UNDHR , Universal Universal Declaration of Human Rights was not a legally binding document, it was the deployment of a

00:17:26.840 - 00:17:48.150

type of written speech. To establish ethical boundaries internationally . Meant to safeguard against future abuses. It it was not legally binding, but it became a source from which compulsory laws are are derived at international levels

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, various levels. That document exemplifies a belief in the connection between language and behavior. It's also a practice of global relations. So let me jump down here. Problems. Rest in the declaration. At

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a certain area that I'm describing here, what I've described earlier. It's not without controversy. The Declaration of Human Rights. It is what it produced by virtue of omission. We have a moment here internationally

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. Where some troubling has happened. A Nazi version of human has happened in Europe. But that Nazi version of human. Was not an outgrowth, I mean was not something strange as it were. It

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was a part of the ongoing conversation about human life that was already present. When the Declaration was written , most of the continent of Africa and the Caribbean remained colonized by the people who wrote it. And

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that was no mere oversight. They refused the language in the Declaration of Independence of self. Determination. The very language that was present in the Declaration of Independence and the Declaration of the rights of man.

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But in the Declaration of Human Rights. They refused it. It's a disavowal. Why? Because it would have put those signatories out of bounds ethically by their own admission. They highlighted a version of dignity

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for the colonized. That refused their rights to self-governance . Betraying European perceptions of human difference. That separate the colonized from their colonizers. A forced antagonism. Benevolently done. So the European interactions with colonized bodies

00:20:14.400 - 00:20:36.810

, with the what some scholars call the others of Europe. Creates those others as discursive space might say that bodies become indexed, written. With a language of difference. That is recognizable. On site Of

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those bodies. It is a site of what some would describe as biopolitical power, the creation of knowledges of being in the life of being and of life and death. The disavowal was part of a long

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standing custom of European knowledge producing regimes to trap life within practice of production, knowledge production that create new subjects. So, I'm part of what I'm doing here now, if we're, we're in the classroom

00:21:06.830 - 00:21:17.050

, I'm gonna stop right there and say, so how did that land on you? What are you getting so far? Does that make sense? I point to that moment in the in the creation of

00:21:17.050 - 00:21:34.270

the Declaration of the of human rights just to show how even in our benevolent efforts at a better world , that problem reproduces itself. Is Christianity of any use anymore? John asks this morning. Well,

00:21:34.840 - 00:21:52.710

in benevolent efforts at a better world, we are still operating with this early or early iteration of human difference. It is only by virtue of surfacing this problem that we can address some of the things that

00:21:52.710 - 00:22:11.140

remain intractable in society. You're trying to be good , you're trying to help. But without attention to this foundational problem, you just turn the problem into a nice problem. Don't be nice, don't be

00:22:11.140 - 00:22:30.460

mean to the people beneath us. Let's be nice to the people beneath us. They're still beneath us . So that disavowal of self-determination. By the way , self determination is a unique. Attribute Of this

00:22:30.460 - 00:22:41.320

idealized figure from Europe. Now, um let me , let me be also a little bit. I'm gonna dig in a little bit more and say that the way that this knowledge of human difference is just

00:22:41.320 - 00:23:00.710

is created is what some scholars describe as whiteness. Whiteness is not in the way I'm using it. A a an attribute of any demographic of people. Whiteness is a product is a process of knowledge production

00:23:03.950 - 00:23:18.510

. It is how knowledge about being is created. So that in the 18th century when Carl Linnaeus gives coins the phrase Homo sapien in his book Natural Systems , that is ongoing production of whiteness with its 5

00:23:18.510 - 00:23:38.660

different human types. Homo sapiens. Incidentally meaning wise man. The one endowed with logic with reason, who knows the world and describes it, but the description is actually productive. Creating something. Homo sapien

00:23:38.660 - 00:23:56.690

then, or man becomes foundational for our interpretation of the of the work of God. In the world . What has happened? This very language. Of hierarchy, this very language of human difference, centered

00:23:56.690 - 00:24:22.000

on an idealized type who becomes representative of God in the world. Is just an is the ongoing. Argument For hierarchy For clear distinctions. I should, I should say that. This lecture is simply to

00:24:22.000 - 00:24:34.560

name this problem. I'm not gonna give you an answer to it today. What I will do, I'm going to tomorrow um in the second lecture is offer some possibilities. By reference to black arts.

00:24:37.050 - 00:24:55.820

So Jumping down here because I feel like I feel like this is a bit. Theoretical and I really wish I was, we could have some Q&A right now. Um, Considering that the signatories of the

00:24:55.820 - 00:25:14.070

Universal Declaration of Human Rights were trying to accomplish a healthier global standard in their efforts, they reinforced the impact. Of a particular conversation. That creates a European body of knowledge that has become normal normalized globally

00:25:17.720 - 00:25:33.790

. Um, The declaration and its global legibility are indicative of the problems that beset efforts undertaken by many who seek the to make the world a better place . The problems rest in the premise that the knowledge

00:25:33.790 - 00:25:48.970

emerging from Europe about the human is in recognition of a naturally universal and inclusive standard, when it is in fact a hegemonic project. Hegemonic product, let me jump down here because my time is running out

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. Maybe I've stated what I'm wanting to state so far this morning, but I have some more slides . Um Let's just, let's just do it in this way. What is the purpose of the antagonism

00:26:06.660 - 00:26:33.840

? The binary. That antagonism Is not simply a compare and contrast. The antagonism creates. A legible visible picture of the ideal. Like a photo negative . You need The presence Of the other As the

00:26:33.840 - 00:26:53.680

as the knowledge of the ideal, the European man . Begins to make its move across the Atlantic and other parts of the world in 1492. It comes into contact with other bodies. With other people Later

00:26:53.930 - 00:27:14.270

in the in the study of culture. Say for example with Emil Durkheim you get um religion as well which is a part of this contrasting discourse. They are describing others. But in fact it's not description

00:27:14.590 - 00:27:33.640

. It is invention, it is this. And as you know about the negative, the negative is the only way you get to this. That contrast . Under duress, under changing circumstances. So when

00:27:33.640 - 00:27:52.930

you get to. The uh To that that clear picture and we talk about inclusion into this. What does it mean for something or people groups that are identified that are created to be included into this?

00:27:53.350 - 00:28:11.180

It is a way of solidifying. This discourse of reality. Red and yellow, black and white, they're not actually people. What is red? We are on the land of a people who are described

00:28:11.180 - 00:28:26.210

as red, but they didn't know themselves as red . The uh Ashanti, Yoruba, from Iwe, Mina, from Africa, they don't know themselves as as black. In fact, spending time in Africa

00:28:26.210 - 00:28:41.340

and and trying to tell the group of people what black is in Africa. You know, um, they don't know themselves as that. Yellow. Somebody explained that to me. I mean, I know

00:28:41.340 - 00:29:03.200

because I'm born and raised here, but what is yellow? And brown, so many different things under those under these umbrellas. But when you get into the land of the discourse. Those have meaning that

00:29:03.200 - 00:29:21.990

give us a clear picture of reality that needs those distinctions. And in the story that we're told. The presence of Christ as white, I should say the discourse of I mean the the discourse that is

00:29:21.990 - 00:29:38.930

whiteness gives us these distinctions. And white people have a different place within that discourse. Than black people . It is an argument for that, for one might say colonialism, ownership. Um, earlier today

00:29:40.130 - 00:29:56.690

, um, John. I raised a point about Christian nationalism. Within the discourse, one might say Christian nationalism. That sounds great. A nation organized around Christian principles. But after World War 1,

00:29:56.810 - 00:30:07.250

again in the in the um well that was the Declaration of Human Rights that came after World War 2 , but after World War 1. Former empires showed up to the emerging United Nations, the League of

00:30:07.250 - 00:30:30.020

Nations created by um Woodrow Wilson, no longer as empires but as nations. Nation states, the nation . A boundaried territory around which um well that that gives residence to nationalities. So that these distinctive nationalities

00:30:30.020 - 00:30:55.300

have their boundaries. And are represented on the global stage. What is Christian? Nationality. One of the efforts that we do, we make in exposing this is to recalibrate how this is given. How

00:30:55.300 - 00:31:12.580

this nega, how this image of reality is given you by recalibrating this and this. So one might say simply to recalibrate what it means to be human and Christian away from harmful ideals that need. that

00:31:12.580 - 00:31:33.380

need contrast. To recalibrate them. Is to do the work of of uh undoing the problems that keep emerging within society. I've ah I had some more quotes in here but I'll maybe I'll read them and

00:31:33.380 - 00:31:49.280

get past, get to get to some description about them. This is um. Professor Carter, a very dear friend and scholar who was also talking about the human. The property informed understanding of the world

00:31:49.280 - 00:32:07.440

meaning that the earth is property for the human to appropriate to make use of but also those whose bodies are attached to specific locations whereas the human is not attached to any specific location but makes his home in

00:32:07.440 - 00:32:23.400

the creation of culture. He extracts and uses. Property informed understanding of the world is premised on atomistic division and imposed on the earth so as to enclose it. It is the beginning of our problems.

00:32:23.430 - 00:32:37.430

It is the emergence of a paradigm of the human inflected through race, gender as technologies of separation. The rise of the modern state as I was just describing and settler colonial violence against the earth, the

00:32:37.430 - 00:32:54.120

invention of the idea of religious men as bound up with the rise of men, the religious is a part of cultural studies. Cultural studies are the way that human difference is discovered and described. Again,

00:32:54.410 - 00:33:17.140

the discourse. The specific kind of political entity. The citizen. Is the human In a political um set up. So if the if the human. It's known by contrast to the ideal. The citizen

00:33:17.390 - 00:33:40.550

is known by contrast. To the immigrant The one who does not belong. The migrant, the illegal . Again, contrast, antagonism. This earth is our, my earth, and I have proper place

00:33:40.550 - 00:34:01.080

on this earth as citizen. The immigrant does not have this earth, as I have it. Mm . All right. I'll skip that one. Um , this one, the reason why I have,

00:34:01.090 - 00:34:15.540

uh, this in the, in the chapter that I'm working on, it's talking of Horton Spiller is talking about the connection of violence. Um A way of including people in a language of the human.

00:34:16.550 - 00:34:35.260

They have their place in relationship to violence, but I'll I'll, I'll save that one for Q&A if we get there. Um I'll stop here. In Some, some spaces where I talk about this foundational

00:34:35.260 - 00:34:55.490

problem human. I read a poem by Dietrich Bonhofer . How many have heard the poem Who Am I ? Give me a moment because I think I wanna read it here. I should have had this queued

00:34:55.490 - 00:35:35.140

up. OK. Safari can't open the page because it couldn't connect to the server. Come on. Somebody may be able to get it before me. Bonhofer, who am I? You look at that

00:35:35.780 - 00:35:55.300

. Thank you. Let me give you a little background here he's in prison. He's been arrested And he's gone through some pretty awful initial moments in prison before they recognize. That he is the nephew of

00:35:55.300 - 00:36:10.420

Paul von Hays who serves in a role as a a kind of a mayoral role in the city. He's a big deal and we've got him in prison . But he is also on record as being antagonistic

00:36:10.420 - 00:36:32.120

towards our our our government. The government This far right. Single party government, autocratic fascist government. He's on record, OK. So he's seeing lots happen in the prison. Cruelty, petty cruelty,

00:36:32.210 - 00:36:46.380

humiliations. He himself has gone through some of this . But he has a a way of carrying himself . He writes this along with many, uh, a number of other poems. If you haven't read

00:36:46.640 - 00:36:55.580

letters and papers from prison, I recommend it. That's how the world came to know Dietrich, by the way, not from any other book. That's this is how people came to know him. He

00:36:55.580 - 00:37:12.570

writes this. Who am I? They often tell me I would step from my cell's confinement calmly, cheerfully, firmly, like a squire from his country house. Who am I? They often tell me

00:37:12.570 - 00:37:34.890

I would talk to my warders freely and friendly and clearly. As though it were mine to command. Who am I? They also tell me I would bear the days of misfortune. Ely Smilingly Proudly Like

00:37:34.890 - 00:37:51.150

one accustomed to win. Am I then really all that which other men tell of? Or am I only what I know of myself? Restless and longing and sick. Like a bird in a cage,

00:37:51.160 - 00:38:09.070

struggling for breath, as though hands were compressing my throat. Yearning for colors, for flowers, for the voices of birds, thirsting for words of kindness . For neighborliness. Trembling with anger at despotism and

00:38:09.070 - 00:38:31.700

petty humiliation. Tossing an expectation of great events. Powerlessly trembling for friends at an infinite distance. Weary And empty at praying. At thinking At making faint . And ready to say farewell to it all.

00:38:34.800 - 00:38:54.540

Who am I? This or the other. Am I one person today and tomorrow another? Am I both at once a hypocrite before others and before myself a contempobly woebegone weakly? Or is something within me

00:38:54.540 - 00:39:14.890

still like a beaten army, fleeing a disorder from a victory already achieved? Who am I? They mock me. These lonely questions of mine. Whoever I am Thou knowest, O God. I am

00:39:14.890 - 00:39:37.910

thine. Who am I? Tracks along the lines of what? Am I? We're going to begin a. Uh, a response to the question of how we got here. We'll need to ask this

00:39:37.910 - 00:40:05.140

question, who are we? It's neighboring question what ? Am I? Am I what the story about human difference tells me I am? Or are we something different? Is there an otherwise? To the

00:40:05.140 - 00:40:17.600

to the description of human that needs this contrast to know each other, know itself. I said that this this project is an outgrowth of the first book . Dietrich comes into Harlem. And he encounters a

00:40:17.600 - 00:40:38.220

global movement. That is troubling the the the way human is understood. That's what this is. This is a painting by Aaron Douglas, one of the most prominent artists of the Harlem Renaissance. He painted

00:40:38.220 - 00:41:02.590

this for James Weldon Johnson's collection of sermons called God's Trombones. And God's trombones, this this is along with the sermon on the crucifixion. Where is Jesus ? Now that I've asked you that you thought you

00:41:02.590 - 00:41:22.580

knew where he was. Where is Jesus in the painting? Right here, right? This is Jesus , the one with the halo. Then who is this figure? What's that? Someone said, Simon

00:41:24.610 - 00:41:39.140

, I grew up knowing this tradition. That's Black Simon. Simon from Cyrene, Cyrene, North Africa , Africa, black people. And as the tradition goes, when black people when his black body touched

00:41:39.140 - 00:41:59.000

that cross, black people picked up the suffering. Of Christ What does it mean then for people who are. Practitioners. Of that kind of cruelty that is historical. In the west as it relates to

00:41:59.000 - 00:42:10.720

black people. Blackness is not a quality in my description of it either of any demographic of people. It is an otherwise mode of existence. Something outside of the story that we know so well told by

00:42:10.720 - 00:42:32.680

whiteness. And this is an otherwise description of our engagement with each other in Christ. Think inside of this painting, the question, who am I? This figure here. Who knew himself, this is

00:42:32.680 - 00:42:52.450

a this is a uh a soldier, knows himself to be right. In the punishment of this figure . Which can include this, which of course will include this figure. There is an Interconnectedness between Christ

00:42:52.450 - 00:43:13.090

and the others around, but these people who with political authority and power and control over the way political life is arranged inevitably are harming this figure here and this figure. Who am I? the I,

00:43:13.200 - 00:43:24.690

I'm, uh, I need, I'm over time right now but I'll say this and uh um. In chapter one, Of that Bonhoeffer book, I include the song Were you there? The song were

00:43:24.690 - 00:43:37.420

you there when they crucified my Lord? The song implies that we were there, we were all of us there. What role did you play? Who are you? The human reproduces these antagonisms that are

00:43:37.420 - 00:44:05.160

part and parcel of practices of oppression. In order to emphasize the superiority of the ideal one. We must surface this problem if we're going to address it . Thank you. Thank you, Doctor Williams immensely

00:44:05.160 - 00:44:13.950

for a wonderful lecture. Uh, we've already got questions that have come in. I wanna dive right in for the sake of time. Uh, Janice says, uh, what are the progressive steps involved

00:44:13.950 - 00:44:28.240

when persons proceed to dismantle the humanity of others of perceived inferiority? I'll say it again. What are the perceived, excuse me, what are the progressive steps involved when persons proceed to dismantle the humanity of

00:44:28.240 - 00:44:43.100

others of perceived inferiority? So, um, thank you for that question. I'm guessing on mine, yeah, thank you for that. I forgot to acknowledge you all online in the overflow. The the

00:44:43.100 - 00:45:02.070

real. The impact of this understanding of human is that. Their humanity is not dismantled their humanity. Is not present. It is not a given that they're human. That this story has created around it

00:45:02.070 - 00:45:23.620

what what I described as a relational structure. You will wonder why. Some suffering. Does not rise to the level of moral concern. It just doesn't . While some suffering gets our attention immediately. Who

00:45:24.200 - 00:45:45.190

are those people? I mean they have it in the in the in the legal system. Your sentence will depend upon the demographic of your victim. And of the offender. This is the relational structure.

00:45:45.680 - 00:46:01.720

People who reside on the boundaries of that structure. Historically black people. What Zaka Jackson describes as the animal in human form, according to this discourse. Have uh uh those have a very different response than

00:46:01.720 - 00:46:21.390

those who are aesthetically um. Closer to the ideal , to the human. So it's not that they're dismantled. It's how do you even recognize that as human. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. Uh

00:46:21.530 - 00:46:32.070

, another question, um, Ryan asks, what generated Bonhopper's embrace of the critique of his epistemic, uh, epistemic, excuse me, whiteness. Uh , what generated Bon Hopper's embrace of the critique of

00:46:32.070 - 00:46:49.020

his epistemic whiteness? Um, OK, let the cat out of the bag a little bit. He may not have completely gotten there. OK, to to epistemic whiteness, meaning the um epistemology as you

00:46:49.020 - 00:47:00.890

may know, is the study of knowledge acquisition and and justified belief. So to have known himself as white, one might say that he clearly was in opposition to the Aryan, as was his family.

00:47:01.070 - 00:47:19.780

The Aryan is a version of white. Aryan is the top of white races, but it's white. And there are other whites. He didn't like that . But did he get to the place of We

00:47:19.780 - 00:47:29.740

need to stop talking about white and black and brown and so forth. I don't, he didn't get there. He didn't get there from my students in this current course on Bonhofer that I'm teaching, they're

00:47:29.740 - 00:47:47.140

getting they're they're coming to realize that. But he didn't like harmful hierarchy. That version of white. Is what he was in opposition to. He saw that one might say that the um that the philosophical

00:47:47.140 - 00:48:07.610

and even the theological descriptions of white people come after the history of practices in Europe. Domination and discovery . That the description that we know. Without even thinking about it, is the is the classical or

00:48:07.610 - 00:48:19.680

academic arrangement. That makes that all make sense. They didn't go into Europe because of racism. I mean they didn't go to Africa because of racism. They go in, they went into Africa because it

00:48:19.680 - 00:48:35.020

was lucrative. And the and the logic that came afterwards was to make sense of that practice. That's what we have today without even questioning. Sir, thank you. Uh, what role can black theology

00:48:35.020 - 00:48:52.710

play in unsettling this coloniality of being today in theoretical and practical terms? You got a good question. What role can Blacktail you play? That's a good question. What did the folks worshiping in hidden spaces

00:48:52.020 - 00:49:06.650

in the And to build himself, who had to sneak away to pray. What did they know about God that was different than the people who were running the plantation? And is that knowledge and experience of

00:49:06.650 - 00:49:25.880

God a legitimate expression? Of who God is. When baby sucks holy and. Um Beloved Toni Morris's beloved says here we're flesh, love your flesh. yonda they beat you beat your flesh, they eat

00:49:25.880 - 00:49:43.840

your flesh and so forth. Here love your flesh . What is this recognition of the the value of infleshment of your body? What does that tell us about knowledge of God? What, what, I'm

00:49:43.840 - 00:49:59.560

gonna leave that as questions. OK. Uh Your friend and my boss is the academic dean here at Austin Seminary, so I didn't even mention. I'm so sorry I didn't even mention oh I feel so

00:49:59.560 - 00:50:13.260

ashamed right now. I, I was just priming the pump. This question is, what are your thoughts about black women in spaces traditionally designed for white men, i.e. ordained Presbyterian pastors or academy professors doing

00:50:13.260 - 00:50:30.460

this work? Oh. Yeah, yeah, yeah , yeah. Yeah, that's right. So let's shake it up in a way that needs to be shook up. Completely You see clearly the work or

00:50:30.460 - 00:50:49.050

the role of this idealized or this this this discourse on human, especially in in in statements like that in the recognition of that. One of my favorite theologians. A scholar named Ian Copeland. Um,

00:50:49.090 - 00:51:01.290

back some time ago wrote a book called In Fleshing Freedom. This is a book on this is, this is a black theological ethics text in which she makes this claim. We aren't gonna move past these

00:51:01.290 - 00:51:16.320

intractable problems in society until we recognize how human being is reproduced by the negative coming out of a black woman's womb. The law that the status of the child follows the status of the mother sees her as

00:51:16.320 - 00:51:39.040

creating non-human. Comes out of her She is the focal point. Of this other of Europe. Her body creates that. And in a sacred in a world where we talk about theology, God, and

00:51:39.040 - 00:51:58.210

these people who are supposed to be in leadership, meaning the Homo sapien, the wise man. That these, they are naturally suited to leadership and representative of God on earth. How in the world could

00:51:58.210 - 00:52:14.680

you see a black woman in leadership? She is the conduit of the of the animal and human form . Not the wise man. You see the contrast there? That the wise man is known directly in

00:52:14.680 - 00:52:35.520

contrast to the black woman. That that is the antagonism. We cannot get past the problems that we have that are killing the very planet itself. Until we undo that. That hatred of black women.

00:52:36.210 - 00:52:47.790

In particular, is an age old one in the creation of this discourse of the Homo sapien of the of the human and until we uh we get that straight, there is really no hope. And it

00:52:47.800 - 00:53:00.240

it it didn't and black men talking about race doesn't get us there. They don't, that doesn't get us there alone. It's it's as though we say we don't like the racial problem in that discourse,

00:53:00.280 - 00:53:09.640

but we're OK with the patriarchy and misogyny and so forth and the classes and so forth. We're OK , we're OK with that kind of stuff. I still wanna be the ideal, you know, I

00:53:09.640 - 00:53:30.430

can get down with that, but don't talk to me about women. Until you are capable of making that. Move we won't get past it. Sexual politics, the same thing. So anyway, right

00:53:31.060 - 00:53:45.940

. All right. Yes. Yes, um, Uh, you mentioned, uh, my brain, yes, and amen. OK. You you mentioned describing blackness to Africans. How would you describe Christian

00:53:45.940 - 00:53:58.480

nationalism to people who would not self-describe that way? Who would not self-describe them way, correct, uh , nationalist, uh, correct. If we're talking about blackness to African peoples, our sisters and brothers

00:53:58.480 - 00:54:12.950

from the African continent, they don't identify as black , how would you describe Christian nationalism to them? The gospel To a people who so describing black to an African. Nope, sorry. I was excited

00:54:12.950 - 00:54:22.180

from your previous comments. Let me say it again . So in the concept of Christian nationalism, how do you explain Christian nationalism to Africans who do not identify as black when they come into the United States

00:54:23.810 - 00:54:42.490

? OK, we do like multiple moves here. Describing Christian nationalism to the African who comes here doesn't understand both black and Christian nationalism. OK. Um , you know, interestingly though, the some of

00:54:42.490 - 00:54:53.690

the stuff around Christian nationalism speaks, um, in an international language, so they may still like the idea of a Christian nationalism because they think a nation run on the principles of Christ. Of course we

00:54:53.690 - 00:55:07.100

want that that'll bring all sorts of things including prosperity . You know, interestingly, when I, when I take students to Ghana and we, we see shops with like Christian themes on them like the um

00:55:07.100 - 00:55:22.640

bless the Lord hair shop, you know, or um this this um shop for any given thing with this kind of you know um blood of Jesus, you know, shoe repair or whatever it is.

00:55:22.390 - 00:55:46.270

Um, it is a language that they'll get from the West about capitalism and Christianity. That if you accept Jesus. You'll be Jesus will heal the poverty of the land. When in fact you're missing some

00:55:46.270 - 00:56:09.330

important historical practices of. Extraction And um. The language what the word I'm I'm looking for is um . Exploitation. Theft Europe That has engaged in a process of colonialism what um Laman San has said when

00:56:09.330 - 00:56:20.420

we, when the when the missionary came, they , we had the land, they had the Bible , we prayed and then when we lifted our heads , they had the land and we had the Bible

00:56:22.500 - 00:56:37.200

. That's the missionary practice in Africa. You're missing all of that with your, um, you know , blood of Jesus shoe shop. Um, that They need to be removed, extracted, as it

00:56:37.200 - 00:56:55.730

were, taken out of this narrative, this connection between um the blood of Jesus. And individual financial wealth. That becomes a national argument as well. In the practice of idealized human. So, um

00:56:58.410 - 00:57:17.290

, What is the gospel if it's not a an individual. Self-help message. I mean that's not answering the question completely. I haven't had that experience, so I might say that when you come into this

00:57:17.290 - 00:57:37.490

space some of that language of Christian nationalism will sound familiar to you from the ideas of individualism and wealth production. Um, but as a people. In a political arrangement. The language of the gospel is

00:57:37.490 - 00:57:53.940

actually very different than what you've been told. And it'll make sense because you're in a western conversation about Jesus, wealth and individualism. But as I'll say tomorrow, what if What if in Christ. It's

00:57:53.940 - 00:58:17.010

not about individual. Realization, self-realization. But about a collective already connected sense of love your neighbor as yourself of our well-being. How does that describe, I mean boundaryless collective well-being. How do you make

00:58:17.010 - 00:58:28.820

sense of that? As you're trying to make your wealth and see yourself as holy individual. Let's give