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Everyone. We are glad that you are joining us today. We're thankful that you're here and joining us for cultivating ideas. This is our webinar series where our faculty share ideas and insights that they have been

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cultivating and teaching, writing and in ministry. And so we're grateful that you've taken time today to join us. Um Today, Doctor Greenway, Doctor Bill Greenway will be joining us to present on the topic

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of the passion of Torah is the passion of Jesus is the pass of Lint. And so he'll be presenting uh based off of his new book in the light of agape moral realism and in its consequences interprets

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lint in the light of agape, unveiling the singular reality, which is the passion of Tora, the passion of Jesus and the passion of lint. As always, you all are welcome to, to let

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us know where you're joining from. We'd love to hear in the chat where you're, you're joining from across the country and maybe even internationally um to be here with us with Doctor Greenway today. Um Please

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let us know that in the chat and I'll remind you, stay muted before uh while we're doing the presentation. And then after the presentation, you are welcome to come off and ask questions and, and

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Bill has been very specific that we want to get to the presentation. So we have time for conversation afterwards. So with that said, I will indeed turn it over to Bill and I invite you to

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, to welcome Bill at, however, you see fit via waving of hands or reaction, whatever it may be. So it's good to see everyone here . I'm excited about this. I've been enjoying these

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sessions as you as many of, you know, uh throughout the year myself. Uh For those of you who are wondering and notice the box down there that says Sylvia Greenway, that is indeed my mother

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. So don't say anything too harsh afterwards. Um And uh so, um all my work is part of a single argument which is trying to work within the bounds of what is generally considered to be reasonable

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. Um And good. Um And, and, and, and arguing for philosophical theology, philosophical spirituality on those basis. Uh one that is in intensely but not exclusively uh Christian. And I think uh

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just on with that said, we'll move to the presentation. I taped it so that I would be efficient and not as some of, you know, go off on the tangents. Uh And then we

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would have a good time for uh discussion. I see you grinning there, Brenda. It's a good thing that final project is already in. So. All right, with that said, Phil, I'll

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turn it back over to you and I will mute myself. The passion of Torah is the passion of Jesus, is the passion of wind. A philosophical meditation upon Deuteronomy 26 1 to 13. I am

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William Greenway, professor of Philosophical Theology at Austin Presbyterian Theological Seminary. And this is a chapter from my new book in the light of agape, moral Realism and Its consequences. A collection of philosophical essays defending

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and reflecting upon the reality signified by agape or I would argue by signifiers like has said in Judaism, Ren in Confucianism or meta in Buddhism. In this reflection, I argue that there is profound spiritual and

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ethical continuity between not only Judaism and Christianity, but also among Buddhism, Hinduism, secular humanism, Islam and other faith traditions. I begin with a reading of the text when you have come into the land

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that the Lord, your God is giving you as an inheritance to possess and you possess it and settle in it. You shall take some of the first of all the fruit of the ground which you harvest

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from the land that the Lord your God is giving you and you shall put it in a basket and go to the place that the Lord your God will choose as a dwelling for his name. You shall

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go to the priest who is in office at that time and say to him to day. I declare to the Lord your God that I have come into the land that the Lord swore to our ancestors to

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give us. When the priest takes the basket from your hand and sets it down before the altar of the Lord, your God, you shall make this response before the Lord, your God. A wandering

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Arama was my ancestor. He went down into Egypt and lived there as an alien few in number. And there he became a great nation, mighty and populous. When the Egyptians treated us harshly and afflicted

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us by imposing hard labor on us. We cried to the Lord, the God of our ancestors. The Lord heard our voice and saw our affliction, our toil and our oppression. The Lord brought us

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out of Egypt with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm with a terrifying display of power and with signs and wonders. And he brought us into this place and gave us this land a land flowing with milk

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and honey. So now I bring the first of the fruit of the ground that you o Lord have given me. You shall set it down before the Lord, your God and bow down before the Lord

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, your God. Then you together with the Levites and the aliens who reside among you shall celebrate with all the bounty that the Lord your God has given to you and to your house. When you have

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finished paying all the tithe of your produce in the third year, which is the year of the tithe giving it to the levites, the aliens, the orphans and the widows so that they may eat their

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fill within your towns. Then you shall say before the Lord, your God, I have removed the sacred portion from the house and I have given it to the levites, the resident aliens, the orphans

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and the widows in accordance with your entire commandment that you commanded me. I have neither transgressed nor forgotten any of your commandments. Emmanuel Levinas, the celebrated 20th century philosopher grew up as a Russian Jew in

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Kaunas, Lithuania just north of Belarus and Ukraine as a boy, he was forced to flee with his Jewish community. When the Russian revolution swept through Lithuania as an adult French citizen and army officer. He

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spent five years as a captive of the Nazis and his entire immediate family. Having returned to Kano was murdered when the Nazis swept through Lithuania on their march into Russia. Leo often cited a line from the

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Christian philosopher Blaise Pascal. That is my place in the Sun. That is how the usurpation of the whole world began. With that line, pascal anticipates how ethics grounded in appeals to rights would not only

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be insufficient for ethics but would be appropriated to justify political and economic imperialism. The well known First fruits passage of the Torah Deuteronomy 26 1 through 12 strives to counter a similar imperialistic interpretation of the promised land

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motif among the Israelites by the time this text is written, the Israelite conquest of Canon is done. There is no undoing that no place for the Israelites to go. The question is what will be the

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character of Israelite rule? The author reminds them of their treatment in Egypt where it was the Israelites themselves who had been identified as the aliens. Are they going to rule like the Egyptians? The author reminds

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them that they were poor and isolated immigrants, that their father was a wandering Arab man. How are they going to treat immigrants? We know from the history of ancient Israel that the promised land motif was

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used to justify political and economic imperialism. This is what Jewish prophets called forgetting God, which in concrete terms means forgetting the poor, the alien, the widow and the orphan, forgetting that God promised to

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bless the Children of Abram, a blessing applicable to all Children of Abram so that Abram and His Children could be a blessing to all the families of the earth. Our author not only proclaims in this passage

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, what it is to remember God, but in beds, the community is remembering in an annual ritual of first fruits. In this ritual, one takes not the excess, not what remains after. We're

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sure there's enough for us but first fruits of the harvest. Moreover, because this is not just about a once a year exception, but about marking out a way of living in community. The people are

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told to take and share not only first fruits but 1/10 of all that is harvested every third year. They are to remember God by sharing all this with the aliens in the land. Note that in the

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context of Deuteronomy, most of the aliens are descendants of people who lived in Canaan before the Israelite conquest . One remembers God by sharing the first fruits and the tithe so that the alien, the fatherless and

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the widow may eat in your towns and be satisfied . That is what it is to remember God. Let's pause to be sure about the reason our author is saying this. It's because they love the aliens

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, the widows, the orphans and the immigrants, they cannot make people love each other. But they can remind the people of times when they themselves were needy, when they were seen as strangers in the

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land and of what they thought of those who welcomed and aided them. And they can say, remember God go and do likewise. But is this first fruits? Philosophy realistic? Indeed, don't we know

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that it is patently unrealistic. Why not assert my rights? Why not establish means and security for me and mine first, I mean, let's be real . Haven't modern philosophy and science established that that is

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how the world really works. That the state of nature is primordially a war of all against all moral idealists like our biblical author are naive and dangerous because in the Real World, it's a struggle for survival

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and those who do not know how to play the game get eaten alive. So go with the flow form strategic alliances, do long term assessments and work to align others interests with your own, especially if

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they are powerful ideals are great if you can afford to have them. But a first fruits philosophy is insane because in the Real world, people who refuse to compromise, refuse to accept reality and play the

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game, people who get stuck on their moral ideals who do not play by the rules of real politique in the real world. And and this is actually true. I'm not setting this up to undo it

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later. This is true in the real world, people like this get crucified. It is this hard truth that binds the Torah's first fruits passage to the crucifixion of Jesus and Lin. This connection is obscured

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by an understandable but massive confusion over how to understand jesus' crucifixion. And lint. A confusion most obvious in tit for tat understandings of the cross, for instance, in the penal substitution, understanding of atonement

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, penal substitution theory claims that on the cross, Jesus paid the penalty for sin in our place. I say this confusion is understandable because not just among Christians but in religions around the world, one finds

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a primordial conviction that the only hope of making up for evil is if in a tit for tat exchange , some equally great evil is done in return accordingly . One finds sacrificial rituals in religious traditions across the

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world where one does harm to oneself or to another creature to make up for some other evil. Tragically , this just increases harm in the world and compounds the offense. This point about the confusion of substitution

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, understandings of the cross deserves more careful and compassionate discussion than I commit can commit to here. But let me stress that even people who articulate such theories of atonement have in so far as they have indeed

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found forgiveness, they have found forgiveness in divine grace , which substitution atonement theories, misunderstand womanist theologians like Dolores Williams and Joanne Marie Terrell have been particularly important in awakening us to the problematic ways in which substitution

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understandings of atonement, sanctify and even glorify suffering itself , suffering for the sake of suffering. They have awakened us to the way in which substitution tit for tat understandings lead us confusedly to think that somehow perpetuating

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new evil, the infliction of pain or killing will undo past evil. Such understandings of atonement lead Christians to see God is somehow pleased or satisfied with Jesus's suffering and death on the cross, please with the

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suffering and death itself. This is manifest when people are asked, what does the passion of passion week and the passion of the passion of Jesus refer to and they answer the cross, the suffering and death

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of Jesus on the cross. There are two confusions here. It is especially vital for us to name and correct. First, there is nothing inherently good about suffering pain and unjust death, nothing good about

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the suffering pain and unjust death of Jesus. Second , the God who is love did not delight in the suffering pain and unjust death of Jesus and does not delight in the suffering pain, an unjust death

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of any one else. But then precisely what is the passion of Passion Week. The passion of Passion Week is the passion of Jesus. The passion of agape of agape incarnate, the passion of agape so

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perfectly incarnate in Jesus that Jesus remained true to this passion to agape for every face to the death, even death on a cross. It is vital to realize that the cross was a horrifying form of execution

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used by Imperial Rome to terrorize, subjugated populations into submission. As theologian Merit Trost notes in four BCE , the Romans simultaneously crucified 2000 Jews suspected of rebellion . Mass crucifixions of Jews continued through and beyond Jesus's

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time, numbering into the tens of thousands. The civil and ecclesia authorities did not execute Jesus so that humanity's sins might be forgiven to appease God or as some sort of bloody payment in a tit for tat

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economy, Jesus was executed because he lived, surrender to having been seized by love for all the faces that surrounded him. And so he spoke clearly and forthrightly about that which was loving and good and against

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what was unloving and evil. Jesus thereby threatened powerful figures and systems of exploitation and oppression and as precisely as one would expect in a fallen selfish and violent world, those figures and systems responded to the threat

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by crucifying him. Jesus did not falter. The triumph manifest in the cross is the triumph of surrender to the passion of having been seized by love even in the face of massive imperial power and the threat

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of imminent torture and death. It is the triumph of faith of fidelity to agape, fidelity to the God who is a love over desire for personal well being and survival in Jesus fidelity to having been seized

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by love for every face that surrounded him even unto death on a cross. We see in the words of Emmanuel Ana, a man who in the passion of agape was led to fear injustice more than death

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to prefer to suffer than to commit injustice and to prefer that which justifies being over that which assures it . God did not delight in the suffering and murder of Jesus. God delighted in Jesus's fidelity to love

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for all faces, fidelity to the passion of gape , fidelity to the love of neighbor, which is the love of God even unto a cross. The idea that lent or passion, we are about the

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suffering and death of Jesus in and of themselves. Tames lent domesticates it by neutralizing its social critique. Christians can think of this in very practical terms. If you give something up for lent, that is

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not directly tied to justice for some neighbor. If giving up something simply creates suffering. If it is not about living, surrender to having been seized by agape for some other face, then you have missed

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out on the joy and truth of participating in the passion of Jesus Christ. There is a debate in New Testament studies over how to translate pistols or faith in relation to Jesus Christ are Christians called to have

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faith in Jesus Christ or to have the faith of Jesus Christ. That's the debate. But these are false alternatives for to have faith in Jesus Christ is to have the faith of Jesus Christ is to share

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in the passion of Jesus Christ. That is the passion Christians like me should remember and recommit ourselves to when we break the bread and drink the cup. That is the passion of Lent, the passion of

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Passion week, the passion of Jesus, the passion for justice, the passion for neighbor, the passion of sheep who clothe the feet naked, feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty care for the

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sick visit. Those imprisoned, the passion of good Samaritans, the passion of kenosis of incarnation of Christmas , the passion of Isaiah and Amos and Micah. The passion of boat foot of Siddhartha of Gandhi,

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of LA and o the passion behind the five pillars of his long, the passion which experiences this veil of tears as Duca a burning and it is the passion of the First Fruits. Philosophy of the Torah

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. It is also a passion systemically alighted from the categories of modern rationality and absent from the rooms where it happens across the globe to devastating effect. Just for starters, everyone with this passion would have joined

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with South African Anglican archbishop Bishop Thabo MAOA back in 2021 when he accused the US and EU of COVID vaccine vaccine, Apartheid, COVID-19 vaccine Apartheid for their long-standing denial of patent waivers and threats to punish any

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countries who infringed upon patents for COVID vaccines. A first fruits philosophy would have insisted upon patent waivers and would have would have us asked not just about first fruits but about 3rd and 4th fruits, whether or

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not it was moral for we in the United States to get 2nd and 3rd doses of COVID vaccine. While US foreign policy was by design denying vaccine to millions of poor people across the globe. And this

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is just for starters. All of this is connected to what has happened in Hong Kong in Ukraine, in the northern triangle, to the plight of refugees at the US Mexico border, to the withering of

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the Arab Spring to the school to prison pipeline and on and on for a brilliant assessment of the problematic geopolitical dynamics and also for realistic suggestions for redress. See Pope Francis's encyclical, Lodato Sea. Let me

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close with some thoughts about how Christians might celebrate Ash Wednesday and Lint thoughts which connect lint to the Torah's first roots philosophy. First, consistent with Deuteronomy 20 six's emphasis upon the alien and the impoverished. It

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seems Lenten celebrations should attempt to include or at least explicitly to name and remember those who are alien to their communities, people from other faith traditions, other ethnicities, races or socio-economic classes, especially those who

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are poor lead should not be a most exclusive season , a season just for Christians, but a most inclusive season, a season for those from any tradition who surrender to the passion of Lent. Second,

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consistent with the Torah's first fruits, philosophy, especially as it is realized in the passion of Jesus who spoke love to power even under the cross, both individually and communally giving up something for Lent should involve

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naming and committing time, social and political capital and money to redressing some injustice, some violation of the poor or those considered alien. If you are poor or perilous, this might mean embodying the passion of

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Jesus by offering a word of encouragement or a gesture of love. What distinguishes simple self deprivation from true len sacrifice, from participation in the faith of Jesus Christ, participation in the passion of Jesus Christ.

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Is this true l and sacrifice is self deprivation or risk which is directly related in word or deed to the love of God, which is love of neighbor to the passion of lint. For the most privileged

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of us, this should probably involve speaking love to power. Two closing thoughts. First. All this means that the Lenten season is continuous with the advent and Christmas seasons. Those who give up something for

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the sake of giving something up during Lent. Miss out on the joy of giving something up, out of love for others and giving rooted in surrender to the gracious love of God. Miss out on a

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way of participating in the love of God. When one's giving is rooted and surrendered to agape, it feels like a blessed opportunity, not like giving something up. So l is simultaneously a joyous season of

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giving like advent and Christmas and with its termination in the cross, ultra realistic about the character of this world. But this world does not triumph. Surrender to having been seized by agape for every face.

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Surrender to the passion of lent, the passion of Jesus brings profound joy in this world. Despite its crosses and yields resilience. We are not ignorant of the reality and power of real world, social,

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economic and political dynamics, but we neither see them as true to the ultimate character of reality nor do we surrender to them. Second full surrender in true len celebration yields palpable, palpable communion with a Gabe

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which enfolds us and holds us and lifts us up communion in the passion of lent communion. In our shared surrender to Agape is so powerful and glorious that it instills in us reasonable hope that somehow it is

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not this world but agape that has the ultimate word . In other words, it is from true participation in the passion of Lent. That Easter hope is born. We Christians are mistaken if we endure Lent

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so we can get Easter. If someone does something for the sake of some heavenly reward, then ultimately , they are doing it for the reward, for themselves, not out of living. Surrender to agape

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. It is true celebration of lint that is full , surrender to the passion of lint, to the passion of Jesus, to the passion of the prophets , to the passion of the boats and Sidarta and

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the prophet Muhammad peace be upon him. It is full, surrender to passion for all creatures of every kind, especially those who are needy, suffering or in pain. It is full. Surrender to that

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passion to Agape has said meta that gives birth to Easter hope to hope in heaven, Nirvana or the pure land to the hope that in some unimaginable way , Agape is the ultimate word for each one of

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us. Get this backwards ground, everything in the promise of some heavenly reward and one will miss the joy of communion with the God who is gracious. All right. Oh, there we go. If

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you felt, I wondered if you could end it there or let it play to the end. But people go, if people go to the youtube channel and uh all you have to do is go to

00:30:41.140 - 00:30:57.990

youtube and search under William Greenway uh passion, Jesus Lent and you'll find the video uh if there's an Easter egg at the end. Indeed after the blackout . Mm Well, first bill, any follow up

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thoughts that you want to share before we open the questions? Uh Well, there's a lot in there but what unifies it is a conviction that what I call um what I signify with agape, which is

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the, the experience of having been seized by love by concern uh for every face that is to use Levin House's words, how God comes to mind. Uh This is hardly a radical or new thought.

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It's what it means to say God is love is , it's as it's actually concretely experienced. Um and uh to see that and notice that at the heart um of these various religious traditions um at the heart

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of, of, of the Torah. And that's that this is love analysis, reading of the Torah . Uh But also at the heart of what it means to uh think of the passion of Jesus,

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the passion of Lent and then as I gesture um across these religious traditions. And so, um that's , that's what that's the unifying theme with the unifying um kind of primordial confession which anchors all the other

00:32:04.380 - 00:32:14.710

um reflections um and unifies, I guess I'll start with that and go to uh questions. All right . I need to look at the chat maybe. Yeah, Mark. Do you want to ask you

00:32:14.720 - 00:32:32.040

a question when asking bill a question. I have to word it very carefully. So I, I'll stick to my text so I'll read it. Uh , Mark asks, uh, uh, in your

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language, you seem to push beyond surrender to agape . Um That moves toward a fullness of the spiritual life when that living surrender becomes our joy. Um In other words, to quote, the bach is

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that Corral Corral Corral, um uh uh Jesus Joy of our desiring, Uh Does the passion of land and Torah contain arrows? Not just surrender but response . A desiring that finds its ultimate joy um in

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agape. So, so, so Lebanon can be read very negatively. It, so it sounds to me like there's more to the full experience of love than strict. Levin. Os Levin is living in

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a time when there's a debate over art for the sake of art. Um And then there's people like Orwell uh who are countering that with saying no art needs to be for the sake of what's good and

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loving and just um and, and love and o is overwhelmingly concerned with the uh show and, and so his concerns are overwhelmingly ethical. Um as a result, I actually, I would agree with those

00:33:37.740 - 00:33:46.960

who think short changes the aesthetic. Um There is a place for art being for the sake of art just for joy. Um And, and, and , and, and, and there's a place for

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eros. Um but, but there are many people who, then it's it's always surprising me how eager people are needing to get eros back into play. Um And that's why I want to insist that,

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you know, eros is distinct from agape. Um uh It's phenomenological distinct. Um It's, it's a , it's the use of the word desire there I think is tricky uh because the way eros is,

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is understood and, and this is what makes, I think this is what makes it popular among academics to put agape within eros and it moved right to eros is eros works within modern uh uh categories,

00:34:25.590 - 00:34:39.630

a modern philosophical categories. So, uh but there you lose what's distinctively religious um or ethical. Um And for modern thought, um ethics becomes a species of the aesthetic uh because there's no place for that

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other reality. Um And, and, and I think people who it, I don't think it's, it's in a sense, a fundamentally religious impulse. So by oil, uh what uh Wilson describes,

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I think this is uh this is a desire I have for other things for myself. Whereas for me adopt is uh having been seized by a love and the surrender there is not um for me, an

00:35:04.580 - 00:35:17.050

abstraction, the surrender is not just a kind of AAA spiritual stance that you do in your head. Uh The surrender is feeding is clothing is, you know, so, so to live, surrender to

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Agape is to live action in the world. Um always concrete action. So to separate it from um not just surrender but response, I don't separate those two. The surrender is in the response. That's

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a sense in which, you know, the sheep are surprised they didn't know they were serving God. You know, that's the sense in which God is hidden. Uh That's the sense in which if you

00:35:39.340 - 00:35:52.010

do it for God, the neighbor is actually dis be uh what the sheep do is they do it in direct surrender to agape for those faces and in doing it for them is the parable says you've done

00:35:52.020 - 00:36:04.320

it for me. So, paradoxically enough, the sheep have to be surprised because if they did it for God, they wouldn't be sheep, they would be goats who actually didn't see and respond to the

00:36:04.330 - 00:36:16.020

neighbor. So that's, that's for me where agape is. So I'm all for affirming eros. Uh But I think it's a distinctive category and it can be good if it doesn't violate agape. Um And

00:36:16.030 - 00:36:30.300

, and, and, and ideal romantic relationships. We got both the fullness of agape and a fullness of um eros in some relationships uh which are uh exploitative or abusive, abusive or coercive. What you've

00:36:30.310 - 00:36:47.740

got is eros without agape. Um And at that point, they become uh problematic. Um So I think that's the best way um to do that, this question, I find significant because I commonly get

00:36:47.750 - 00:37:00.370

this count from people who want to collapse what they're doing into the aesthetic. Um And uh and there's a background history of an opposition there between agape and arrows, which I'm trying to step beyond that.

00:37:00.380 - 00:37:13.670

It's not an either or arrows is not bad. It, it's good unless it violates agape, but they're distinctive and I'm stopping, I'm gonna try and stop within three minutes on every question. Those,

00:37:14.140 - 00:37:24.980

well, no, that's a massive undertaking on my part. Uh, so can I follow up? Yes. Uh, this is kind of unrelated to the question. I don't find that book on Amazon

00:37:24.990 - 00:37:34.460

. Is it published yet? No, it's coming out. It's, it's coming out in, um maybe June. OK. And, and by the way, this essay, you know, some people

00:37:34.470 - 00:37:44.050

, this, this essay reads a little differently in our immediate context given everything that's going on in the Middle East. But this was completed a year ago , uh just to make that uh clear too.

00:37:44.060 - 00:37:52.740

Um And then this, um this, this essay is on youtube if people wanted to, um, you know, my idea is, is to, is to turn this into, there's another chapter two

00:37:52.750 - 00:38:05.050

on um um the Flower of faith blooming in the light of agape, which is about this interfaith sort of uh um commonality, which I'm also going to be putting out as a youtube video, which is

00:38:05.060 - 00:38:14.260

also a chapter in the book. And my, my hope is these things can then be used independently . You know, if the pastor wanted to use it as a, a conversation started for their congregation

00:38:14.420 - 00:38:21.960

or if any of you wanted to do it with your folks and then asked me to come in just not to watch it together like this, but just to have a hour of conversation. Uh that would

00:38:21.970 - 00:38:47.230

be great um As well, very generous of you to make it available and to be such a resource . Others have questions for, for Doctor Greener today , we have lots of time left. It,

00:38:47.240 - 00:38:57.570

it was hard to not build, think of what's happening in the Middle East as you were speaking and not, not bring that into the forefront of my mind as you were, were going. And,

00:38:58.390 - 00:39:12.350

um, I do have a question on that, but we're gonna wait, I'm gonna wait, I'm gonna hold my question and I wanna make sure everybody else has a chance to ask theirs first. Libby's

00:39:12.360 - 00:39:35.880

logging off her class. I guess that's acceptable. You say that the reality of the world is true and not going to change. Um, I think part of what, hm, as best drive some

00:39:35.890 - 00:39:52.380

of those rooms that you refer to where decisions are made is the concept of, um, the greater good, the good for more people than not people . Um And of course, as you would say

00:39:52.390 - 00:40:14.180

that lets everybody slide from your concept got paid. But, uh, wonder what you think about that rationale that when you have to make the decision in some of those rooms, not all of them that

00:40:14.210 - 00:40:30.240

you're charged with making the decision for what is good for most people under the circumstances. Uh, yeah . And, and that's where, um, the absent from rooms where it happens might be a little

00:40:30.250 - 00:40:39.470

much of an, a bit of an overstatement. Although it's not clear to me it's a complete overstatement , I think in, in, in many rooms where it happens and, and many, um,

00:40:40.470 - 00:40:52.170

now I think especially, uh, often of, of, of, of, of folks in, in corporate positions where their fiduciary responsibilities, um and even their legal responsibilities. Um I think a common

00:40:52.180 - 00:41:07.010

reading of the law of Delaware where so many of the world's largest companies are incorporated uh says that officers can't put anything above the shareholders interests. Um And that's been commonly interpreted as financial interest. Uh So

00:41:07.020 - 00:41:16.610

you, you uh so, so there's lots of limits. Uh And, and I always stress this because of some experience I've had with some CEO s who found themselves in positions where what they wanted to

00:41:16.620 - 00:41:25.650

do personally was very different from what they were obligated to do uh legally. Um And in terms of their fiduciary responsibility and ultimately, in terms of the , whether or not they would keep the job or

00:41:25.660 - 00:41:37.160

someone else would say they come in and do the exact same thing they didn't want to do. Uh And so that's how, that's why I pointed you to um Latos um and Pope Francis uh because it's

00:41:37.180 - 00:41:49.930

such a realistic assessment of how to deal with these things. Um And um and in, in their emphasis, one is a lot of times in those rooms, you don't have representation from a diverse enough

00:41:49.930 - 00:42:01.210

groups for people really to have a clear vision of the impact. And, and so this is where the um not at a conscious level, but in terms of just one's understanding of reality and the impact

00:42:01.230 - 00:42:12.500

, uh it's, it's not clear, the decisions being made are actually the ones that are the best for everyone um involved. And so one thing that uh Pope Francis encyclical says, and he, he

00:42:12.510 - 00:42:24.480

was speaking um uh this is 2015. So this is why all the transpacific partnership is being negotiated, right? So you have this, this massive trade bill um whose strategic interest was to counter China,

00:42:24.490 - 00:42:37.400

which of course, and it was a legitimate interest . Uh But, but the way it was used in the room, uh which included only corporate reps and trade representatives from nation states, no one else

00:42:37.450 - 00:42:46.260

. Um It arguably a lot of the things that that had in it were not for the good for all and did not take in the full range of , of interests and goods that should have been considered

00:42:46.570 - 00:42:54.300

. Uh So what Francis says, he doesn't deny them, you know, he doesn't think we're gonna change the world. But he says, what we need to do is get into those rooms, representatives

00:42:54.310 - 00:43:07.210

from diverse populations, representing diverse perspectives and make sure all of those goods are also in the conversation um and taken seriously. So, um so, so , and then I'm sharing your point. There is

00:43:07.220 - 00:43:17.680

a realism, you know, to say the world's never gonna change um is not to say that we shouldn't engage to always make it better than it would be otherwise. Uh But to acknowledge, you know

00:43:17.690 - 00:43:29.260

, it's the whole classic problem with dirty hands that , that we're not going to be able to do something which is perfect. This is where I think um the Hebrew prophets actually are brilliant in always making

00:43:29.270 - 00:43:40.580

eschatological visions slog that that's a way of them acknowledging . I think we know in history we're never gonna be perfect. Uh We have hope in a, a perfect uh you know, perfect future, but

00:43:40.590 - 00:43:52.230

we realize that future is outside of history, outside of what we can do. Nonetheless, there's this continual call to make things, you know, as good as they can be, to keep moving forward

00:43:52.240 - 00:44:06.560

in as good a direction as possible. Um While remaining realistic about um the real world dynamics uh that are faced. So, so that is a great question. Um And uh I think um uh Francis

00:44:06.570 - 00:44:23.570

gives a good response. Um I, I think , yeah, I, I guess I'll, I'll leave it with that or let you respond um to that. Thank you. Bye. Other questions.

00:44:27.560 - 00:44:40.530

Um Carlos types in the chat, we've had more than 2000 years of imperialistic interpretation of anthropology and sociology by those celebrating lint, it seems our imperialistic leaders have usurped lint language to uphold the status quo.

00:44:40.540 - 00:44:53.820

What is your opinion? What in your opinion will turn imperialistic rule into agape rule? Great question. Um Yeah, and it's kind of linked to um the last question. Um You know, I used

00:44:53.830 - 00:45:04.840

to speak to the Texas campaign for the environment every six months and um and it's a secular group and uh and uh but for 10 years they had me in coming in. It, it turns out a

00:45:04.850 - 00:45:12.780

lot of them were actually raised, a lot of them were Southern Baptists, Texans. So a lot of them were, but, but now they're secular and, and the thing, what I found was

00:45:12.790 - 00:45:22.340

uh environmentalists, you know, when you're working um in the political realm very quickly, you, it becomes a, you know, gamesmanship, right? So you, you very much, it's the next

00:45:22.350 - 00:45:31.770

, it's the next campaign. It's this, this bill, this law, everything is happening fast and a lot of it is about maneuvering. Um And uh and then, you know, we want to

00:45:31.780 - 00:45:44.120

win, we wanna get this and I would always remind them that the precise issues they're fighting for are issues. The prophets spoke to 3000 years ago. Uh you know, about uh you know, the

00:45:44.130 - 00:45:53.910

trees of Lebanon or, or other sorts of injustices , right? And so that the focus has to be uh you know, it can't be ok, we lost the war on poverty because we still have

00:45:53.920 - 00:46:07.500

impoverished people. Uh It has to be did the great society programs result in a lot of people being better off than they would be otherwise. And can we pursue like programs with that hope? Um In

00:46:07.510 - 00:46:20.800

other words, the struggle will simply be ongoing. That's where it's linked to that last question. And we're called to the struggle out of love. Um And uh and, and, and not to win

00:46:20.810 - 00:46:32.240

and not to get on over against others. Um But out of love for all, um even if uh you know, again, a realistic assessment of how the world works. Uh And, and,

00:46:32.240 - 00:46:45.360

and just conflicts built into uh scarce resources, historic power alignments, all the sorts of things, all the systemic distortions that we live on top of, right? It's, it's to, to be moving

00:46:45.380 - 00:46:55.480

constantly again with the motivation out of love to make things better than they would have otherwise to engage in that uh struggle. Um And I'd always remind them of that and I, I would tell them also

00:46:55.490 - 00:47:05.740

, don't forget to take some walks in the wood and just enjoy yourself and take time to care for yourself because you can't too. But, but it's , it's got to be that engagement in the struggle

00:47:05.750 - 00:47:16.640

better than it would be otherwise. Um That is key. If you're focused only on total victory, you're gonna burn out and feel like a failure. Um And so, uh and um so, so

00:47:16.660 - 00:47:25.330

, you know, when you say that, uh you know, 2000 years in interpreting what, you know, what I was trying to make clear is this is what it's been from the very beginning,

00:47:25.340 - 00:47:35.910

right? This is what the passion of Jesus is . This is how Jesus ends up on the cross . Um And so, you know, we're called to um that passion and, and, and that

00:47:35.910 - 00:47:47.260

struggle um if uh uh you know, what's gonna turn it into agape rule, you know, I don't have any, I'm not sure there is an answer to that. Um It's, it's so incredibly

00:47:47.270 - 00:47:58.610

complex and multifaceted. Um And, but, and that's where I think we need people. Um I , I think, um I think it's in my other essay, the other essay that I talked about

00:47:58.620 - 00:48:07.800

that, I'm gonna make a youtube video of, I talk about how encouraging it is. Uh that both my students come from all walks of life. A lot of second students from just all walks of

00:48:07.810 - 00:48:16.380

life and our churches are full of people from all walks of life, right? So they are legislators , their lawyers, their attorneys, they, they're street workers, their teachers, they, you know

00:48:16.390 - 00:48:27.950

, which means, you know, that's where that salt of the earth sort of metaphor becomes really powerful that they can help to make a difference in all of these um uh realms, right? To,

00:48:27.950 - 00:48:37.240

to make things better than they would be otherwise to try to get this vision of agape and we can hope it will make, you know, gain more attraction, um, and games. But I'm,

00:48:37.250 - 00:48:46.830

I'm, um, I'm not, you, you know, I, I'm not optimistic that, that there's gonna be some sort of a victory. Again . I think the, the, the ancient Israelites

00:48:46.840 - 00:48:59.190

and people of other traditions as well were good to say the esch, the ESCA is esch, it is outside of history. It's not something we can bring about. It's something we can envision and hope

00:48:59.200 - 00:49:10.520

for. And, and I suggest in the end that our, our experience of that love is so powerful, I think it gives us some reasonable hope somehow it is, it is the final word for

00:49:10.530 - 00:49:23.820

each one of us. Uh But that's not something I think that, that we're going to achieve um in history. Uh That idea that we could achieve it by the way, as vanguard Marxism uh participated

00:49:23.830 - 00:49:32.570

in, right? We're gonna, we can bring about the perfect society. Uh And, and even if we have to, you know, do a lot of harm on the way the ends justify the

00:49:32.580 - 00:49:46.680

means because once we transform society by killing all these people and create this perfect society, then it'll all be great confusion on that score is that made clear , is extraordinarily dangerous, right? So this is

00:49:46.690 - 00:50:02.460

where I like um Gutierrez uh distinguishes um uh um um eschatology, eschatological visions and, and uh and uh um uh and um realism about history and the way I'm doing here, in fact, probably I'm

00:50:02.570 - 00:50:12.670

, I'm probably borrowing from him and should be gesturing this. He says, yeah, it's great to have this utopian visions. And of course, Gutierrez is very much uh reacting to what's gone wrong um

00:50:12.680 - 00:50:21.420

in the Soviet Union and other places he says, but, but you've got to realize those utopian visions , you always have to be open to correcting them . They're always out there in the future uh guiding

00:50:21.430 - 00:50:32.010

you uh forward, but they're not something you can achieve um in the near term. So work realistically in the near term or else you end up with uh both hopeless expectations and an impetus uh to a

00:50:32.020 - 00:50:46.570

presumption that, you know how things should be. And historically, that's often ended up creating a terrible harm. Um I think um the, the um I used the COVID-19 vaccines as an illustration uh because

00:50:46.580 - 00:50:58.640

I think that's, that is the case. There was a global sense that the uh Catholic um archbishop in South Africa. Um when those patent uh waivers were not granted, right? It's not a of

00:50:58.640 - 00:51:07.350

not being able to make money um uh from vaccines . Uh It's, it was a matter of, of, of whether or not you could make just massive profit or not or whether or not in a

00:51:07.360 - 00:51:15.590

case when the entire globe is at stake. Uh Then, then the decision should have been made. I would say Cyril, that's a case in which in the rooms where it happened, we did not

00:51:15.600 - 00:51:29.490

have agape uh in the greater good kind of rule . Uh because uh I mean, it didn't even make sense from a national perspective because we were allowing uh the, the, the um the virus to

00:51:29.500 - 00:51:40.660

propagate and evolve in other areas, even as you were protecting your own uh space, it didn't even make sense from a public health uh uh standpoint. So in, in places like that, I think

00:51:40.670 - 00:51:51.300

the appeal to the common good to what's the, the spirit of agape in the room uh could make a difference. The other thing I do in all my work is um and this is, I'll just

00:51:51.310 - 00:52:05.190

gesture here because it gets too deep. Um But the, the main thing I'm doing with um um Agape. Um And uh I'm, I'm pretty trying to develop something called moral realism theory. So this

00:52:05.200 - 00:52:15.140

becomes actually something that's scientifically visible and testable, but I can't get any traction for it yet. Um But is, is, is I'm trying to say this is a reality, but this is a reality

00:52:15.150 - 00:52:31.390

which is systemically alighted for modern rationality. Um And it, it, it, I I won't even start now, but just to say the, we , the, the very languages we speak, keep

00:52:31.400 - 00:52:45.060

us from affirming uh moral, the moral reality of agape, which I'm trying to affirm or what because no has said or ren or any number of things . Um This is why just a gesture, there's

00:52:45.130 - 00:52:57.160

a, what's known as a crisis of foundation in modern ethics. Um And so, um when you take an ethics course in the university, you'll get one theory after another. Uh I'm getting to proud

00:52:57.400 - 00:53:07.780

on, I'm gonna stop with that and just say there, there's another hour long semester, long lecture there. Uh But, but, but that I think does make a difference at a systemic level.

00:53:07.860 - 00:53:20.440

Uh um As I argue at the beginning of this book or my other, my last book as well in the preface or introduction, um there is a sense that globally, we have all these different religions

00:53:20.450 - 00:53:32.070

that are siloed and in competition. Um uh And , and opposed to one another. Um But in , in reality, uh amongst all of the world's religions, uh because at the heart of them all

00:53:32.080 - 00:53:45.540

is this awakening to what we signify with agape. Um There is a massive consensus about how to respond to people in need, uh what it is to love, how you treat those who are needy,

00:53:45.550 - 00:54:02.240

right? So there's a massive global uh consensus about fundamental moral calls or ethical reality. Um which if it were actually enacted in followed would make difference in just the, the the lives of billions of people

00:54:02.250 - 00:54:12.060

in fundamental ways. This doesn't mean that the quandary issues, the ethical debates that we, you know , that are kind of the flashpoint debates. Those don't get resolved. I'm not talking about that.

00:54:12.140 - 00:54:23.350

I'm talking about this massive consensus about basic, um , you know, care for others, medical care for food, shelter, clothing, education, things like that. If, if that consensus were named

00:54:23.360 - 00:54:31.230

and unveiled, I think that would have a real power globally, which right now is not there. Um, as I say in my preface, in my last book, If you go to the headquarters

00:54:31.240 - 00:54:44.470

of the UN in New York, um, and look at everything they have in the UN, you wouldn't know the world had religions, right? It's just, it's a bizarre exclusion. Um, whereas

00:54:44.480 - 00:54:55.230

on the other hand, you have a massive global consensus among religions on all of these sorts of issues that people at the UN are passionate about, why not find and resource that massive area of overlap,

00:54:55.350 - 00:55:06.490

um, as a place to be mutually affirming. Um, and, and in community and then we have our differences. That's what that other essay is about. Oh, my gosh. Uh We're almost

00:55:06.500 - 00:55:17.100

at time. Um, let's see, with another question. Uh, or Carlos. OK. Try to do Carlos. Um, yes. Um, and, and the only thing I would say that

00:55:17.110 - 00:55:28.510

I say in the, uh, in my other work is, uh I don't want it to become and this is something else that, um, feminists and womanist have really kept us to is the,

00:55:28.520 - 00:55:42.150

uh, when I am seized by Agape for every face. And I live in, in, in , in fidelity to that I'm seized for my own face as well. So I count too. Um

00:55:42.160 - 00:55:52.260

And so, uh so this, this is some , this is another place there's a problem in Lebanon where, where for him, it's the other face takes absolute priority. Um And uh which, which

00:55:52.270 - 00:56:06.380

leads to dynamics of, of, of um, of, of, of, of a, of a failure to affirm and, and own and, and um see oneself is wholly beloved as well,

00:56:06.440 - 00:56:15.930

right? And uh and so, uh I wanna be clear that, that, that, that, that I'm not looking for in that sense, this is not a self sacrifice, right? It's,

00:56:15.930 - 00:56:29.600

that, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about AAA living. Surrender to agape, which is a gracious love which has me with every other face um as well. Um And so, uh

00:56:29.610 - 00:56:44.550

so, so it's not self um negating. Um um which means if you're a situation with two people where you're being abused or you're being negated, uh then this agape calls for you to defend yourself and

00:56:44.560 - 00:56:54.760

to care for yourself. Um And, and that's different from another dangerous tradition uh which has come out of, of uh this kind of misinterpretation of, of L that I don't wanna uh appear to fall

00:56:54.770 - 00:57:14.210

into or stimulate. Yeah, Isabel Hi. So having said what, what you just said then how as pastors, how far do we go in protecting ourselves from being crucified when we are all on the

00:57:14.490 - 00:57:29.270

, the teaching end of, uh, this agape love, agape way of being the church. And , um, the message finally gets heard, it finally gets in and there's a, there's a,

00:57:29.280 - 00:57:45.440

um, retaliation or, or a disobedience or something that will not do the agape love and, and the pastor is the one that gets hit. You know, there's the pastor who gets right, you're

00:57:45.480 - 00:57:55.400

laid off or whatever. That is a great question and, and that's where in the end I'm laying out some trajectories and, and I don't have a perfect answer, right? So Jesus does end up

00:57:55.410 - 00:58:07.250

dying on the cross, right? So, doesn't that mean that's what I should do. And uh in some ways what I just said is no. So it gets tricky. I don't think everyone is

00:58:07.260 - 00:58:15.380

die is called to die. I think it's, I think, I think it, the Israelites also . I think when you look at these things and take them in as well, why do you get

00:58:15.390 - 00:58:27.890

these things? You get interesting questions when you think the classic Hebrew categories of prophet priest and king, right? People are called to different roles and, and, and they'll have different responsibilities. So I

00:58:27.900 - 00:58:37.400

really, I think he was, he was gesturing to people who are more kinks, right? And , and, and, and, but not just seeing them as somehow evil, they are caught differently

00:58:37.410 - 00:58:45.140

in the dynamic. They have different risks, right ? Their risks is to being lost in different ways . Right. Um, and then you have profits . Uh, and I think, I mean,

00:58:45.150 - 00:58:52.640

I always, you might remember this is what I tell my students. If you call, you know , pray, you're not called to be a prophet . If you are one, then you are.

00:58:52.660 - 00:59:00.190

But remember the prophet is the one who has the burning coal, they can't help themselves. And, you know, that's a, that's usually a 1 to 2 year call and then you're finished. Uh

00:59:00.200 - 00:59:12.800

So, you know, and then there's a place for uh priests who really are in a more intermediate position. Uh And, and making what to a profit will look like a compromise, right? And

00:59:12.820 - 00:59:23.010

, and of course, the king is gonna look very compromised. And so I think, uh that there's, there's, there's not an easy answer there because to some degree and sometimes you might be called

00:59:23.020 - 00:59:35.190

to be a prophet, to the degree where that really the cross is the thing. Um I just wanna make sure that it is that sort of, I can't do otherwise, sort of a moment,

00:59:35.390 - 00:59:47.480

um, that it's never done out of a uh forgetfulness of self where that's a forgetfulness of oneself as beloved. And so that, you know, yourself as beloved as Jesus, knew himself as beloved.

00:59:47.500 - 00:59:59.070

And even though you're doing this knowing full well here , here are gonna be the real world consequences, but, but to take into that assessment, not just, I automatically should do that, but to

00:59:59.080 - 00:00:00.000

take seriously the degree to which God loves you too . Uh You know, and so then maybe some people do make strategic compromises uh in the long run and, and sometimes those compromises pay off. I

00:00:00.000 - 00:00:00.000

mean, I, I gestured to Pope Francis. Right. Well, Pope Francis watched the two Popes on Netflix if you can get it. Uh Pope Francis early in his career was someone who was compromised

00:00:00.000 - 00:00:00.000

. If he had died at 35 we would have thought of him as someone who as a priest uh in the context of revolution when other priests are being killed for standing up for the poor of, of

00:00:00.000 - 00:00:00.000

uh holding his cards tight and keeping quiet and keeping safe. Uh It turns out he goes on and becomes Pope Francis and, and instigates one of the most radical sort of um you know, uh uh

00:00:00.000 - 00:00:00.000

liberation um uh motifs or, or trajectories. And maybe because of this past, right? I mean , he may, he may have grown through that he may have but, or maybe that was strategic

00:00:00.000 - 00:00:00.000

because, you know, Gustavo Gutierrez is never gonna become Pope. Um And if, if Pope Francis had been one of those, you know, uh people back then he wouldn't have been now, I

00:00:00.000 - 00:00:00.000

wouldn't have this, right. So, so I , I, I I'm constantly resisting a temptation within myself to have like a nice clean answer for everything and an oversimplification where you've got easy villains and good

00:00:00.000 - 00:00:00.000

guys. It's, it's just far more complex than that. Um And sometimes again, especially sometimes with people who um have real power and, and because of that, they don't have much freedom. Uh

00:00:00.000 - 00:00:00.000

ironically enough because they're so constructed by the power structures which are giving them power, you know, the ways they may be working to make it something better than worse that may not be visible um of,

00:00:00.000 - 00:00:00.000

of necessity, right? Because of, of, of what they're doing. So it's, it's very complex dynamic. Um And that's where I think the this graciousness um is important. Um And, and

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, but also cultivating a dope, cultivating that awakening to the faces of others. So even as you make, you know, even if you make decisions which are good for the whole and the and the

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others uh get hurt, well, you know, you better mourn those others, right? That, that better be costly. Um You know, that's where modern ethics doesn't have a place for that.

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Uh modern utilitarian calculates what's the greatest, good for the greatest number and that's what you do. And that's right, period. Um You know, I would say if you have a trolley coming down the

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track and you have a human child on one track and you have a uh you have an earthworm on the other, then you should save the uh human child and run over the earthworm. But you better

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mourn the earth worm. It's a shame you had to kill that earth worm. Right. And so if, if you get someone where they've done the right thing, period, there's no angst there,

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there's no sense. Oh my God. I have to live by grace. Now, then you have a, then, then, then that's a warning sign, right. That you have something else going

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on. Right. Um, and, uh, and of course, the way the system is built to some degree, the system is built so that those with the least compunctions about doing such things,

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have the easiest road to the top. Uh you know, and so, but that's where we have to be very understanding of folks who may be feeling uh in these complex ways but are not able to

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show that uh publicly and, and that's where it's , it's a great thing. Our churches are full of people from all these different um perspectives, all these different places. And it's so important uh to

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be understanding about the complex positions. Uh They occupy , I, I was at a lunch once with a pastor when I was an intern and uh he went to the restroom. It was a uh what's

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it called? The uh rotary club watch. And he went to the restroom and as soon as he left, one of the people said, hey, look, I've got an issue, uh this guy

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, uh you know, came to my office and quit on uh Thursday. Um But I haven't processed his paperwork and on Friday, he came in, he's got a terrible cancer diagnosis. Um, and

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he asked me to just tear up the papers. Uh, if I don't, he's gonna lose his insurance. Uh, he's not gonna have coverage. It's gonna be a disaster. On the other hand

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, he's, he's quit, he did the papers . I've got them. It's done. Uh, what do I do? Right. And, uh , you know, which is, it was a

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lot of discussion, not a clean answer there. a lot of, a lot of, of, of, of complexity. But afterwards I asked him , well, why didn't you ask that when the

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pastor was there? And he said, oh, that, that just would have killed him, right ? Well, that's, that's unfair right there. I know that pastor could have handled it. But

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sometimes we give the image of having simplistic answers only and, and people are, are hitting such a much more complex reality. So I think we need to signal that and in a case like that,

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we may not have a clean answer, but we can help to negotiate one, owning the pain no matter what you do, maybe making a decision and , and in the process living in the complexity.

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I mean, this is what it is to be fallen, right? To confess the fact that we're caught up in this and can't get out and we live by grace uh because we're caught in these situations

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. Um but to keep alive to the grace continue , you know, not because one reaction to that can be denial, uh even a strident denial. Um And then that can, then, then you

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just, you, you, you harden your heart and you become less and less sensitive to that. And then that becomes problematic. And ironically enough, you harden your heart out of an initial sensitivity uh

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that you can't, that's where the reformed emphasis on grace is so significant. Uh You know, that you only bring the judgment in the context of grace uh so that it can be uh handled. Uh

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That's where some of these abstract theological ideas, actually , you see they came out of very concrete um sorts of trying to deal with real life. I I people have to go, they have jobs like

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we all do and if anyone wants to watch this and let me discuss it, I'd love to thank you for being here and feel, feel free to follow up it. It's such a joy, by

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the way. I mean, I know almost everyone here. It's such a joy to see your names and uh uh to see you out there doing OK . So I appreciate it. It's a delight to

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and Bill, you said they could find more of this on, on youtube by just searching your name . This is on youtube. And then also I , I have the in, in, in youtube

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on the one slide you'll see the reference to two other uh youtube videos I have on Dolores Williams. Uh the womanist who uh has a, has a pretty significant take on uh atonement uh but also a

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, a, an advance in my opinion beyond Williams by another womanist. Um uh Tarell, um uh uh uh Marie Terrell. Uh and I have a video on her. So if you want something that's

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more focused on atonement theory, you can see those and then this is working off of that. Um And then there's a video that's going to be coming uh kind of a different way of looking at interfaith

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relations. Um And again, if you want to show something like this to your people as a conversation starter and then ask me to come and be in a zoom meeting for an hour. Actually do 90

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minutes an hour is too short. Uh But do 90 minutes. I would be happy. I would be happy to do that. So, yeah, thank you too and everyone for suing this up.

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Yeah, we're grateful to have everybody here again. Thank you, Bill, join me and thank you Bill as well, everybody. Um Next week, come back, join us again on March 7th.

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We'll be with Eric Wall. He'll be discussing songs along the way. Music in the Linton journey. So, uh we hope that you can make it back with us next week as well. Grateful for

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your time and presence here again, Bill. Thank you so much and blessings to you all. Nice to see you. Thank you. Bye bye.